A 2018 wish list for TLD2

[WildGPS]

Alright, so first off let me say that I know this post is premature.  Probably years too early. That being said, everyone that loves The Long Dark (whether they are players, creators or both) have thought at least once about what The Long Dark 2 might be like.

Here is my wish list for The Long Dark 2.  These items are things that I imagine are too intricate, impact balance too much, or are such big projects that they would need years to implement and would benefit from a relatively clean slate. I know there are already topics scattered around about TLD2, but all that I have seen are at least two years old and not very consolidated. Feel free to add, change, debate, react... whatever strikes your fancy!

1.       Seasons.  The holy grail of TLD.  This opens up so many possibilities, from more meaningful, dynamic wildlife behavior to twists in the mid to late game and more appeal for 300+ day runs.

2.       Ability to craft shelters, crafting tables, etc.  Hushed River Valley is beautiful, but if I have to leave the map to turn my cured deer hides into boots, then I’m probably not coming back.  Crafting adds so much to this game, but other than clothes and hunting equipment there aren’t many options.  Going with this is the ability to clean buildings.  Everything from that dead body in the corner to the ripped papers on the ground.  There are even brooms, but apparently I lack the knowledge or capability to sweep floors.

3.       Many, many more maps.  Perhaps even a procedurally generated map mode for improved replayability.  If I make the same lap around the Mystery Lake cabins one more time I’ll, oh wait, I just made another lap while writing this.  I believe there are a lot of players who play a lot for a couple weeks or even a couple months, and then set TLD aside for years because they feel they have “beaten” it.

4.       Advanced orienteering.  Specifically, the ability to mark your own landmarks on the map.  This is where I dropped a bunch of food to lighten my load.  This area is wolf country.  Things like that. Also, ability to mark blazes into trees with a knife or hatchet.  This could be crucial on procedurally generated maps.

5.       More interactive vegetation.  I love the cat tails and medicinal plants, and would love to see at least a half a dozen more.  Again, adding seasons also adds the dimension of having some berries available in summer (salmonberries, cranberries, maybe even a couple rare blackberry bushes or crabapple trees), roots in the fall (yellow glacier lily, camas root, rice lily) and seaweed available along coastlines during spring and summer.  Winter has limited options, maybe just cat tails…  You can also toss in things like edible mushrooms (with similar looking, but able to differentiate poison mushrooms), wild hazelnuts, elderberries, huckleberries, wild onions, clover, etc.  You can thin out amounts to keep balance relatively consistent, but adding some more variety would be much appreciated.

6.       Smarter wildlife.  If seasons exist, it’s possible for animal populations to truly be dynamic with repopulation happening in the Spring. Say there are 100 bunnies across all of the Mystery Lake map.  They may migrate to places that are more desirable throughout the year, both predators and prey, but if a player annihilates all the bunnies in an area, they won’t come back until Spring.  We assume that a certain percentage stay underground or well-hidden so the player doesn’t know they exist and can therefore bring populations back to full each Spring.

7.       More wildlife.  Ideally, if I can hear a bird chirping, then I should be able to see the bird if I look hard enough and know where to look. Cougars, beavers, geese, raccoons, ducks, and more!

8.       Meaningful NPCs.  Not just here’s Dave, sitting in his quiet clearing and I can go and say hi, but people doing people things.  Dave isn’t going to sit 24/7.  How does Dave eat?  Where does Dave sleep?  Can I kill Dave?  Why shouldn’t I?  and that last question wasn’t rhetorical, there really should be a reason why my world is better with Dave in it.

9.       But not too many NPCs.  It should be surprising to see another person.  These towns are ghost towns, and they should be.  The wilderness is wild, and it should be.  Hinterland has done an amazing job creating an atmosphere on Great Bear Island that sucks you in.  Adding people can bring the game up to another level, but if it’s not done right it could ruin one of the best parts of this game.

