"recycled" cans

[AdamvR]

I'm pretty sure this should have been on this list before, as I've seen it in other forums elsewhere discussed.
I've tried avoiding to reopen a topic, that may already have had its history here, but after a couple of search attempts - still no luck. sorry if "necroing" - I've tried:)

I'd really like to be able to actually recycle the cans into scrap metal.
Maybe I'd need 3-4-5 cans + using the saw once (-5% condition and takes a little while) to create one scrap metal.
Given the current amount of scrappable metal furniture in the map, I do not think it would mess up the current balance much (perhaps adds a few % more).
I also estimate it to need a really tiny amount of work from development (likely one more page in the crafting menu with the related background recipe, no new mechanic. could simply choose the 3-4-5 cans with worst conditions automatically)
If I could actually get rid off the cans, instead of just piling everywhere and using them for something good would be really lovely (and realistic).
other thoughts:
- it also adds a decision point whether to keep them for later as boil-cups or sacrifice for a bit of metal, so adds to gameplay
- having to use the saw for it makes it a not so easy "cheat" in the beginning, while, once you do have the saw it is just a bit more metal available.
- exact amount of cans needed for the recipe should be decided by the Devs, as they have a better overview of all possible metal in the game / how much the cans would add to it - to keep it balanced. I'd really only add a few %, that is not the primary point for me.

what do you think?
 

[Pyroxene]

So you could, in fact then, use cans to repair rifles and the like?

[odizzido]

It kinda makes sense. If we assume everything is made out of aluminum that would go a long way to explaining why everything gets destroyed so quickly.

[AdamvR]

10 hours ago, Pyroxene said:

So you could, in fact then, use cans to repair rifles and the like?

If you carry it to Bleak Inlet, then yes, otherwise you need the special tool for repairing guns.

But you can also in the end melt them in the forge (I would not allow that directly, without sawing first, as that would make it too easy).

Also, I think it is important that you need multiple cans for a single piece of scrapped metal - to keep it balanced. (i.e. the equivalent of a bucket/toaster) Maybe even more than 5.

[Sherlock Holmes 18]

Or is this idea going to bring you the skill of blacksmithing in the game? 😲😲😲😲😲

[Stoutlander]

From a realistic standpoint, there wouldn't be much you can do with tin cans. They are too thin for use as scrap metal. 

[Sherlock Holmes 18]

There's a lot of metal tools in the game. Or we could use these stuff. 

[ManicManiac]

I've given this topic a while to "breath", so now I'll weigh in on it with my opinion.
For the most part my opinion has remained consistent over the years... so I will echo (and update) what I've discussed in the past:

On 12/7/2018 at 5:30 AM, ManicManiac said:

I suppose also as another pointed out it would be basically junk aluminum...

On 5/6/2019 at 12:31 AM, ManicManiac said:

and I think that aluminum would not be very useful as "scrap metal."  The recycled cans I think have the same issue... they'd be mostly just aluminum and I think aluminum would not be good for making any meaning full tools or repairs with it (in the context of the game's crafting/repair systems anyway).

On 9/13/2019 at 11:32 PM, ManicManiac said:

We probably wouldn't reasonably get anything really usable from aluminum cans.  As others have mentioned, metal is already really abundant (especially once you find a hacksaw - as well as when we can go beachcombing).  We already know of at least one survivor who had managed to survive 10 in-game years on Interloper, so I can say with some confidence that there's no shortage of metal.

On 5/29/2020 at 12:30 AM, ManicManiac said:

No... I don't think we'd really want to be using cheap aluminum for the kind of things we'd likely be trying to use "scrap metal" for.

 

Considering that we've seen at least one player who managed to survive in an Interloper run for 10 in-game years... I'd say that there isn't any shortage of metal.  Also I don't think scrap aluminum would at all be equitable to steel in the context of what scrap metal is used for in the game.

I think that being able to transmute aluminum cans into "scrap metal" would only serve to make the game a little easier for the player... and I'm rarely in favor of things I think would just make life easier for the player.

Edited February 5, 2021 by ManicManiac

[Stoutlander]

30 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I've given this topic a while to "breath", so now I'll weigh in on it with my opinion.
For the most part my opinion has remained consistent over the years... so I will echo (and update) what I've discussed in the past:

 

Considering that we've seen at least one player who managed to survive in an Interloper run for 10 in-game years... I'd say that there isn't any shortage of metal.  Also I don't think scrap aluminum would at all be equitable to steel in the context of what scrap metal is used for in the game.

