suggestion Dynamic Indoor Temperature

[Ghurcb]

I've had this idea stuck in my head for quite some time. The Lond Dark is a game about surviving in a cold environment. There's snow and blizzards, and you have to wear warm clothes. So when you're outside, your biggest concern is the temperature. But what about indoor locations?
Somehow, every house is always warm. Even Mountaineer's Hut is warmer then the outside, despite there being a giant hole in the roof. Upon finding a house, you don't have to worry about freezing, so the only time you'd start a fire is when you need water or food.

What's my suggestion? Buildings should lose temperature over time. This would continue until the temperature outside is the same as inside. To battle this, fires should warm buildings up. This way, you'd have to actually burn some fuel to keep your shelter warm.
The rate at which a building gets colder would depend on how well insulated it is. This way, Camp Office, for example, would only lose 1°C per 12 hours, while the Mountaineer's Hut would lose 5°C per hour (which is still too generous, but hey, it's a game). How effective fires are at raising the indoor temperature should depend on the size of the location. Trapper's Cabin, being a rather small house, would recieve 10% of fire's temperature per hour, but some big location, like Carter Hydro Dam would recieve the same 10% over 24 hours. Not to make Mountaineer's Hut (and other buildings like it) useless, houses wouldn't lose any temperature, while a fire is burning inside. If you can light two fires in the same shelter, their effect should stack.

Of course, all these values would change, depending on the difficulty, and the whole thing would be optional in custom settings. The examples I've listed, is how I'd like for it to work on Stalker. On Pilgrim, managing the indoor temperature would take almost no effort. On Interloper... Ehh, it's difficult enough already, maybe this change could be balanced by making clothes and matches spawn more often.

[Ghurcb]

Oh, and if a house doesn't have a fireplace/stove/etc. you can use a lantern or a flare to heat it up. I guess it logically follows that you could also use torches, but this can be exploited way too easily. Torches are generally a bit OP, but that's a rant for another day.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Ghurcb

[Leeanda]

As I understand it ,a lot of the temp is from wind chill ,which obviously isn't going to affect interiors. The exception being places like mountaineers hut.  There's also variations of temp indoors already -  some at 0c and some at +c temps (even identical buildings occasionally have different temps. )

[Stone]

I do like this idea - it makes sense. I don't think the impact would be huge though as buildings are pretty warm already. But I'd favour some linear decrees over days if the building isn't drafty. The mountaineers hut would always be cold in minutes without a fire.

I'd like cast iron woodburners to stay warm for a few hours too. 

[Ghurcb]

On 5/25/2022 at 12:57 PM, Leeanda said:

There's also variations of temp indoors already -  some at 0c and some at +c temps (even identical buildings occasionally have different temps. )

Yeah, but it's not like those temperature variations force you to actually do something about them. What I propose is that there should be a strong incentive to collect wood and burn it even when you don't have to cook something. One of the biggest parts of "living off the grid" is making sure you harvest enough wood to last you through winter, and if you don't... THAT'S when the survival starts.

[Leeanda]

Just now, Ghurcb said:

Yeah, but it's not like those temperature variations force you to actually do something about them. What I propose is that there should be a strong incentive to collect wood and burn it even when you don't have to cook something. One of the biggest parts of "living off the grid" is making sure you harvest enough wood to last you through winter, and if you don't... THAT'S when the survival starts.

That's only going to affect voyager upwards really though.  The temps I've had (lowest so far is -39c outside) on pilgrim don't warrant fires indoors. . So unless the devs change the settings for all levels  I can't see it happening.  But  you have a valid point and yes in real life you'd freeze to death .   Or make your own solar panels😊

[Admin]

Thanks for sharing your suggestion. There are no current plans to alter this further in the game, but we will certainly provide an update if that changes. Please don't hesitate to reach out with additional recommendations! 

[Ghurcb]

15 hours ago, Leeanda said:

That's only going to affect voyager upwards really though. 

That would be perfect!

Pilgrim shouldn't be made harder. It's an easy difficulty, and it's supposed to be easy. I wouldn't want to force brutal survival on someone who didn't ask for it.

Stalker is presented as a hard difficulty, a "punishing experience", but it's really medium. I don't know, it's just my opinion, maybe my skill is too high. I'd love to see it made harder, and the changing indoor temperature is a great, not superficial way of accomplishing it. 

While voyager won't be made much harder by this change, it will introduce an interesting challenge. On voyager, even without wind, temperatures can get pretty low. If your base becomes as cold as the outside (minus the windchill), it will become a problem.

And interloper. Oh, interloper... I love the harsh weather of it. And having to craft your own tools and clothes is great. But for me it's ruined by the lack of loot. Seriously, it feels like 95% of all containers are empty. Searching houses is TEDIOUS. This is exactly the superficial difficulty I mentioned before. Is this necessary for interloper to be as difficult as it is? Yes. But I would much rather prefer a meaningful and exciting challenge. And having to fight off the cold even when you're inside a shelter would be just the right thing. 

[Leeanda]

Why don't you just tweak the custom settings for loot?   If it feels too much like cheating just remove something else to compensate, like deer?

