Interloper fuel balance: carriable tree limbs

[sonics01]

Right now, in interloper, the efficiency of coal as a fuel is too good. On the other hand, harvesting cedar/fir firewood can be dangerous, they are less efficient than coals, and they are heavy when you wear two bear coats. In addition, the improvised hatchet is not that light. It weighs 1.75kg, not that much different from 2kg hammer. The only 'safe' time window for the harvesting cedar/fir woods in interloper using the improvised hatchet is 1~2 hr around the late afternoon, a little wider if you harvest these in CH or ML or other 'warmer' regions. 

As a result, almost all interloper and loper-grade custom players only prefer the combination of coal + branch. They are just too good. Better temperature, safer, and lighter. No motivation to rely on firewoods, except regions like BI where there is no coal supply in the vicinity. 

Honestly, I think carrying a cedar/fir limb would be OK. Of course, with a reasonable penalty in movement speed and faster fatigue/hunger rate. Plus, introduce an additional penalty modifier to the weight of cedar and fir limb of they are carried in a backpack, assuming their size (2~3m length) prohibits the better movement and behavior of characters, which results in further speed declination and faster fatigue/hunger speed. Plus, of course, normal respawning tree limbs (which provides 3 firewoods) should be allowed to carry. Bigger trees (4+ firewoods) shouldn't be allowed to carry.  

In another way, we could introduce carrying rope. This game already assumes that the character can make rope from guts. In addition to guts, in real wilderness, it is possible to make rope from nature like: 

Introduce a crafted lighter rope, which can be crafted from guts and branches/bushes/dried grass with long crafting time. Then, using crafted rope, let players drag deer/wolf carcass and tree limbs with fatigue and speed penalty. Carrying carcass should bring stacking up of the smell as well.

It would be good to introduce this option only in the interloper and include them as a custom option as well. That would be better for the balance.  

This way, harvesting tree limbs would be safer than before. This will lessen the burden for the harvesting of tree limbs in loper, and people will carry improved hatchet more.

Right now, people hardly use the improvised hatchet and hardly carry them. For me, I made 5 improvised hatchets, distributed among different maps, repair them all at once in BI. A similar concept with people only uses hammers for the furnace and ice breaking. I only use hatchets when I desperately need to harvest firewood, which hardly occurs without BI. Even in BI, it would be safer to use hammer to harvest reclaimed woods.  

These suggestions would help to lead people to harvest and use firewoods more in interloper, and to carry improvised hatchet more in interloper. 

I also thought about increasing the temperature of firewoods, just a little bit than current, like 12°C for cedar, and 15°C for fir, only in interloper. Right now, coal is just too good in terms of efficiency. But I'm also careful about this idea. Maybe, it would be better to nerf coal than buff firewoods, but devs should have their own design principle regarding fuel balance, so they may able to decide better if they really want to adjust the balance between coal and firewoods.  

[ajb1978]

I'm no developer here but I think the "carry the survivor" system in Episode 3 could probably be tapped for a variety of things.  Such as dragging those tree limbs, a wolf or deer carcass to a more manageable location.  Just like with the survivor, your movement is penalized and you can't draw a weapon or light source until you put the object down.

So in a perfect world where all wish list items are granted, I'm envisioning a system where...say I shoot 3 wolves out on the ice, and want to cut 'em up for spare parts.  Two dropped on the spot, a third ran off and died farther away. I start one campfire, drag all 3 wolves near it, then run off and find a limb for more fuel while the carcasses thaw.  I drag a nice big fir limb, warm up by the fire while cutting off a couple steaks.  Toss those on the fire to cook, then get to work chopping up that fir limb.  Put two fresh steaks on the fire, toss the fir in to feed the flames, then head out to go find another limb to drag.

[odizzido]

Considering I never bother with the axe and fur/cedar any change would be good. It's just part of the game that might as well not exist for me.

[Dr. S.]