I think that being able to transmute aluminum cans into "scrap metal" would only serve to make the game a little easier for the player... and I'm rarely in favor of things I think would just make life easier for the player.

Who was talking about aluminum?

[ManicManiac]

@Stoutlander

Most folks talking about canned goods since about 1957...
Even if those folks don't realize it, the large majority of "tin" cans have been predominately made of aluminum for quite a long time now. 

The transition to aluminum (rather than steel -aka "tin plate" cans) was motivated by many things...

• light weight
• competitive cost
• usage of easy-open ends
• clean appearance
• aluminum does not rust
• easy to press into shape

So... are there still steel tin-plated cans made... perhaps some.  However, very few relative to the vast number made of aluminum for the last 30-50 years or so.  Therefore, I'd posit that's reasonable to say that the canned goods we find are very likely made of aluminum.

Edited February 5, 2021 by ManicManiac

[AdamvR]

50 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I've given this topic a while to "breath", so now I'll weigh in on it with my opinion.
For the most part my opinion has remained consistent over the years... so I will echo (and update) what I've discussed in the past:

 

Considering that we've seen at least one player who managed to survive in an Interloper run for 10 in-game years... I'd say that there isn't any shortage of metal.  Also I don't think scrap aluminum would at all be equitable to steel in the context of what scrap metal is used for in the game.

I think that being able to transmute aluminum cans into "scrap metal" would only serve to make the game a little easier for the player... and I'm rarely in favor of things I think would just make life easier for the player.

I kinda feel you have reacted to what you thought was written there, instead of what actually was written there.
Neither have I mentioned, nor do I think that it would make anything easier + have pointed out twice that my goal is not to increase the amount of metal, as there is plenty. I pointed that out. twice.

I just want to not pile the cans, but recycle. an empty can is empty = garbage = not recycled.
Adding some use to them.

And the tirade about AluminIum, I think that is missing the point for multiple reasons:
1 ) cans are not only made of aluminIum, 
2 ) AluminIum is a very valuable metal
3 ) the whole question is absolutely irrelevant, as not all textile is the same - yet the game treats it so. not only fish have fat - yet the game treats them so. rosehips are not painkillers yet the game treats them so. and we love it for it, as it is a game. and we are not expecting it to be perfectly mimicking reality.
Am I saying anything new to you here...?

Edited February 5, 2021 by AdamvR

[ManicManiac]

@AdamvR

I fully read what you've written.  However, I fundamentally disagree with the idea of being able to transmute recycled cans into scrap metal.
I've not missing the point, I just don't agree with what has been put forth...  I'm also just making a point that I think the idea hadn't really taken into account.  So I brought it up as among the reasons why I don't agree with the idea.
 

17 minutes ago, AdamvR said:

1 ) cans are not only made of aluminIum, 

Sure, but as I point out in my last post:
"So... are there still steel tin-plated cans made... perhaps some.  However, very few relative to the vast number made of aluminum for the last 30-50 years or so.  Therefore, I'd posit that's reasonable to say that the canned goods we find are very likely made of aluminum. "

17 minutes ago, AdamvR said:

2 ) AluminIum is a very valuable metal

Perhaps valuable in a monetary sense... or a light manufacturing material... but I think it's reasonable to say that both of those systems collapse in the wake of the First Flare (and certainly already in serious decline following the description of the "Great Collapse" in referenced backstory of Great Bear Island).
But not really useful for fixing steel tools... or crafting tools... or repairing firearms (mostly comprised of steel)... et cetera.

17 minutes ago, AdamvR said:

3 ) the whole questions is absolutely irrelevant

This part I agree with... but not necessarily for the same reason.
However the rest seems to be making an implication that isn't there.  You are correct that the realism doesn't much mater, and I have a long history of supporting that very sentiment.  However, I only mentioned some of that rational to help explain why I don't like the idea of recycled can being transmuted to scrap metal.

In the end... I think I made the core reason behind my opinion rather clear:
"Considering that we've seen at least one player who managed to survive in an Interloper run for 10 in-game years... I'd say that there isn't any shortage of metal...

...I think that being able to transmute aluminum cans into "scrap metal" would only serve to make the game a little easier for the player, and I'm rarely in favor of things I think would just make life easier for the player."

We don't agree, and that's okay... I just wanted to weigh in on the subject with my opinion, just like everyone else who posted here.

Edited February 5, 2021 by ManicManiac

[AdamvR]

1 minute ago, ManicManiac said:

"So... are there still steel tin-plated cans made... perhaps some.  However, very few relative to the vast number made of aluminum for the last 30-50 years or so.  Therefore, I'd posit that's reasonable to say that the canned goods we find are very likely made of aluminum. "

 

toasters and lamps are also likely made of aluminIum, and I do not see anyone complaining that they want them removed from scrappable items, as they are too weak to repair guns. Also, I think steel is too hard to make hooks of with your hands. especially 3 pieces. so what?