[Ghurcb]

1 hour ago, Leeanda said:

Why don't you just tweak the custom settings for loot?   If it feels too much like cheating just remove something else to compensate, like deer?

Oh, I don't mind using custom settings at all, I've been thinking about starting sort of a Stalkerloper run after I'm done with the current one. I just think that Interloper could benefit from a difficulty based more around the world being dangerous, rather than resources being extremely scarce. If you had to worry about keeping your house warm, maybe matches, fuel and clothing could spawn more often. And then searching houses wouldn't feel so boring.

[Leeanda]

You could just put  restrictions on yourself. As you said stalker/loper . Just take your clothes off as soon as you get inside and don't put them back on until you leave permanently?  That way it'll force you to keep the house warm. 

It can actually get boring finding too much loot too.  

Edited May 27, 2022 by Leeanda

[Razum]

As suggested here https://hinterlandforums.com/forums/topic/41423-this-is-for-the-long-dark/ I would add the mechanic that you can (and need to) repair houses. For example the roof in Mountaineer's hut. I really like the sound during storms of the house making noises and stuff. I think, repairing houses holds so much potential as a game mechanic. When you repair it, it becomes quieter and better isolated, so it stays longer warm after a fire.
Overall, I really want this in the game as it is a logical thing and would be a really cool mechanic. But would also make the start of a run more difficult (especially on interloper) as you don't have the resources to start and maintain fire all the time (and with my bonus: to repair the houses). To compensate, I would add some blanket (has been suggested a few times), so that you raise the bed warmth bonus.

[FailSyst3m]

I also suggested this in my post (balancing): https://hinterlandforums.com/forums/topic/41941-what-do-you-think-survival-mode-needs-the-most-for-his-next -patchdlc/. I was pretty sure it wasn't a "one of a kind" idea, because of the aspect of the game who makes this mechanic perfectly logical and also because we cant build shelter/house.

[Kranium]

A windproof shelter + adequate clothing = warm enough. Body heat works wonders. Even in -40C temps here, simply going into our un-heated feed shed after being outside tending to our horses is enough to massively warm yourself up. The snow I tracked in will even melt by the time I finish my whiskey. lol

 

That said, tweaks would be great & more realistic. The larger the space, the less inherent warmth/harder to heat it up. I'd also love to be able to do repairs. And little things, such as opening or closing curtains (or removing them totally for cloth) should affect indoor temps. Think: drafts, incoming radiant heat via sunlight vs. outgoing at night. Hanging animal skins on walls for insulation. Chimney fires burning down your comfy cabin you've built, after too many fires without cleaning it with a cleaning log. Making a sleeping bag with 2 blankets sewn together with cattail head fluff in between for insulation. Toasters & stoves working during auroras to cook & heat interiors with. I could go on all day...

[ajb1978]

I would be in favor of this as a mod or a Custom mode setting, and I know that the core functionality of varying interior temperatures already exists in the game. During the last Four Days of Night challenge, the final day featured a nonstop, never-ending blizzard and interior temps were like -30 or something. The idea being that you couldn't just wait out the last couple hours of the challenge by leaving your character standing idle indoors for two real-time hours.

Another thing I noticed was the Lookout in CH, the interior temperature will sometimes go up by 2 degrees C if you enter and exit the upper Cinder Hills coal mine. I don't know what it is, but when it works, it works every time. -3C interior temperature, go to the mine and immediately return to the Lookout, -1C interior temperature. But then other times, it just won't work at all. Very weird little bug, and it might have something to do with the Cold Fusion feat since last time I tested it was on a throwaway Pilgrim run with that feat active.

As for heating/cooling an interior location, different places could have different volumetric heat capacities to act as a kind of multiplier. The higher the value, the longer it takes to heat up, and the longer it holds heat. Someplace like the Pleasant Valley Farmhouse could take hours to completely heat up, but then it would hold that heat for a lot longer (possibly several days). Between being heavily insulated (it's a house in Canada, of course it's heavily insulated), all of the walls and furniture inside the house retaining heat, and because that basement provides a pocket of air between the warm house and cold ground. Someplace like the Mountaineer Hut would heat up very quickly but wouldn't get as warm, and once that fire is out it'll be stone cold in a matter of minutes. No insulation, no basement, not to mention the gaping hole in the roof. Forestry lookouts and the insides of cars would warm up on sunny days of their own accord, thanks to the greenhouse effect.

As for base-building or improvements, I wouldn't mind a system like Skyrim Hearthfire, where you have a drafting table and can pick what you want to build for your home from a menu and any purchased upgrades appear in predefined locations. Using the Mountaineer Hut as an example, "Repair Roof" would absolutely be an option. And then some other things to make the place more homey, like a cabinet next to the front door, more shelves, a firewood bin outside, gun rack over the fireplace, outdoor windproof firepit, stack the two beds into one bunk bed to free up some floor space, etc. Maybe have a set of choices for different locations, like replacing the wood shelf with a dresser or something, but only one can exist at any given time.

