A better way to increase challenge from Interloper in The Long Dark

[Gun Tech.]

It's very simple to implement:

1. Increase the number of wolf/wildlife spots per region, while heeding the same RNG settings for them.
2. Increase the number of Loot Tables, while heeding the same RNG settings for loot chance.

And it will make the survival experience much richer:

#1 will make the player play cautiously and observe wildlife, instead of as now, memorizing the spots and learning the routes to check for them safely or bypass them completely.

#2 iff increased from 4 to at least 16 or 32, will make players less sure of their fate (awesome and the reason why I don't play by them) and will prevent taking the minimum risk route from 2 items found to get all the loot (Hammer, Hacksaw, Bedroll...) super early.

In addition, it would make each run feel like a unique adventure, and that would be a great ❤️ attraction for players who have put hundreds or even thousands of hours into the game. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Gun Tech.

[dbmurph22]

I believe you're right on.

I actually think you could fulfill your goals too, by not increasing spawn areas or loot tables, but keeping the base of each but adding some sort of variable spawn/table on top.  What I mean is, keep same wolf patrol grids, but have maybe 10 spots/region that are variable in which 1-4 of them, randomly determined will have a furry visitor.  You can increase the richness not through the actual elements, but the possibilities of elements.  You actually may be already saying something similar to that.

And yeah, I think any way of also causing less memorization of loot tables fits in the same vein.

I might add maybe adding some extra variance to wolf behavior, but they are doing a bit more of that now (seeing a lot more random wolf fear than a couple years ago). But I think keep giving attention to that, especially with how they interact with different items.  It's tricky though, because you want to add variability and cause players to make a risk calculus, but there's certainly a bridge too far in getting just pointlessly killed through RNG with a heavy cost is rough.  It's tough to know where that point is.

Also, I think players get a certain satisfaction with learning the routes and tables and you want to retain some satisfaction in achievement of that, but yeah you're absolutely right in that any way there could be more emphasis on principles of survival in the game skill, rather than memorization would be a plus.  I think you have some good ideas.

[ManicManiac]

@Gun Tech.

"A better way to increase challenge from Interloper in The Long Dark..."

I think the answer is very simple, just apply a little bit of Player Choice.

In my opinion, there is no need to change the game for everyone, when an individual player can simply change the way they choose to play.

A player giving themselves personal challenges or extra provisos/rules have all done well at making the game  better for me without having to ask Hinterland to change the game for everyone else...

I say this, because while you may think the contents of this thread would make the game better for you... does not mean that everyone else would feel the same way.

Edited December 18, 2020 by ManicManiac

[dbmurph22]

I would say make it interloper only or a custom option then.

I agree that a) the game is already great and b) a player can and should customize their experience without wishlisting everything.  They can make their own challenges and that's been done in spades (see Bleak Existence!)

That said, you can't get blood from a turnip. There's no way to simulate the kind of experience that would exist in a baseline situation of the above proposal.

You have a good opinion because player customization is a huge part of the game, but @ManicManiac you're not taking a position of flexibility/player choice vs. someone else's imposition of their will on others.  They are both impositions of will and opinions of how one would want to see the game.  The status quo is an of itself its own imposition.

I say this because you had a valuable opinion, but there was a bit of unnecessary morality to your argument, IMO.

[ManicManiac]

12 minutes ago, dbmurph22 said:

You have a good opinion because player customization is a huge part of the game, but @ManicManiac you're not taking a position of flexibility/player choice vs. someone else's imposition of their will on others.  They are both impositions of will and opinions of how one would want to see the game.  The status quo is an of itself its own imposition.

I say this because you had a valuable opinion, but there was a bit of unnecessary morality to your argument, IMO.

I don't think mine is an imposition... it's just speaking to the other side of an option.  I don't impose anything on anyone, just voicing my opinion in response to another opinion that I don't agree with.  I also think it's valuable for a developer to hear both opinions for and against a proposed idea.

For me there is no morality attached to it at all...  I was simply pointing out that in this game, the player has a remarkable power to be able to change their game experience simply by choosing to change how they play it (and that this can be done without changing the game for everyone else).