10.   Companion(s).  Whether these are animal companions or NPC companions, having someone to share the highs and lows with makes everything more meaningful.  And if (heaven forbid) something were to happen to your companion, imagine the emotional turmoil for the player.  Could make for some interesting moral choices (we have one more can of dog food and we’re both starving….).  Just make sure those moral choices aren’t forced upon the player.  If the game forces the player into a situation where they MUST decide who gets that last can and there is nothing the player could have done to avoid the situation, then instead of wrestling with “oh boy, what should I do?” the player will think “This game is unfair!” and rage-quit. 

11.   A hope or “state of mind” mechanic.  Something to add to the reality of the situation.  Cabin fever is step in that direction, but really what it’s getting at is the slow mental exhaustion of your choices.  It shouldn’t just be limited to staying indoors.  If I am caught out in a blizzard and think I’m going to die, then I’m going to lose some hope.  If I watch a beautiful sunrise while drinking hot coffee, I gain some hope.  If my hope gets too low, I can be restricted in what I can do (similar to not being able to sew or study when I’m exhausted) until I resolve the issue that is lowering my hope.  When I come home after a successful hunt, walking through the door gives me (the player) a sense of relief and hope so why wouldn’t it do the same for the toon?

12.   More skills.  Why isn’t crafting a skill?  At first I can barely put together a fishing hook and some line, but as I practice I get comfortable enough to build snares, then craft clothes, etc.  What about repairing hacksaws and lanterns?  Sharpening hatchets and knives?

13.   More minigames, less RNG.  Sewing, starting fires, maybe repairing equipment, etc. Minigames are fun, RNGesus is not. The downside to this is how to get the balance just right.  If I now feel like starting a fire is about me pushing the right buttons at the right times, then in my subconscious I am thinking that I should start fires 100% of the time if I don’t mess up.  Right now that is definitely not the case, and I think that changing that could upset the balance of the game substantially.  Maybe minigames that increase the percent chance of success….?

14.   Bartering system. I’m sure I’m super biased here as I’m currently getting my PhD in business, but what’s the point of harvesting 200 rabbit skins, if they just sit rotting in a filing cabinet.  What if I could trade 50 rabbit skins for Dave’s nice expedition parka (a high quality item that I can find elsewhere in game), or more cloth and whetstones (non-renewable, scarce resources), or even a compass (an item not possible to find anywhere else in game)!!

15.   ???

 

Please don’t take this as me not being satisfied with the game.  I write this because I love this game so much.  It is literally my favorite game of all time.  I know these suggestions are only one person’s opinion, but hopefully they rattle around in the back of Raph’s mind as he spins them into gold. 

[gnomegnine]

thank you for putting this in one post, but all these Ideas have been suggested before. except maybe the NPCs. I'm waiting for the rabbit cannon.

[deathbydanish]

As far as RNGesus, I feel like save scumming really cancels out any negative outcomes, like if I try to repair a parka and it doesn't work there is nothing to stop me from just loading my save game and getting the result I want.

[Tri13]

there is not going to be a sequel

 

[SneakySquid]

5 hours ago, Tri13 said:

there is not going to be a sequel

 

Same here

 

[Mroz4k]

Hello. You have a huge selection of some very good ideas in here. I will do my best to siphon through it all, add my opinions. I know others said that most of what you suggested have already been suggested before... well, I dont think that matters. Many suggestions that were applied to the game were discussed over and over again, it is probably why they eventually made it into the game. So dont feel discouraged by bringing up some older suggestions.

Let me start of with this: Why do you think there is going to be a sequel? Why do we need one? Why cant the TLD we all know and love just keep evolving further and further? I dont think Hinterland is going in a direction where their financial reserves are dwindling... in fact, I dont think there has to be a TLD. I would love to see a different project of Hinterland to emerge altogether, alongside of the continuous evolvement of TLD. At worst, I see no reason why some of the real major changes, like the seasons you mentioned, couldnt be done as an expansion of the original game. Many games go that way, and I think in the case of the future TLD, this would be an excellent direction. Datadisc with extra "major" content could satisfy everyone. So, I am not a fan of the TLD 2 idea, but I really enjoy your passion.