[StillNomad]

I agree with the suggestion that indoor temps be dynamic and more in sync with the type of shelter it is. It totally makes sense. Not only would it be more realistic, but it also gives us a challenge to keep maintaining it. Will it mean more of a chore to keep fixing stuff or will it give more meaning in late game? 

I also like the suggestion above of a drafting table and creating more QoL stuff. ( a feature that exists in Among Trees, but I dont want it to be that easy and I dont want it going all out base building either). TLD is a fantastic game that is already on a knife's edge of being rustic, barren, basic, difficult and has enough features to retain those qualities while there is a constant suggestion to add stuff, some of which the devs have brought in while some suggestions will sort of topple it from the knife's edge making it a totally different game and not TLD. 

[Semple Fi]

On 6/10/2022 at 4:03 PM, ajb1978 said:

I Forestry lookouts and the insides of cars would warm up on sunny days of their own accord, thanks to the greenhouse effect.

Something to add…

I’ve noticed in real life that as the sun comes out and warms the outside environment, staying inside can actually be COLDER than outdoor ambient temperature.  
After all, if the building is well insulated and there is no light or heat source inside, it will actually maintain the colder temperature.  
 

Would be an interesting tweak; freezing inside but you warm up in the snowy outdoors.  

[Ghurcb]

On 6/17/2022 at 11:11 PM, Semple Fi said:

Something to add…

I’ve noticed in real life that as the sun comes out and warms the outside environment, staying inside can actually be COLDER than outdoor ambient temperature.  
After all, if the building is well insulated and there is no light or heat source inside, it will actually maintain the colder temperature.  
 

Would be an interesting tweak; freezing inside but you warm up in the snowy outdoors.  

That's how I initially though it should work. That the indoor temperature would follow the outdoor temperature at a rate that depends on how insulated it is. Then, if the outside gets warmer than the inside, the inside of the building will take some time to warm up.
But it also seemed unnecessarily complicated. It takes way less calculations for the indoor temperature to just be equal to that of the outdoors, once it reaches this point.

Although, maybe even this way it takes too much computing. That might be the reason why Hinterland aren't planning on updating this system.

On 5/27/2022 at 12:50 AM, Admin said:

Thanks for sharing your suggestion. There are no current plans to alter this further in the game, but we will certainly provide an update if that changes. Please don't hesitate to reach out with additional recommendations! 

Or maybe it's just way too late to bring this big change so late in the development.
I don't know, I still think it would be cool if they tried to...

Edited September 1, 2022 by Ghurcb

[odizzido]

What we should be encouraging is mod support. Have the game nice and easily modable and we will have everything like this.

[Semple Fi]

17 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

That's how I initially though it should work. That the indoor temperature would follow the outdoor temperature at a rate that depends on how insulated it is. Then, if the outside gets warmer than the inside, the inside of the building will take some time to warm up.
But it also seemed unnecessarily complicated. It takes way less calculations for the indoor temperature to just be equal to that of the outdoors, once it reaches this point.

Although, maybe even this way it takes too much computing. That might be the reason why Hinterland aren't planning on updating this system.

Or maybe it's just way too late to bring this big change so late in the development.
I don't know, I still think it would be cool if they tried to...

Now if they could just include a sun burn and snow blindness into the mix…..

[Ghurcb]

6 hours ago, Semple Fi said:

Now if they could just include a sun burn and snow blindness into the mix…..

I think sunburn would be the last one of your concerns when you're covered in clothes head to toe. And if you're not, well, there's already frostbite to be worried about.

[Semple Fi]

4 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

I think sunburn would be the last one of your concerns when you're covered in clothes head to toe. And if you're not, well, there's already frostbite to be worried about.

But you’re on board with snow blindness! 👍🏼👍🏼

[javijungle]

Sun and snow effects over the character its a good idea for more realistic sensations. Snow sunglasses could be usefull for protect your eyes in long trips over snow with sunny days, luckly the game  is not so sunny on hardest difficulties, perhaps it will be usefull for blizzards too.

Currently the game algorithmically control the temperature of in-game objects and affects the character's thermical sensation based on those objects in the same way that putting on wet pants is not the same as dry pants, the houses could do the same.

Finally, it would be necessary to include a doctorate in physics and climatology in the Hinterland staff

[Ghurcb]

On 6/17/2022 at 7:42 PM, StillNomad said:

I also like the suggestion above of a drafting table and creating more QoL stuff. ( a feature that exists in Among Trees, but I dont want it to be that easy and I dont want it going all out base building either).

Wow, I recently started playing this game and it's SO AMAZING. From the screenshots I expected it to be very similar to TLD, but they are nothing alike. I really hope that its development will continue, because otherwise it would be such a waisted potential.

As to the drafting table, I'm spit on whether or not it would fit The Long Dark. On one hand, improving your house, fixing the holes, adding stuff sounds like a lot of fun. But in the other, having a drafting table in every house would ruin the grounded atmosphere TLD has. Maybe this function could be given to the workbench?

(here are some screenshots from Among Trees steam page)

Edited September 13, 2022 by Ghurcb

[odizzido]

Ah it looks like Among Trees was never finished from what I am reading and the devs have no plans to work on it. That's too bad, it looks kinda nifty.