...and that's really all there was behind what I wrote... I'm not trying to assign any "right" or "wrong" to it. 

There is a remarkable amount of flexibility already built into this game because of the power it gives the player to choose how they would like to play, in addition to all the other options they can personally tune using custom settings.

Edited December 18, 2020 by ManicManiac

[dbmurph22]

Alright, all good @ManicManiac.  Thankful for your opinion.  I gave my counterpoint, but I overread your tone and POV a little bit, in regards to the emphasized you vs everyone else bit. 

[ManicManiac]

3 minutes ago, dbmurph22 said:

I overread your tone and POV a little bit, in regards to the emphasized you vs everyone else bit.

Fair enough... I suppose I didn't really need to emphasize those specific words.  Your observation is well taken. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Gun Tech.]

This is originally posted in the wish list forum, so it should be crystal clear (if a comment doesn't say otherwise) that it's my wish for something that would make the game even grander.

1. Currently, an experienced player can choose routes to avoid wolves and that makes gameplay predictable.
2. Currently, an experienced player or one that looks up loot tables can pick an optimum route from two high grade loot items, and that makes gameplay predictable.

My wish is to make it more survival decision based like calorie consumption, weather anticipation, affliction knowledge, etc.

The only way in which my wish is related to the hardest Survival difficulty really is that lower difficulties are more forgiving and has more freedom and loot, and because of this that a recent change makes Interloper more RNG-based, rather than Survival decision based - for all difficulties, Story modes, and Challenges.

From having mastered Interloper, this is a better change. You may add "in your opinion" in your mind, but I think objectively so - and even for those who haven't. A richer world and a new adventure each start.  And for players who don't care and for game devs who care a lot alike - higher replayability value is a good thing. 👍

Edited December 18, 2020 by Gun Tech.

[UpUpAway95]

This is already adjustable in the Custom Mode settings just by fiddling with the wolf spawns, detection distances, and fear/aggression settings separately.  Just take a little peak at what settings change between the Stalker Template and the Interloper one and tweak it to your liking.

[dbmurph22]

8 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

This is already adjustable in the Custom Mode settings just by fiddling with the wolf spawns, detection distances, and fear/aggression settings separately.  Just take a little peak at what settings change between the Stalker Template and the Interloper one and tweak it to your liking.

I mean....a little.  This is modifying things around the edges, but you're not creating managed unpredictability.  You know what you're expecting after the setting.  And it's usually increasing or decreasing volume more than adding variability.  I nearly always play custom.  Even then the baseline patrol routes and loot tables are pretty entrenched.  I mean it's not like it's the worst thing in the world, but it could be even more awesome!  This is after all, a wishlist.

[UpUpAway95]

5 hours ago, dbmurph22 said:

I mean....a little.  This is modifying things around the edges, but you're not creating managed unpredictability.  You know what you're expecting after the setting.  And it's usually increasing or decreasing volume more than adding variability.  I nearly always play custom.  Even then the baseline patrol routes and loot tables are pretty entrenched.  I mean it's not like it's the worst thing in the world, but it could be even more awesome!  This is after all, a wishlist.

I'd be more in favor of adding more fine tuning into the custom options rather than asking Hinterlands to effectively "customize" their standard difficulty modes  By definition, the standard difficulty modes are just Hinterland's selections from the custom menus that they feel work well for a broader range of players.  As another in the thread stated, what works best for you is not going to work best for everyone. 

For example, if they changed the Wolf Spawn Chance from the current 5 choices (None, Low, Medium,. High, & Very High) to a numerical choice from 1 to 10, players would have very fine control over how many wolves spawn in their games).  If they also increased the Wolf Spawn Distance choices from current 3 (Close, Medium, Far) to a numerical 1 to 5, this would give players very fine control over that aspect.  Then do the same for the Wildlife Smell Range, Scent Increases, Wolf Fear and Wildlife Detection range... and you'd have a tremendous range of ability to customize their attack behaviors to your liking.

Personally, I find it more than good enough as it is... and I can really change the "character" and "feel" of my playthroughs by manipulating these toggles... but I wouldn't object to more settings with finer increments of adjustment.