Ok, I will try to type less, and discuss more  time to take a look at your suggestions. But, knowing myself, be ready for a LOOOONG post.

That is why I will be putting my suggestions under a spoiler.

1. Seasons are a very popular topic. I share your enthusiasm. I would like to see them in this original game, rather then in a sequel, or a similar-type game developed by Hinterland. Which is why I like the idea of an optional datadisc that could introduce seasons into the game. I would love to see the seasons in process, I would not be sad even if there were only two seasons, the winter and summer, both still very cold, and the transitions between them would be quick. Something quite common behind the polar circle, as far as I know. Sadly, this seem like it would be a massive undertaking development-wise. So, I am not holding my breath for it.
Once upon a time, there were TLD road maps - things the Devs wanted to add to TLD. I doubt we will see everything from them implemented... but seasons were in there.

2. Absolute yes for ability to craft more shelters. Different shelters provide different pros, and cons. Certain places would only allow some kinds of shelters, and in some places, a certain kind of shelter would be much more effective... this in itself would be difficult to code in effectively, but with more variety, the emphasis would be on the player´s thinking, and that is the single most important tool in survival, altogether. Ability to think, adapt, chose the best option. Also, the "how" it was built would be a huge factor... one could build a very good shelter, but with its entrance pointed in the direction from where the wind is blowing, its effectivity would be lower, significantly.
I am hardly against workbenches and crafting benches. I dont want to see furniture crafting in TLD, maybe except for some "temporary" structures like meat smoking tripod, that sort of thing... the reason why I dont like it was hinted by you - different places in the game have different benefits. If, for example, we were able to "make" a workbench, certain places in the game would immidiatedly become "way too good to live in" as opposed to the current situation. 
Let me ask you - why would you not want to return to Hushed Valley? It is beautiful... and offers plethora of natural resources. I play TLD in a specific way... once I have nothing more to do, I just walk around the world, going on "trips" - and observe the nature. Live little adventures... that way, the game never ends up boring me. If you never saw the documentary of Dick Proenneke, and his life dream of building a cabin in the woods and living as one with the nature, you should. Taking an example of him, you can make sure that you will never find a life in TLD dull, even with the current limited content. 
No issue that there is no workbench on Hushed Valley. You can travel for crafting elsewhere, Hushed Valley still has plenty to give, no need for it to be able to provide everything. Life aint perfect, afterall

Almost forgot! Cleaning! Very happy you renewed this idea we share. I once had an idea that certain places in the game could be "cleaned" which would be an action, similar to foraging wood or crafting clothes. After spending an X amount of hours cleaning, the interior of the place would become "neatly" arranged. Sometimes, cupboards would be fixed. Bodies moved out and perphaps burried under a mohyl of stones, as is customary amongst canadian natives, etc. Many of the old indoors had much less "messy" looks in the past then they have now. I think this is a very neat idea Hinterland should consider. I know plenty of players made their wishes that they would like to rearrange their bases to look more lively. 

3. I dont think I understand you here. The maps are technically progressive. There are resources placed on the map which can be removed, and then, if you "re chalk" that area, they will be gone. Pretty useful to finding animal carcasses sometimes this way. I dont see a problem with crafting more advanced maps, but I dont think it will neccesarily add more to the "long term" goals of the game. Pretty sure you can play the game indefinitedly if you manage to see it from a different angle . For me, the game never grows old. Always time to go for a wood collecting trip, or just go for a three day trip to Hushed Valley to observe deer and other animals. Or watch the wolves pace around at Desolation point. Go build a safety outpost, or resssuply an existing one. Or just go out for a hike and hope for an aurora on Forlorn Muskeg. Not everything in TLD needs to have a "survivalist" point - there are things you just do to live and enjoy your life. Like Proenekke did when he went watching animals and record them on his camera.