 

4 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

I think that being able to transmute aluminum cans into "scrap metal" would only serve to make the game a little easier for the player... and I'm rarely in favor of things I think would just make life easier for the player."

 

Sorry, I do not see how this comment is fitting here, at all.
What would get easier? and what do you mean by "only"?

Can you please shed some light here...? (I'm genuinely curious)

[ManicManiac]

For those who simply don't like having a large number of recycled cans... if we "smash" open cans, after we consume the food inside no recycled can results.  The smashed can is effectively "ruined" and de-spawns.

This option becomes available when we don't have a can opener, axe, or knife in our inventory.

So when we don't want to accumulate a recycled can, we don't have to.

[AdamvR]

8 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

For those who simply don't like having a large number of recycled cans... if we "smash" open cans, after we consume the food inside no recycled can results.  The smashed can is effectively "ruined" and de-spawns.

This option becomes available when we don't have a can opener, axe, or knife in our inventory.

So when we don't want to accumulate a recycled can, we don't have to.

thanks, this would actually had made sense.
had my sentence finished here:
I just want to not pile the cans

but it went on:
I just want to not pile the cans, but recycle. an empty can is empty = garbage = not recycled.
Adding some use to them.
(i.e. they are called "recycled cans" in the game. they are not recycled. they are just empty)

thanks anyway for your time and sharing your view.:)

Edited February 5, 2021 by AdamvR

[ManicManiac]

12 minutes ago, AdamvR said:

toasters and lamps are also likely made of aluminIum, and I do not see anyone complaining that they want them removed from scrappable items, as they are too weak to repair guns. Also, I think steel is too hard to make hooks of with your hands. especially 3 pieces. so what?

All fair points...
However, for me... once Hinterland makes a decision about what to incorporate into their game, I respect their decision.  There's are many things about the game that I could argue against based on my own personal opinions.  However, I don't do that because over all I enjoy what Hinterland has made and I will respect their creative decisions.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't voice my opinion when others make suggestions I don't agree with. 
 

12 minutes ago, AdamvR said:

Can you please shed some light here...? (I'm genuinely curious)

Certainly, I would be happy to.

I like the game for the struggle... I like not always having the resources I need and to have to go out searching/scrounging for them.  In my opinion, having the ability to just break down cans for scrap metal would make metal just way too abundant and easy.  Therefore, in my opinion... it's a convenience that would only end up making the game easier/more convenient  for the player.

I mean no offense to anyone... these are just my thoughts on this particular idea.
I think that scrap metal is already reasonably abundant (even in Interloper), and I wouldn't want it to even more abundant than it already is.

Edited February 5, 2021 by ManicManiac

[ManicManiac]

4 minutes ago, AdamvR said:

but it went on:
I just want to not pile the cans, but recycle. an empty can is empty = garbage = not recycled.
Adding some use to them.
(i.e. they are called "recycled cans" in the game. they are not recycled. they are just empty)

thanks anyway for your time and sharing your view.:)

Fair enough


I also appreciate you taking the time to discuss it with me.

 

[AdamvR]

38 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

once Hinterland makes a decision about what to incorporate into their game, I respect their decision.  There's are many things about the game that I could argue against based on my own personal opinions.  However, I don't do that because over all I enjoy what Hinterland has made and I will respect their creative decisions.

I also especially value how much thought is invested in this game to make the decisions matter and how much is invested to keep it balanced.
I do value their decisions pretty much.
Hinterland probably values Hinterland's decisions as well.
All previous ones.
Up until the point, when they decide to change something because many people had asked for it.
Such as reducing the mushroom tea recipe requirements from 3 to 2.
Or adding a second gun.
Or making crampons repairable.
Or changing the storymode.
Or adding a place to make more ammo, which practically changed the whole game.
I do not agree with all necessarily, but they did change it.
And I respect their opinion to have changed it.
Apparently they are curious what people think, and have created a site to hear these opinions with a forum called wish list.
And I respect their opinion to be curious about it.

my point being: respecting it does not mean it must be followed dogmatically, as even Hinterland adjusts previous decisions. And thoughts expressed on a wish list can be given actual thought apart from automatic pushback with the cover story of "I respect what there is and thereby any change is just making it easier."
(I agree, many suggestions are just making things easier, and would not vote for them myself either. but not all).

and for the 6th time on this page: having 5% more metal does not change the game, does not make it easier, and it is not my point with the suggestion.
If there are 1000 pieces, and it becomes 1050 pieces, while you are only ever using 200, makes no difference what so ever.
Actually i would have suggested to remove equal amount of sawable items to make it completely unchanged, but I do believe that would be much more work, than adding one page to the crafting menu. thereby, having thought it through, I suggested to make it so in a way, that it does not change the balance much, by requiring multiple cans for 1 scrap metal AND the use of the saw. very specifically for not to making it easier.

