Suggestions for Rifle Modelling

[Canadian Beaver]

Hi there,

first post and I just want to express how wondrous I've found this game so far. As sad as this sounds, this is the first thing in a long time that has made me proud to be a Canadian.

Anyways, to the meat of my post. When I'm wondering through the foothills around ML looking to take that last wolf to finish my new coat, I can't help but be bothered by the anatomically incorret firearm in my ghostly hands.

Before I explain why, I'll give you a bit of my background in order to lend me a bit of credibility. I am a current serving officer of the Canadian Army, and I have been collecting guns since I was 13. I have shot the gamut of firearms, from classic winchester 1894's to C-6 General Purpose Machine Guns.

So, I think that most of us get that the rifle is supposed to be a Lee-Enfield. I mean, the .303 British ammunition is a dead giveaway, and the 4kg weight is right on what a classic Enfield weighs. Now, if I extrapolate from the fittings that are depicted on the rifle right now, Devs intended it to be a No. 1 Mk 3 (no barrel protrusion at the the front, minimal taper in the handguards). Now this is where it starts to bug me.

In the first place, all Enfield rifles have a detachable 10 round box magazine that protrudes from the bottom of the rifle just in front of the trigger guard; in fact, it is one of the most distinctive features of the Enfield rifles. The rifle in the game has the magazine well (place where the mag goes into the rifle) textured into it, but no magazine as part of the model.

The second thing that drives me crazy is the rear sight. In the game, there's this weird circular aperture fused with a rear leaf sight. As someone who actually shoots, it confuses me as I don't know whether to bury the front post in the leaf, or center the post in the circle. Anyways, it does not reflect the sights that are actually on a Lee-Enfield. The Enfield has a front post that is located between two flat plates (see image 1: SMLE front sight.jpg) and in the case of no 1 Mk 3's, the rear sight is either a blade sight (see image 2: Different Rear Sights.jpg and reference the photo furthest to the left) or a sight that is way too high speed for a guy like me (see image 3:Fancy Stuff.jpg). I think that Devs should choose to go with one rear sight or the other, and should add the protector to the front sight.

I wish I could go to the studio and show the Devs what I mean on my own Lee-Enfield, but I live in Onterrible, and I don't get out to the Island very often.

[Stytch Fingal]

9 hours ago, Canadian Beaver said:

 

I wish I could go to the studio and show the Devs what I mean on my own Lee-Enfield, but I live in Onterrible, and I don't get out to the Island very often.

 

 

Nice detailed info. I find it fascinating (as I know very little about firearms). Maybe you could post a photo of your Lee-Enfield's rear sight for the devs to get a look at?

[Canadian Beaver]

12 minutes ago, Stytch Fingal said:

Nice detailed info. I find it fascinating (as I know very little about firearms). Maybe you could post a photo of your Lee-Enfield's rear sight for the devs to get a look at?

I could do that; however my rifle is a newer model of Lee-Enfield than the one that I think the Devs are trying to model. If I knew what rifle it was really intended to be, I could give better information.

Anyways, here's some photos of my rifle. I apologize for the photo of the sight picture. I needed both of my hands for the camera and was aiming the rifle with my chest What's supposed to be happening there (photo 1: LE No 4 Sight Picture.jpg) is that the front post is supposed to be in the centre of the rear "battle sight" circle, and-as attempted in the picture-the front post should be directly under your intended point of impact, in what's called a "six o'clock hold". You can see a detailed view of the front sight in photo 2 (LE No 4 Front Sight.jpg). The post I refer to is the blade that can be seen between those 2 upright plates with holes in them. Also note that on my No 4 Mk I, the barrel protrudes past the sight, which is why I identified the rifle in the game as a No I Mk 3. A more detailed view of the rear sight can be seen in photo 3 (LE No 4 Rear Sight.jpg). There's a peep sight that flips up there too, but I never use it to kill deer. A view of what the No 4 looks like as a whole can be seen in photo 4 (LE No 4.jpg). She's a fairly pretty gun, and would be more "Canadian correct" as 1940 to 1945 Lee-Enfield No 4 Mk I 'Longbranch' Lee-Enfields were the only ones ever to be manufactured in Canada, and are a huge point of pride for many Canadian firearms enthusiasts.

On a plus side, the Devs got the stripper clips exactly right, as seen in photo 5 (303 Cartridge Clip.jpg). Note the grey tip on the ammo. The ammo without the grey tip-as found in the game-is actual called Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) and it usually tears right through things. The round you see in photo 5 is a Jacketed Soft Point (JSP). People don't use FMJ for hunting, as it's designed to go straight through things and imparts very little hydrostatic shock (the stuff that stops you dead in your tracks) to its target. JSP has the lead of the bullet exposed at the tip and it mushrooms as it impacts its target, causing much more hydrostatic shock and in fact making it easier to clean the animal. But anyways, I digress from things relevant to this game.