4. I enjoy this idea very much. But there is a slight issue with "player made marks" - they could be used to determine a precise location on a charcoal map. I think I have a solution to this - rather then have the game "fit" the point for you, the player would have to "manually" place it on the filled out map. That way, player can mess up, and even then the location of that "stash" may not be so easy to find.
I love the idea of being able to create "marks" to orientation. My issue, however, is that this may not be so easy to implement. I honestly have no idea how to do this. How could the existing "hard" map allow to create markings in the trees and such? If you have more ideas on how to do this, let me know!

5 & 6 & 7. More variety is always good. I would also like to see some "findables" - like, lets say, an evergreen twig with needles. Collect several of those, and you can boil yourself a tea - which could be a "renewable" way to get a "hot beverage" kind of drink item. Such twigs could be found at the same places like normal sticks... I like the idea of more plants, and more wildlife. Not easy to implement, and could create some difficulties with crafting systems right now, but I think it would make TLD all the more interesting. Regardless if seasons come, I really, REALLY love the idea of repopulation - and also, extinction events. Say, a player hunts out all the deer and rabbits in the area - they take much longer to start spawning again. It would force the player to keep some animals alive in the area, and move more and further away from homebase in search of food. Similar to the overal world degradation setting, but it could be reversible.

And, lets apply this to plants, too! some locations grow a lot of plants. Leaving some in the area, they the harvested ones could eventually re-grow. I would like to see some regrowth in the game. Again, this could be a setting optimizable by the player.

As for smarter wildlife - I am all for it. People mentioned migrating wolf packs in the past. Love these ideas. But could be really tricky to code. AI is not exactly easy to code as far as I know.

I think mountain lions were a possibility. They used to be mentioned on the TLD road maps. I wonder if they will make it into the game. Would definitedly love the constant danger of a stealthy predator. Also, I would really enjoy if there were animals, endemic to specific regions... for example, lets assume that bighorn rams and mountain lions made it into the game... it would be great if these animals could only be encountered at Timberwolf mountain, or Hushed Valley. It would force players to go hunt for them there.

8 & 9 & 14. NPCs. Again, something that was on the roadmaps. Also, a controversial topic. Some people dont want them at all, some people do. I am torn in between. I dont mind Dave, but I can live without him. I think the existence of NPCs was mainly so that you could barter with them later on. 
But, there will be no murder. For the same reason why there is never going to be cannibalism. It would affect ESRB ratings. The game cant afford that - the idea was to make the game rated for kids of 13, but it ended up being 16 due to the potential gruesome acts in the game. Murder and cannibalism would push that way past adult. 

I dont mind bartering - but what you described seems more like hoarding (pssst, dont worry, I wont tell. I am a hoarder myself... ALL the rabbit skins!) - but frankly, there is really no need to hoard everything. Sometimes, keeping that skin on a rabbit is worth it - you can use the carcass as a lure for a wolf instead, and with the skin, it looks juicier for the wolf. Just saying... but yea, bartering is fine in my book. I also believe that NPCs in the game should be very rare. And also optional to turn off by player choice in custom mode.

10. Now this topic is controversial. I dont see companions to be a very decent possibility, due to the nature of the game. You need plenty of resources to keep yourself alive. Now, you need that for two. I know there used to be a horse on roadmaps, as a "vehicle". I dont like this idea, tbh. Horse is very high maintenance, and not very suitable for the harsh weather of TLD, either. 

I could go with a dog. And no, I am not talking about taming wolves. No disrespect for people who like that idea, but I believe it would kill the immersion of the game. Wolves are wild - they are not tamable. But, the apocalypse stroke and a lot of people passed away. It is not unreasonable to think that sometimes, dogs escaped into the wilderness and became partly wild... but once a domesticated, bewildered dog can be "brought" back and become domestic again. With love, care and time, one could get a loyal dog friend to go along with his life.  I imagine that dogs would spawn similarly to wolves, in same areas, but very rarely. And domestication would not be quaranteed, would be dangerous and would require a lot of resources. Also, keeping the dog alive would require him to have some "self preservation" instincts, and the player would have to feed it, rather then the dog, "feeding" the player by providing him with too much rabbit protein. 