[Gun Tech.]

16 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

This is already adjustable in the Custom Mode settings just by fiddling with the wolf spawns, detection distances, and fear/aggression settings separately.  Just take a little peak at what settings change between the Stalker Template and the Interloper one and tweak it to your liking.

Not really. Fiddling with settings will not give more possible spots where they can be. Both this and increased Hammer/Hacksaw/Bedroll spawn spots will not increase wolf numbers or loot, because the seed is set by the same settings that have already been in the game.

It's mostly a correction of too few slots. A refinement within the difficulties; makes them richer. ❤️ It will affect other difficulties very little. Interloper forces you to interlope only from the loot setting for it (try Pilgrim with first setting set to Interloper level!)

This is why the loot table was made for Interloper in the first place. I don't mind that it's been sussed out and is used, but it might also be the sign of too few slots.

A loot table with 16 or 32 pages instead of 4 is perfectly possible for players to suss out and use; it would still be helpful but less so; one would no longer be able to pinpoint the page that seals the fate of one's character from finding just 1-2 items; more than 1 page might match.

The improvement would be coveted by Interloper veterans (because even playing without loot tables - with enough time you know all the spots where you once found a major loot item). But I'm sure it will beneficial for absolutely everyone, and greatly appreciated. ❤️ 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Gun Tech.

[UpUpAway95]

1 hour ago, Gun Tech. said:

Not really. Fiddling with settings will not give more possible spots where they can be. Both this and increased Hammer/Hacksaw/Bedroll spawn spots will not increase wolf numbers or loot, because the seed is set by the same settings that have already been in the game.

It's mostly a correction of too few slots. A refinement within the difficulties; makes them richer. ❤️ It will affect other difficulties very little. Interloper forces you to interlope only from the loot setting for it (try Pilgrim with first setting set to Interloper level!)

This is why the loot table was made for Interloper in the first place. I don't mind that it's been sussed out and is used, but it might also be the sign of too few slots.

A loot table with 16 or 32 pages instead of 4 is perfectly possible for players to suss out and use; it would still be helpful but less so; one would no longer be able to pinpoint the page that seals the fate of one's character from finding just 1-2 items; more than 1 page might match.

The improvement would be coveted by Interloper veterans (because even playing without loot tables - with enough time you know all the spots where you once found a major loot item). But I'm sure it will beneficial for absolutely everyone, and greatly appreciated. ❤️ 

I have fiddled with the custom settings.  How they work is the formula coded into the game is the same for all difficulties.  The custom settings insert the variable into the formula.  The custom settings shown in the Interloper template represent the variables Hinterlands has put into the formulas for which they have settings.  If you provide more "decimal places" in the variables, you will change things "a little bit" - which was stated as the desire.  If you change the formulas, you will change the rates in all difficulties, not just Interloper.

Sure, they can add new areas of control to the custom settings... representing any of the formulas in the game that are not yet represented in the menus.  I'd be all for it.  I'd be in favor of totally turning the balancing of the game into the player's hands... ie. eliminating completely the standard settings.  More room to "fiddle" for me.  Standard settings are merely a starting point for those still unfamiliar with the game and those too lazy to customize the game for themselves.

Also, I have no idea why you're suddenly talking about loot tables, since the topic  is about animal behavior, which is unaffected by the formulae regarding baseline resources, container item density, etc.

E.G. Current settings for Wolf Spawn Chance on Stalker and on Interloper are the same at High.  Changing this setting to Very High will increase the chances (i.e. spots) where wolves spawn.  That is, for each spawn location that now has a, say, 75% chance of spawning wolves and, therefore, a 25% chance of not spawning a wolf, it would increase the chance to say 85% and lower the chance of not to 15%.

Current setting for Wolf Spawn Distance in both Stalker and Interloper is Close.  There is no higher setting.  However, Wolf Detection Range is current set to Medium for both difficulties.  This can be increased to Far, which will cause them to detect you more easily and draw more in towards you.  Conversely, it can also be lowered to Close, which means they won't detect you until you are closer to them.  Wolf Fear is also set to Medium for both difficulties and can also, therefore, be increased or decreased as desired.  The big difference between Stalker and Interloper regarding wolves is that they do more damage in Stalker... and there is probably a wolf spawn number formula that doesn't have a custom setting that controls how many wolves spawn in each location.  It may also be affected by the settings for other wildlife spawns to prevent too many animals on the map overall.