For what the sight picture were to look like if the rifle is supposed to be a No I Mk 3, I do not have that specific rife to demonstrate with, but I used another rifle with a similar sight setup to try and illustrate. If you look at photo 6 (Rear Leaf Picture.jpg) you can see my sorry attempt at holding a 10 lb rifle on target with no hands. What's supposed to be happening is the front post is supposed to be buried in the notch of the rear sight so that the top of the post is in line with the top of the lands on either side of the notch. The tip of the post is then supposed to cover your intended point of impact. It looks like I was a little low in that picture. The front post of this setup can be seen in photo 7 (Leaf Front Post.jpg). Pay no attention to the ring around this front sight, that's a Soviet thing. The rear sight in this setup can be seen in photo 8 (Rear Leaf Sight.jpg).

Wow, that was really long winded.

[hauteecolerider]

As someone who grew up with some pretty old rifles, I found your post just right! Interesting, too. Some of these sights are familiar to me, though I honestly can't for the life of me remember which of my Dad's rifle has which sight. 

Except for the Soviet front ring on the second rifle, all of these sights (including the peep sight that's folded down on your Lee-Enfield) are quite recognizable to me. It does explain why I knew how to aim the rifle in the game, though it took me a while to figure out its "sweet spot." Like the arrows in Skyrim, they don't always go straight to the crosshair but tend to hit a little to one side or the other. I'm quite sure that IRL, many guns have their own unique quirks, especially the older ones.

By the way, @Canadian Beaver, beautiful Lee-Enfield! The gun in my TLD games don't look so well cared for!

[Canadian Beaver]

@hauteecolerider, thanks, I try to take good care of all of my weapons. Even in TLD, I break out the cleaning kit almost after every shot. Blame the army and having to clean out the gunk from crew-served automatic weapons.

As to the "sweet spot" for weapons, sights actually need to be adjusted to the shooter. Everyone has their own optimal eye relief, and the way your eye lines up the two components is going to be different than mine. 

Another thing that affects that is bullet characteristics. The Soviet Mosin-Nagant rifle is the perfect example. Because of the shape and weight of the projectile, the bullet can drop over 6 inches at 100 yards. The rifles were sighted in at the factory for 300 yards, so Soviet soldiers were taught to UNDERSHOOT their targets at closer ranges. gotta love Russians.

[hauteecolerider]

11 minutes ago, Canadian Beaver said:

As to the "sweet spot" for weapons, sights actually need to be adjusted to the shooter. Everyone has their own optimal eye relief, and the way your eye lines up the two components is going to be different than mine.

True, and if you don't adjust the sights, you learn to compensate for them. That's the way the game rolls. IRL, yes, you can adjust the sights, but in games, you can't. So I've just learned how to adjust my aim to compensate for that issue. Sort of like the Russians . . . 

[Canadian Beaver]

5 hours ago, hauteecolerider said:

I've just learned how to adjust my aim to compensate for that issue. Sort of like the Russians . . . 

Yeah, I've been going through that process too. Seems like a damn waste of ammo though. Oh well, that's what multiple play throughs are for, right?

[hauteecolerider]

Right!

[simarson]

I cant tell how and what I do when I shoot to hit. I do something and I hit. If I think to much of it in the moment I don't hit. Its a weird thing about feelings contra thinking and the combination of those 2.

 

[Canadian Beaver]

5 hours ago, simarson said:

I cant tell how and what I do when I shoot to hit. I do something and I hit. If I think to much of it in the moment I don't hit. Its a weird thing about feelings contra thinking and the combination of those 2.

 

Funny thing is, that often happens in real-life shooting, particularly at competitions. This is why I have to by crates of 1000s of rounds and blast through half of it to get good at shooting a rifle; the sight picture should be so natural that it becomes second nature.

[cekivi]

First @Canadian Beaver welcome to the forums

Second, I hope this gets changed as well. Sadly, a lot of the hunting improvements I keep asking for most players don't care for. Something about not wanting a hunting simulator. Oh well. Their loss. That's also a beautiful example of a Lee-Enfield.

[hauteecolerider]

35 minutes ago, Canadian Beaver said:

Funny thing is, that often happens in real-life shooting, particularly at competitions. This is why I have to by crates of 1000s of rounds and blast through half of it to get good at shooting a rifle; the sight picture should be so natural that it becomes second nature.

It's a combination of muscle memory and sight lines/visual sweet spots. When you are accustomed to holding that rifle, it becomes an extension of your body. Then you can throw it up to your shoulder and pretty much hit anything you look at. 

Overthinking always messes things up. Same is true of horseback riding, especially things like barrel racing, reining, and my personal favorite, dressage. It's done primarily by feel - just how much pressure to apply in what spot to get the horse to perform the courbette or clear that triple combination.

I guess this is true of just about anything you can think of. Except developing physics theory, of course . . .

[Stytch Fingal]

On 6/12/2016 at 2:58 PM, Canadian Beaver said:

Wow, that was really long winded.