I imagine this would be very difficult to code. But rather cool - nothing like having a man´s best friend to share your solitude with.

11. Yes! Wonderful topic! Sanity is something TLD could definitely use. The survival can become overwhelming. Which is why tasks like simple walks from time to time could bring some more depth into the game, if they served this simple purpose - restoring one´s sanity. Getting attacked, sick or hurt would affect the morale. Same with unsuccesful tasks. Additionally, success would regain it. Taking a break from time to time would restore it a bit, also. Suffering would make it go down.

There could be tasks, like simple non-survival books reading. Just taking the "normal" burnable book and reading it to restore one´s sanity. Such books can be read over and over indefinitedly, but reading the same book over and over would decrease it´s effectiveness. Which is why you could switch different stories around... just a thought.
Regardless, sanity would be a very cool attribute to consider in TLD.

12. The way I understand it... sharpening, repairing are sort of a "sub skills" - they get better the more you do em, but they dont have levels of their own and dont really provide much in terms of bonuses, only more durability repaired or higher chance. I dont think crafting really "can" be a skill - crafting one item and another one entirely can also be completedly different tasks. You cant really unify it properly. 

13. Interesting concept, but I admit I dont quite like it, sorry. May I suggest my alternative? I would like to put together two of your opinions - the "state of hope" suggestion of 11. and the way "tasks" work. Instead of minigames, the RNG could be affected by the player´s mental state? I get the idea of adding "skill" but I dont think the minigames are the best way to go about it. Everyone will eventually learn the minigames well, and then, the game becomes dull for those players once more. Instead, if there is always a chance of failure, but the players can mitigate it by taking good care of their character, it could be more indicative of the skill then same minigames.

I dont think minigames are a bad idea - in fact, I suppose that some actions, like fishing, for instance - could be minigames. Would actually bring in some immersion... but I would not take away the RNG entirely. In survival, nothing is sureproof. There is always a risk of failure.


 That was long. I sincerely hope I did not hurt your feelings with my dissagreements. I quite enjoy constructive criticism - it helps us perfect our ideas by cooperating with others. I have a huge respect for you, @WildGPS, for taking so much time to write all of these suggestions down. If you have more ideas or if you have some remarks to my ideas, please let me know!

Actually, may I shamelessly plug in one of my old ideas here, as maybe the number 15? 
More health issues. More afflictions, diseases, and possibly even positive effects. But most importantly... progressive health issues. Things that get worse if you dont treat them. So, lets say you have a sprain... if you kept on going without treating it, you could develop a fracture. A fracture would be even further limiting, would take longer to heal and more resources, and if you ignored it still, you could develop some permanent damage this way. As in, a fracture that would be improperly set in, and would grow together poorly. Resulting in permanent loss of movement speed, inventory carry capacity, and weapon sway, etc.

Or, something as simple as a cold. Cured easily with a hot meal or a beverage. This could go hand-to-hand with some new cooking recipes, like a "stew", using meat and water with a pot, naturally. Or the already mentioned evergreen pines tea. 
Again, not curing the cold could develop in a flu, which, if untreated, could progress to pneumonia, a very serious illness that if left untreated, would surely kill the player.

Another idea that stemed out of this suggestion in the past were the animal attacks. In cooperation with other forum members we thought of this: While one attack would leave you hurt, getting attacked repeatedly in a certain period of time (even if you were cured entirely) would run a risk of getting a permanent damage. This would make the game more challenging, because players would be desperate to try and avoid getting attacked by wildlife, as opposed to some current tactics, where players strip of equipment and tussle with wolves to kill them without the use of weapons.

If this would be interesting to you, I digged out the old topic. The initial idea was mostly focused on bandages, but there were some other ideas in there later on. I am thinking of revisiting this topic, clean and dust it off a bit. 