For people who don’t carry the improvised hatchet on interloper, what do you carry for use in a wolf struggle?

[sonics01]

12 hours ago, Dr. S. said:

For people who don’t carry the improvised hatchet on interloper, what do you carry for use in a wolf struggle?

Don't make a situation of wolf struggle. From the moment you have arrow and bow, wolf is not a threat. 

The only threat is the very-close-range encounter by ambushing wolves, which makes 5m encounter or something like that. Behind the hill/ridge line, alley of Milton town and around the CH Quonset...  But there is a way to prevent this. Near the danger zone, I concentrate to the footstep. Usually, I get the clue from the sound, and escape from being ambushed. Plus, in suspicious area, I throw rocks to lure them out to the open. Sometimes, depending on situation, I increase my smell by killing a rabbit and let wolves lured by my smell, and drag them out to the open. Also, take the high ground and observe first, or circumventing the ambush zone can be a way too. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by sonics01

[odizzido]

17 hours ago, Dr. S. said:

For people who don’t carry the improvised hatchet on interloper, what do you carry for use in a wolf struggle?

I use the knife. But as sonics says the bow is extremely effective. Just shoot them in the face, every time. Get to a good spot, aim for 0.1 seconds so the wolf goes berserk at the right distance, then shoot it in the face as it charges in. Wolf behaviour is extremely predictable so you can line up your shot before even aiming and get the wolf to charge exactly when you want.

[Dr. S.]

Yeah, wolves aren't a problem once you have a bow, unless you get ambushed, which was the situation I was thinking of. Even with good avoidance skills, I still get ambushed occasionally, if I make a mistake, so I carry the hatchet for that reason.

But back to the original point of this thread, I agree that sticks + coal >>> timber, especially since you can now throw a piece of coal on a fire as soon as it's lit. I do occasionally chop logs, but mostly only for fuel for long fishing sessions. Not sure what the solution is, though.

[DPHG]

19 hours ago, Dr. S. said:

For people who don’t carry the improvised hatchet on interloper, what do you carry for use in a wolf struggle?

I avoid wolf struggles with general success. In rare cases I get jumped and use the knife. It's very easy to recover condition on Interloper, so I'm usually more bummed at the ruined clothing than the condition loss.

[ManicManiac]

I think the balance between the availability of the various fuels and their respective burn times is good as is.

Sticks/branches are the most numerous and very low effort/risk to acquire.
Limbs (both cedar and fir) and reclaimed wood are still reasonably abundant and reasonably take a little more time and effort to harvest, which I think is appropriate considering their "mid-tier" efficiency.
Coal can only be found in certain caves (that is to say explorable "interior" caves) and in a hand full of scattered "one time" locations.  The coal takes more time to gather up (but only the sense that you have to go to specific locations, and the respawn rate is slow compared to Limbs/branches/sticks).

(outliers like Fire-logs and books - are not very efficient at all but also have their value for as conveniences)
(books' main value, of course, being that they are easier to catch fire)

About wolves:
I find that as long as I travel cautiously and pay attention, wolves are easy to spot and easy to avoid.
I agree with folks about the axe... I don't ever carry one either.  I tend to just keep them stashed and only go get one when when I feel like chopping limbs.

As for wolf struggles... I find that blunt weapons (like prybar or hammer) will get a wolf off of you more quickly [*seemingly].  True it won't cause the wolf to bleed out, but it will at least get the struggle over with relatively quickly (giving me less risk of damage to my survivor or clothing).  I tend to favor the prybar in this one aspect simply because it's lighter and more versatile (also good for opening locked containers, clearing fishing holes, and fending off wolves).  True, the hammer's big advantage is that gets the wolf out of your face quicker and is reparable (it just so blasted heavy ) .

However, my usual defensive weapon is a knife (or stones to run them off before they can jump me).  I very rarely get into struggles with wolves these days.   In this run so far I'm 255 days in, and have only had one wolf struggle (because I let myself get cornered by not paying enough attention to where I was going).