The situation with the Loot Tables is much the same.  On Stalker, I can still use the Loot Tables set up for Interloper and I'll usually find the specialized items  they list them.  However, since there is no reduction to the container item density and a high chance of finding loose items and a lower chance of finding empty containers, I'll find a few more items overall in Stalker than on Interloper even if I change the Stalker Baseline Resource setting from medium to low.  So, you can instead decrease the amount of overall items you find in Stalker mode by increasing the Loose Item Availability from Medium to Low, the Emty Container Chance Modifier from Medium to High and the Reduce Container Itme Density from Low to High (meaning you'll find less gear in any container that is not empty) to get something in the middle with the high end gear being still available or you can approach it from the Interloper Baseline Resource setting and change the other three to increase the amount of stuff found slightly but still restricting the high-end gear and having no knives or guns spawn.

Edited December 19, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[dbmurph22]

Variance with the Loot Tables was part of the OP - the second point in the bullet list.

Yeah I fiddle with the custom settings a lot and I'm thankful for the tool.  They could always be more detailed, but they are pretty good. I can see someone not wanting the standard list, but personally I like having them.  I would actually be in favor of adding to the standard list with a 5th difficulty.  Make Interloper the hardest but have it with low condition recovery and aggressive predators settings (far detection ranges, etc).  Add the new setting between Stalker and Interloper ("Wayfarer" or some such) and make it similar to current Interloper, but maybe a few settings easier (less container density reduction maybe, one of the weather settings down a tick).

And of course Wayfarer and Interloper both have the new settings Wolf and Loot Variance, that this thread is about, turned on.   Eight random locations in a region each have a 20% to spawn a wolf.  Five new random loot locations have a 50% chance of spawning loot and five existing ones have a 50% of having that loot removed.  My wishlist...come to pass!

So yeah, you can go with adding more wolf spawn locations and loot tables.  Or you can say it's fine, we don't need that, just more customization in the custom menu (though I persist you can't get the same effect from either).  My dream world would be to have this extra overlay.  "Oh my, I'm glad I had my flare gun out...I had no idea there would be a wolf on Marsh Ridge!" and "Well...now what do I do?  The guaranteed match spawn at Spence's is gone and got hit with the variance removal. Now I have to think of something."

Anyway, any changes to the current situation of wolf patrol settings is yeah making aggressive changes to the current player base.  But I sort of like when Hinterland is aggressive in that way.  The decoy correction was a big move.

[UpUpAway95]

32 minutes ago, dbmurph22 said:

Variance with the Loot Tables was part of the OP - the second point in the bullet list.

Yeah I fiddle with the custom settings a lot and I'm thankful for the tool.  They could always be more detailed, but they are pretty good. I can see someone not wanting the standard list, but personally I like having them.  I would actually be in favor of adding to the standard list with a 5th difficulty.  Make Interloper the hardest but have it with low condition recovery and aggressive predators settings (far detection ranges, etc).  Add the new setting between Stalker and Interloper ("Wayfarer" or some such) and make it similar to current Interloper, but maybe a few settings easier (less container density reduction maybe, one of the weather settings down a tick).

And of course Wayfarer and Interloper both have the new settings Wolf and Loot Variance, that this thread is about, turned on.   Eight random locations in a region each have a 20% to spawn a wolf.  Five new random loot locations have a 50% chance of spawning loot and five existing ones have a 50% of having that loot removed.  My wishlist...come to pass!

So yeah, you can go with adding more wolf spawn locations and loot tables.  Or you can say it's fine, we don't need that, just more customization in the custom menu (though I persist you can't get the same effect from either).  My dream world would be to have this extra overlay.  "Oh my, I'm glad I had my flare gun out...I had no idea there would be a wolf on Marsh Ridge!" and "Well...now what do I do?  The guaranteed match spawn at Spence's is gone and got hit with the variance removal. Now I have to think of something."