I do still stand by, that it does not make the game any easier.

Edited February 5, 2021 by AdamvR

[Stoutlander]

1 hour ago, ManicManiac said:

@Stoutlander

Most folks talking about canned goods since about 1957...
Even if those folks don't realize it, the large majority of "tin" cans have been predominately made of aluminum for quite a long time now. 

The transition to aluminum (rather than steel -aka "tin plate" cans) was motivated by many things...

• light weight
• competitive cost
• usage of easy-open ends
• clean appearance
• aluminum does not rust
• easy to press into shape

So... are there still steel tin-plated cans made... perhaps some.  However, very few relative to the vast number made of aluminum for the last 30-50 years or so.  Therefore, I'd posit that's reasonable to say that the canned goods we find are very likely made of aluminum.

Evidently you don't purchase many canned goods. Beverages and some canned meats are packed in aluminum cans, and we don't get cans from these in-game. Maybe the 'wiki" page you looked at told you all those supposed facts about cans, but I know that the soups, canned veggies, baked beans, and others I have here in my house are in fact what we call "tin" cans, not aluminum. The current aluminum shortage is negatively effecting the canned beverage industry, not the canned food industry. An overwhelming majority of canned foods in the world use steel cans, not aluminum.

Your point is wrong because it is based on raw numbers of cans instead of the items being canned. More beverages are canned than food is, so the raw number is that there are more aluminum cans than steel. The items that we get cans from in game are because they are tin cans, not aluminum. As far as your last couple of sentances, you are very mistaken.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Stoutlander

[ManicManiac]

@Stoutlander

Fair enough, I may be mistaken on the prevalence of steel cans vs aluminum; I'd grant that...
If you're more personally familiar with modern industrial practices, I tip my hat to you.

Regardless, I'm still of the opinion that there isn't a need for this particular change.  I appreciate the balance, that Hinterland has achieved already.  I also think that given the availability of scrap metal already in the game,  using recycled cans as a source of scrap metal would make it a resource that was just far too cheap and easy to obtain (again just my opinion).  I prefer the mechanics of gathering scrap metal the way they are at present.

Edited February 6, 2021 by ManicManiac

[Schrodingers Box]

I cannot for the life of me understand why you would want to recycle a can into probably the single most abundant infinite resource in the entire game. 
  Hinterland is brilliant in the game design with true lack of redundancy. That’s why this is not and will not be a feature. 

[ManicManiac]

2 hours ago, AdamvR said:

I also especially value how much thought is invested in this game

I did was not trying to imply that you didn't.
If it came off that way, that certainly wasn't my intention.

 

2 hours ago, AdamvR said:

my point being: respecting it does not mean it must be followed dogmatically, as even Hinterland adjusts previous decisions. And thoughts expressed on a wish list can be given actual thought

There have been ideas here that I have very much supported... the other's I have just weighed in on with my perspective.

I think it's equally valuable for any developer to hear from both sides of an idea or opinion.  I seem to have a much different perspective on the game as a whole than a lot of people on the forum.  Which I suppose has caused some to assume I'm against changing anything... which is not the case.

I've not objected to anything they've added or changed, even though I've not always agreed with it at the time.  Instead, I choose to accept those things, and take on the challenge of adapting my playstyle.

In the end, I trust Hinterland to do what they think is best for their game... so if they see fit to change things, then great. 

I do feel (that at least to some degree) I can understand and appreciate the choices that Hinterland has made with their game... and I think a voice expressing that is not harmful.  I don't condemn other's for their opinions, I just don't always agree with them.

  

2 hours ago, AdamvR said:

Apparently they are curious what people think

Right, I agree.
Just as everyone is free to express their ideas on things they'd like to see introduced or changed about the game... I think folks also have the right to express their opinions regardless of whether they agree or disagree with those ideas.

I think all ideas should be able to be discussed.  I also think that all opinions of those ideas ought to be heard as well... both those in favor and not in favor.

Whether I agree or disagree with an idea, it's not personal (at least not from my end). 

Edited February 6, 2021 by ManicManiac