I don't think we need a "re-balance."  I appreciate the balance we have, and I think Hinterland did a great job when they worked it out.

Edited September 4, 2020 by ManicManiac

[ajb1978]

33 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

As for wolf struggles... I find that blunt weapons (like prybar or hammer) will get a wolf off of you more quickly. 

I've tried them all, even deliberately running into a wolf just to test something. This is my analysis

Hammer: Fastest end to the struggle, but no bleedout
Hatchet: Fast end to the struggle, does moderate damage, bleeds out in time.
Knife: Moderate end to the struggle, with the potential to do extreme damage and instantly kill.  If not, bleeds out over time.
Prybar: Moderate end to the struggle, but no bleedout.
Fists: Good friggen luck.

Revolver: The wildcard, as it depends on your skill.  This can be anywhere from marginally more useful than fists at level 1, to a faster end than even the hammer at level 5 (edit: Assuming you button mash until the "take shot" pops up, and then take the shot).

Edited September 4, 2020 by ajb1978

[ManicManiac]

@ajb1978

Thank you, I appreciate the follow up... I hadn't done any dedicated testing.
Mine was admittedly just anecdotal, so I really appreciate the results of your more in depth testing.

Edited September 4, 2020 by ManicManiac

[odizzido]

I just think it's a shame whenever there is part of the game I don't interact with because it's not beneficial for me to do so. The time and effort required to map isn't worth it for me, chopping tree limbs isn't of any benefit to me either.

The problem with tree limbs, I feel, is that since they don't respawn they cannot be required. If they're not required then you never have to use them at all. Which I don't and likely never will. If we could drag them inside buildings I MIGHT chop them up sometimes.....maybe. I would have to see.

[sonics01]

17 hours ago, ajb1978 said:

I've tried them all, even deliberately running into a wolf just to test something. This is my analysis

Hammer: Fastest end to the struggle, but no bleedout
Hatchet: Fast end to the struggle, does moderate damage, bleeds out in time.
Knife: Moderate end to the struggle, with the potential to do extreme damage and instantly kill.  If not, bleeds out over time.
Prybar: Moderate end to the struggle, but no bleedout.
Fists: Good friggen luck.

Revolver: The wildcard, as it depends on your skill.  This can be anywhere from marginally more useful than fists at level 1, to a faster end than even the hammer at level 5 (edit: Assuming you button mash until the "take shot" pops up, and then take the shot).

https://hinterlandforums.com/forums/topic/15701-426-wolf-struggle-tests

Isn't the data from that post still valid? As far as I can tell, this test still works from my interloper short tests and experiences. I guess your tests should be the similar with those results. In terms of saving the player's health bar, Hatchet -> Hammer -> Knife -> Improvised Hatchet -> Prybar -> Improvised Knife. In loper, the hammer brings the best outcome from the wolf struggle. But both hammer and an improvised hatchet are too heavy, and their uses are so local and limited so I don't bring them... 

Edited September 4, 2020 by sonics01

[sonics01]

2 hours ago, odizzido said:

I just think it's a shame whenever there is part of the game I don't interact with because it's not beneficial for me to do so. The time and effort required to map isn't worth it for me, chopping tree limbs isn't of any benefit to me either.

The problem with tree limbs, I feel, is that since they don't respawn they cannot be required. If they're not required then you never have to use them at all. Which I don't and likely never will. If we could drag them inside buildings I MIGHT chop them up sometimes.....maybe. I would have to see.

Indeed, from my 3 interloper characters, I hardly harvested firewoods from any place except BI.  Even in BI I preferred reclaimed woods via hammer over firewoods because reclaimed woods can be harvested from the inside.