Anyway, any changes to the current situation of wolf patrol settings is yeah making aggressive changes to the current player base.  But I sort of like when Hinterland is aggressive in that way.  The decoy correction was a big move.

There are already innumerable locations where loot can spawn.  Not being on the loot table does not prevent any of those locations from spawning a desirable item... even on Interloper.  There is merely a much higher chance of that location spawning an empty container or a container with fewer items in it when not empty.  Expanding the loot tables only adds more places where if something specific spawns at X then something else is guaranteed to spawn at Y.  The reason people fall into following those paths is because they want to play it safe and actively seek out Y when they find X.  Adding more loot tables isn't going to change the way they play.  The loot tables exist to ensure that no save goes completely without an essential item.  My solution to the "I'm following the same paths" complaint would be not to add more loot tables, but instead to eliminate all of them and if the player rolls snake eyes and there isn't a single bedroll on his map, that's the luck of the draw.  If one finds a lantern at X, great; but then there is absolutely no guarantee that a bedroll will be found at Y.

There are already innumerable possible wolf spawn points in the game.  Many of them are, no doubt, just not along the "routes" that the loot table followers habitually follow.  Leading them to think there aren't enough wolf spawn points in the entire game overall.  Adding more spawn points would just mean that, sometimes, a player might face 20 wolves altogether because each spot rolled the chance to spawn one and none of the spots rolled the chance to not spawn one.

Edited December 19, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[Dan_]

I agree with the idea but I don't think this is technically feasible without a lot of work, specifically the random wolf spawning spots everywere, if that's what the OP means.

Remember in older updates when new zones or objects and props within a "scene" were introduced and caused lots of issues with wolves attacking through fences, ectoplasming their way through walls and sometimes not being able to find a path to the player and engaging in all sorts of weird behaviours? I'm pretty sure they changed and improved the pathing algorithm a lot of that effort went into scene design to simplify pathfinding, rather than make an even more complex algorithm I'd assume, given the game expanded to consoles ( even the switch now ) and these are not the most powerful machines on earth so the pathing must be simple for the game to run well ( CPU wise ).

That was an issue before, though HL have been improving the game substantially and good and fast animal AI was something the game lacked before, they might have improved that a lot and my concerns might be irrelevant. I'm just throwing this out there as a consideration. I love the idea, but as a programmer I'd wager the amount of work involved would immediately put HL devs off the idea.

As a player, I'd love to have random wolf spawns, hell yeah. 

In regards to the loot tables, they were introduced to guarantee tool spawns given loper random spawns are few and far between for high value items. I recall a playthrough before HRV was introduced were I looted the entire map and only found two wool toques through bad RNG. Imagine having only one hammer through the dozen or so regions we have now? To me it would be awesome, to a Loper newcomer it would elicit complaints, I'm sure.

Having more loot tables would be a good addition IMO, and it shouldn't be way too difficult to adjust. ( I assume they're simple scene configs, I might be wrong ). To me they do not spoil the experience because through looting the maps and hitting all major buildings and looting spots you'll eventually have more tools and good-level items than you realistically need in a game. Plus the only essential is a hammer, you can find enough scrap laying around everywere and the other tools and clothing you'll have to craft anyway. The loot tables also enable the Loper newbies to get a footing into forging and using the bow, so they serve a purpose. 

To end this huge and juicy steak of text, remember than last than 2% ( I think ) of the player base plays Interloper on a regular basis. The fact that this difficulty even exists with all of it's unique quirks is more than I could ever ask from HL, honestly. 

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text. TLDR: Agree with the ideas, don't think both of them will come to fruition, for reasons outlined. 

Stay safe and warm out there ( Inside IRL, please ). 

[dbmurph22]

4 hours ago, Dan_ said:

I agree with the idea but I don't think this is technically feasible without a lot of work, specifically the random wolf spawning spots everywere, if that's what the OP means.