 

[MarrowStone]

On 11/7/2018 at 8:46 PM, Mroz4k said:

Why do we need one? Why cant the TLD we all know and love just keep evolving further and further? 

Some changes would require an almost total overhaul of the game's current systems and would be much more effectively done from scratch and on an updated engine. The initial scope of a game can affect how easily certain features and technology can be tacked onto it later on. 

Seasons would be quite a challenge to implement and not many games have accomplished a seamless transition between them. If TLD1 ever saw spring, we'd most likely see things suddenly pop up green and grassy upon waking up one morning with a text in all caps annnouncing its arrival, "SPRING". The sheer amount of new assets and systems would make the game much larger and require a lot of work for the entire team. 

I'm definitely in agreement in your point that I kind of want to see what other IPs the studio will explore, I love TLD, but I recognize that after 4+ years of work on it they must be itching to try out some new rad Ideas!

Hopefully once mod support happens we could have Hinterland work on some new game while we also get the "TLD we all know and love" its constantly evolving status.

That said, you won't see me complaining if they do find a way to make an overhaul of the seasons system.

Also, y'all have some pretty good ideas. :3

PS, I'd personally like to see the mending skill have its own ranks and merge it with clothes crafting (get extra skill points in mending by crafting clothes, and maybe improvements to your crafted gear on higher levels). Forging could have ranks and be tied into the old sharpening skill. The rifle and cleaning skill should merge as well (your rifle skill used to raise when using cleaning kits, which made sense because cleaning a rifle regularly should help you be more accustomed to handling/operating it).

[Ardawna]

I love all the comments and suggestions here.  I have no idea what it would take for the development team to implement them.

1.  Seasons is a great idea.  It could even be weather seasons.  Sometimes it's more blizzard than other times.  Maybe there is a "warm" spell where you are able to find additional plants to forage.

2.  Foraging and Cooking!  I love this idea.  The cattails are great but more forage would be marvelous.  I suck horribly trying to aim a rock at a rabbit and kill it.  This has never been a successful thing for me.  I rely 100% on snares for this.  If I could forage more plants, that would help.  And beefing up cooking would be awesome!  So if you have some additional things to add to your rabbit, maybe yo could make rabbit stew which would last a lot longer than a single rabbit without making it into stew.  Being the frugal person that I am, I know how to stretch a whole rabbit or chicken into many, many meals - having this ability in game would be awesome.  Maybe if we had things like 25 lb bags of rice, beans, flour that if we found a sack of this, it would last a really long time and help add to cooking.

3.  Lengthen the time it takes for items to be "used up" and useless and clothing to be torn up and useless.  I have a whetstone that I have had (and used regularly) for 30 years and it is still in great shape.  I get that it is part of the game mechanics but it would be nice to have tools that will last a while before becoming useless.  It would be nice if we could use rocks for sharpening axes and knives. Maybe it just takes longer if you use a rock.  I like having to repair my clothing but having it get torn up wearing it outside in bad weather wears on me.  I can see bad weather causing the clothing to get wet and less insulative  but not all torn up (unless I meet up with a wolf).  The can opener should last forever.  Again, I do realize that this is part of the game mechanics currently but ... they asked! 

4. Badges/Challenges - more!  Cooking, mending, foraging, harvesting, surviving, hording, timed events or timed challenges. So many thoughts and ideas!

5.  The idea of bartering with an NPC is appealing.  It would be a nice way to get hard to find items or repair items that you really want to keep on you (like axes and knives).

TLD is one of my favorite all time games.  I love it for so many reasons. I can play it any time.  I don't have to wait for a large group to gather to move forward.  No tank, no healer, just me and the elements... a few wolves and maybe a bear or a pissed of moose.  I love all the suggestions/ideas that @WildGPS made in their comments.  Excellent ideas - thank you @WildGPS.  I love the idea of having berries and fruit.  Maybe find a shotgun and then you can hunt ducks and geese (and rabbits).