1hr to chop a tree using hatchet from outside, after 50th day of interloper, is enough long time to drain warmth meter and takes out some portion of health. Only safe time frame is 1~2 hr before sunset, late afternoon, with 2 bear coats and full interloper 1 tier cloths. Drinking a hot tea requires a fire and consumption of the resources. Birch bark is infinite but I don't use birch bark just to get warmth bonus to chop a tree, because birch bark respawn is not fast, and I need to save them for the moment when I need to heal. Making a 1hr duration fire to chop a tree for 1hr is also not efficient. 

So naturally, firewood is bye bye from me, as well as improvised hatchet... On the other hand, coal is really easy to achieve. I mostly live in Ravine cave, and it takes one day to hoard coals from Cinder Mine. You can get some coals from cave from Winding river to PV as well, which is also close from Carter Dam and Ravine. And you don't need to consume coals that much in interloper. 1~2 Coal + a lot of branches (and reclaimed woods) will work.     

The idea of carrying a tree limb is a buff to the firewoods. I was thinking that this idea would lessen the burden of chopping tree outside and let people increase the consumption of firewoods over coal. At least comparable level. But there can be different ways to buff. Like increase temperature or duration of firewoods. However, carrying idea would be better because this will eliminate the one important burden of chopping tree outside: coldness damage. 

Another way is nerfing the coals. Personally I like the idea of nerfing coal because it is too good now, for both fire time per weight and temperature per weight. But this will make the early phase of interloper (or loper-custom) too challenging before people craft hatchet to harvest firewoods, or before acquire the hammer to harvest reclaimed woods. So I'm not sure if devs will decide to nerf the coal. But at least I will like that. 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by sonics01

[ajb1978]

32 minutes ago, sonics01 said:

Isn't the data from that post still valid?

Seems like it.  They judged weapon effectiveness by how much condition you lost during the struggle, which seems pretty close to what I've observed.   Although they went into a LOT more detail.  I only did a few tests per weapon, and I went with struggle duration instead of condition loss.  So their results are likely more accurate.  But still it seems to corroborate that hatchet and hammer are both solid choices with the hatchet being slightly better, knife is okay, and the prybar sucks.

The revolver is still the wild card though, and depends both on your level, and on whether you elect to fire a shot to end the struggle early.

[gotmilkanot]

Ability to carry/drag tree limbs is a cool idea, they could just reuse the same mechanics from carrying survivors in Ep 3. Huge penalty on mobility and not being able to equip weapons while carrying would still make it balanced.

IIRC, you couldn't add coal directly into a fire in the past (like you have to wait till the fire has been burning for quite some time). I wish they'd bring that back though, coal is too OP in Interloper at the moment.

[Stone]

I'm with @odizzido. It's sad but it's an unnecessary element. That said I really want to chop limbs and do it when it's warm enough (rarely is on loper). But I thought limbs respawned. Now I feel foolish. Sigh.

I don't think coal is OP @sonics01. You could equally say sticks are OP. You've just learnt to exploit them.

 

 

[Dr. S.]

Limbs comb in two sizes. The smaller ones respawn; the larger ones do not. 

[sonics01]

20 hours ago, Stone said:

I don't think coal is OP @sonics01. You could equally say sticks are OP. You've just learnt to exploit them.

The fact is, the coal in this game has the highest temperature per weight and burn time per weight. It overwhelms other fuels. Plus, when I discuss about coal, I considered the situation of coal + stick or any other "easier" fuels around. Of course no one just use coal only, but mix with all others... This way, any players can min/max the ratio of coal and stick or other fuels based on the temperature and the purpose of fire. With some experiences, one can be extremely efficient about coal consumption, and does not need to rely on cedar/fir firewood at all, except some maps like BI. From that moment, the necessity of harvesting tree limbs are negligible, especially in the loper. Too cold and inefficient to harvest firewoods from the outside. 

So, my idea of carriable tree limbs would resolve this issue and fix some balance issue between the coal and firewoods. 

Edited September 10, 2020 by sonics01