Remember in older updates when new zones or objects and props within a "scene" were introduced and caused lots of issues with wolves attacking through fences, ectoplasming their way through walls and sometimes not being able to find a path to the player and engaging in all sorts of weird behaviours? I'm pretty sure they changed and improved the pathing algorithm a lot of that effort went into scene design to simplify pathfinding, rather than make an even more complex algorithm I'd assume, given the game expanded to consoles ( even the switch now ) and these are not the most powerful machines on earth so the pathing must be simple for the game to run well ( CPU wise ).

That was an issue before, though HL have been improving the game substantially and good and fast animal AI was something the game lacked before, they might have improved that a lot and my concerns might be irrelevant. I'm just throwing this out there as a consideration. I love the idea, but as a programmer I'd wager the amount of work involved would immediately put HL devs off the idea.

As a player, I'd love to have random wolf spawns, hell yeah. 

In regards to the loot tables, they were introduced to guarantee tool spawns given loper random spawns are few and far between for high value items. I recall a playthrough before HRV was introduced were I looted the entire map and only found two wool toques through bad RNG. Imagine having only one hammer through the dozen or so regions we have now? To me it would be awesome, to a Loper newcomer it would elicit complaints, I'm sure.

Having more loot tables would be a good addition IMO, and it shouldn't be way too difficult to adjust. ( I assume they're simple scene configs, I might be wrong ). To me they do not spoil the experience because through looting the maps and hitting all major buildings and looting spots you'll eventually have more tools and good-level items than you realistically need in a game. Plus the only essential is a hammer, you can find enough scrap laying around everywere and the other tools and clothing you'll have to craft anyway. The loot tables also enable the Loper newbies to get a footing into forging and using the bow, so they serve a purpose. 

To end this huge and juicy steak of text, remember than last than 2% ( I think ) of the player base plays Interloper on a regular basis. The fact that this difficulty even exists with all of it's unique quirks is more than I could ever ask from HL, honestly. 

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text. TLDR: Agree with the ideas, don't think both of them will come to fruition, for reasons outlined. 

Stay safe and warm out there ( Inside IRL, please ). 

Really good thoughts and agreed.  I feel like the wolf wish on this one is particularly closer to one of those "ultimate" wishlist type of deals than normal  - one that's more forged in hope and desire vs realistic expectation given the difficulty of implementation as you said on a technical level.  In my meat thread I sort of give my wishlist criteria thoughts and this sort of defies that.  Thanks again.

[UpUpAway95]

4 hours ago, Dan_ said:

I agree with the idea but I don't think this is technically feasible without a lot of work, specifically the random wolf spawning spots everywere, if that's what the OP means.

Remember in older updates when new zones or objects and props within a "scene" were introduced and caused lots of issues with wolves attacking through fences, ectoplasming their way through walls and sometimes not being able to find a path to the player and engaging in all sorts of weird behaviours? I'm pretty sure they changed and improved the pathing algorithm a lot of that effort went into scene design to simplify pathfinding, rather than make an even more complex algorithm I'd assume, given the game expanded to consoles ( even the switch now ) and these are not the most powerful machines on earth so the pathing must be simple for the game to run well ( CPU wise ).

That was an issue before, though HL have been improving the game substantially and good and fast animal AI was something the game lacked before, they might have improved that a lot and my concerns might be irrelevant. I'm just throwing this out there as a consideration. I love the idea, but as a programmer I'd wager the amount of work involved would immediately put HL devs off the idea.

As a player, I'd love to have random wolf spawns, hell yeah. 

In regards to the loot tables, they were introduced to guarantee tool spawns given loper random spawns are few and far between for high value items. I recall a playthrough before HRV was introduced were I looted the entire map and only found two wool toques through bad RNG. Imagine having only one hammer through the dozen or so regions we have now? To me it would be awesome, to a Loper newcomer it would elicit complaints, I'm sure.

Having more loot tables would be a good addition IMO, and it shouldn't be way too difficult to adjust. ( I assume they're simple scene configs, I might be wrong ). To me they do not spoil the experience because through looting the maps and hitting all major buildings and looting spots you'll eventually have more tools and good-level items than you realistically need in a game. Plus the only essential is a hammer, you can find enough scrap laying around everywere and the other tools and clothing you'll have to craft anyway. The loot tables also enable the Loper newbies to get a footing into forging and using the bow, so they serve a purpose. 