 

No, sir, not long-winded---fascinating. Thank you, that's great infol

[MarrowStone]

They actually changed the sights to the current ones in ealrier update, saying it helped new players aim or something, ill try to look the patch notes, i cant remember what the previous sights were but maybe they were closer to an authentic enfield?

[cekivi]

8 minutes ago, MarrowStone said:

They actually changed the sights to the current ones in ealrier update, saying it helped new players aim or something, ill try to look the patch notes, i cant remember what the previous sights were but maybe they were closer to an authentic enfield?

If memory serves the older sights were closer to traditional iron sights found on most hunting rifles. Similar to some of @Canadian Beaver's pictures actually but without the ring around the front sight.

[MarrowStone]

5 minutes ago, cekivi said:

If memory serves the older sights were closer to traditional iron sights found on most hunting rifles. Similar to some of @Canadian Beaver's pictures actually but without the ring around the front sight.

Yeah, i thought so, i just know they added that odd circle aperture in the rear sight on that update 

[Patrick Carlson]

10 minutes ago, cekivi said:

If memory serves the older sights were closer to traditional iron sights found on most hunting rifles. Similar to some of @Canadian Beaver's pictures actually but without the ring around the front sight.

The rifle sights were updated with the Timberwolf Mountain update, when we introduced a few different other changes to the rifle (jamming, fatigue/rifle sway).

Essentially the circle sight was added to help players line up an accurate shot more efficiently. 

@Canadian Beaver Really interesting thoughts/images on the rifle. Very much appreciated! 

[Nasdaq401]

Awesome! 

[Rusty_Old_F250]

I don't have much to add here, other than to say it's good to see another guy on here who has an Enfield! Mine is a Pattern 1914, sporterized by a previous owner. I was originally in the market for a 30-06, but none of the ones I looked at "talked" to me like this one, I just kept coming back to it and finally decided to just buy it. I'm glad I did, it's a sweetheart!

Ammo sure isn't cheap though...

Sam

[Canadian Beaver]

On 2016-06-25 at 10:23 PM, Rusty_Old_F250 said:

 

Ammo sure isn't cheap though..

Yeah really. Where I live run of the mill federal is more than $1.50 a shot!

Oh well, just more motivation to start reloading...which I hear may be coming to TLD!

[Rusty_Old_F250]

No kidding! I have been shooting Prvi PPU lately, I found it online for about 70 cents a round. I have been tempted to try the Wolf, it's just a bit cheaper....

Sam

[TROY]

@Canadian Beaver  First, I'm saddened to hear it took this game for you to feel pride in being a Canadian. I'm a U.S. citizen, but technically half Canadian, and I wish more and more all the time that General Arnold had set the border a bit further west.   More on topic, I hope the devs will pay some heed to your suggestions. I've always found the in game sight to be confusing and detrimental to accuracy. 

[TSmith]

On 6/13/2016 at 6:24 PM, cekivi said:

First @Canadian Beaver welcome to the forums

Second, I hope this gets changed as well. Sadly, a lot of the hunting improvements I keep asking for most players don't care for. Something about not wanting a hunting simulator. Oh well. Their loss. That's also a beautiful example of a Lee-Enfield.

I care.

Very happy that the rifle was "nerfed" with the addition of the Skills, The gun is way under powered, inaccurate before, well it still is until you level up. The devs at least gave it more knockdown power, accuracy, and distance when leveling up

Bring on the reloading press !!! 

[Resin]

Really nice post here.

I think some 'hunting simulator' aspects would actually be nice.

It also makes me think having more than one type of rifle could be interesting, particularly if they did not take the same size ammo, and had significant advantage disadvantage choices to them.

I am not someone who knows that much about guns really, but I do remember my grandfather would cap his own shells, he some specialized hand/table tools to press the front on. I think this could (maybe?) make some interesting crafting, especially if having the right ammo for the right gun were a real concern. (oh, and I haven't played through the bear challenge yet, so if there is a second type of gun there I am just not up to that yet

[starfighter441]

On 6/12/2016 at 7:58 PM, Canadian Beaver said:

On a plus side, the Devs got the stripper clips exactly right, as seen in photo 5 (303 Cartridge Clip.jpg). Note the grey tip on the ammo. The ammo without the grey tip-as found in the game-is actual called Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) and it usually tears right through things. The round you see in photo 5 is a Jacketed Soft Point (JSP). People don't use FMJ for hunting, as it's designed to go straight through things and imparts very little hydrostatic shock (the stuff that stops you dead in your tracks) to its target. JSP has the lead of the bullet exposed at the tip and it mushrooms as it impacts its target, causing much more hydrostatic shock and in fact making it easier to clean the animal. But anyways, I digress from things relevant to this game.

 

 

 

 

Pedant mode on...

Full metal jacket to be sure, but the forward end was filled with aluminium making the rear end heavier, causing it to tumble upon hitting a target ( see the Wikipedia entry on the . 303 British round, specifically the Mk VII.)  Thus while it fulfilled the FMJ requirements of the Hague convention, it retained the damage of a soft point.

Pedant mode off...