To end this huge and juicy steak of text, remember than last than 2% ( I think ) of the player base plays Interloper on a regular basis. The fact that this difficulty even exists with all of it's unique quirks is more than I could ever ask from HL, honestly. 

Anyway, sorry for the wall of text. TLDR: Agree with the ideas, don't think both of them will come to fruition, for reasons outlined. 

Stay safe and warm out there ( Inside IRL, please ). 

Before we say there should be more spawn points for wolves on the map... How many places are there where wolves can possibly spawn and what is the actual chance on each level of the "Wolf Spawn Chance" setting where any given site might spawn a wolf?  Does anyone even really know this ainxw even stalker doesn't use the highest setting and each individual spawn point does have a percentage chance of not spawning a wolf at any particular time.  If we increase the number of locations where wolves might possibly spawn on each map, we effectively increase the "density" of those locations... meaning we increase the possibility of more adjacent spawn points spawning wolves at the same time should the player hit an unlucky RNG.

Presumably, there is also a cap of the total number of animals of each type that can be active at any one point in time, particularly on lower-end systems where having too many active at once would crash the game.

Edited December 20, 2020 by UpUpAway95

[odizzido]

I feel there are already way too many wolves, even on the lowest possible setting in custom. But I think that about all animals so that's not surprising.

 

Anyways my point is that I would like it if the challenge came from other places such as colder temps being available, harder to find food, allow indoor temps to drop based off of outdoor temps, home heating, etc.

[dbmurph22]

Yeah, odizzido, the indoor temps being affected by outdoor temps (at least as an option) would be huge.  And a bit of heat retention. 

I feel similarly about animal population in general - I went from Voyager to Interloper since the Stalker run n gun didn't really appeal to me as much as the harsh general environment.

That said, when you make really low animal settings it's almost too much of an empty downer to play through.

[odizzido]

I find with the lowest possible animal amount it's still way too high.

[Gun Tech.]

I thank you all for thoughts and feedback and wish you a Merry Xmas.

This is mostly directed towards the devs, who will know how easy it is to implement, as opposed to introducing new mechanics and their effects. You could say this post is a game designer speaking to a game designer and pointing out a way towards improvement - a different adventure each run, making the game experience richer.

I will not oppose anyone who finds the game quite enough to deal with as it is - this is a way to make Interloper harder, different on each run, and more survival decision-based rather than learning the loot spots and the wolf spots and ace it every time.

[stirfoo]

So, introduce more entropy into the system by increasing the number of scenarios to randomly select from. That would be ok as long as each set is deterministic. In other words, in a given set, will a hammer ever spawn... anywhere?  More scenarios = much more complexity. You end up with a combinatorial explosion.

[UpUpAway95]

A) Allow timberwolves to spawn randomly instead of regular wolves wherever regular wolves can currently spawn on any map.

B) Eliminate all "guaranteed" spawns and associated loot tables and replace with a minimum spawn amount as follows:

1) Each zone for some items - e.g. At least one pack of matches would spawn in each zone, but can spawn in any location in that zone and

2) For groups of 4 zones; e.g. a minimum of 1 bedroll would spawn in the zone group consisting of Hushed River Valley, Mountain Town, Mystery Lake, and Winding River, but its specific location would be completely random.  A minimum of 1 bedroll would spawn in one of the 4 zones of Broken Railroad, Forlorn Muskeg, Bleak Inlet and Crumbling Highway, but again, its exact location within those zones would be totally randomeany single zone.

3) Slightly more common items like, say, hacksaws - A minimum of 1 would spawn in 3-zone groups.

4) For the special but non-essential items like the Crampons, Moosehide Satchel, etc. - 1 only would spawn anywhere within the game world.

5) For common items, the minimum number of them would be higher, but they could spawn anywhere within the game world and might, as a result, be unevenly distributed within the game world by random chance.

No character should logically have an sixth sense about where to find their matches or bedroll or heavy hammer regardless of how well they know the maps.

Edited December 31, 2020 by UpUpAway95