UpUpAway95

5 minutes ago, Morrick said:

Yes, well, I too have used improvised objects as trail markers, like tinder plugs and recycled cans. The problem — for me — is that these items are too small for that purpose. My idea was to have a marker that was bigger and more visible at a distance, without having to scour the ground to locate it. Campfires as trail markers are an interesting solution, though perhaps a bit wasteful (a stick is enough to start a campfire, but unless you're using an already-lit item as fire-starter, or a magnifying lens, you'd waste a match every time).

Sometimes I wish the game let me take and place certain bigger items (like brooms and planks), instead of only giving me the option to break them down.

Anyway, I thought it was a cool addition... 🤷‍♂️

The problem I have with allowing the player to just plop down a large marker (like, say, an Inukshuk) is that they don't carry the necessary items in their inventory (which should be weighty) to do so and it should take a fair amount of in-game time (while getting cold, etc.) to construct such a signpost. 

If you want to make a visible trail in all weather, you can do so by dropping a tinder plug every step... for example, from a particular fishing hut to the shore in CH.  This leaves what is clearly a trail you made regardless of how the plugs drop and one that is able to be easily followed no matter how foggy it gets.

1 hour ago, Dr. S. said:

I use tinder plugs for this. You can drop one for a quick marker or arrange them to form a V or an arrow if you want something more sophisticated. 

I also mostly use tinder plugs for this.  They are not needed for anything else once the player reaches fire starting 3, can be readily made from sticks if I don't have any on me, and can be placed to make arrows or other symbols to which I can assign a variety of meanings.  I really don't see a need to add a special item just for the purpose of marking trails.

Cattails, stones, and now even the charcoal that people don't want auto-added to their inventories can also be placed in the snow to draw arrows and other symbols to mark locations and trailheads.

I like having the option to break down fires; but since wolves no longer fear fire, I really don't think there are going to be a lot of them that I'll be breaking down anyways... so whether or not they just put the charcoal into my inventory or not is not a big issue for me.  If I don't need it for gunpowder or mapping, I'll just store it on the first corpse I encounter (which is what I do with my excess tinder anyways.

I think a toggle choice in the UI as we're breaking down the fire would be the best solution.  That way, if you do need/want the charcoal, you wouldn't accidentally lose it by forgetting to grab it before breaking down the fire.

An actual use for empty cans... I'm in.

12 hours ago, Asinine said:

I hate to say, but I didn't realise the reishi/rosehip tea thirst was a bug. I mean, I see their use in interloper (which I haven't managed to live more than 28 hours), but outside of interloper they're useless. I thought it was some feature to make that useful for us lesser-challenged-prefered folks.

I play a lot at lesser-challenged difficulties and I find the teas very useful.  I drink a lot of the rosehip teas to quickly get rid of pain from sprains (which I get a lot of since I travel encumbered with all the loot that's available at those easier levels).  As mentioned, they do now again quench thirst and they provide calories... and they are much lighter to carry than the sodas you find or even water and the equivalent calories in food.  You can still get food poisoning in Pilgrim mode and, if you're really wanting it, just eat some raw meat... and then you can use those built up Reshi Teas to get a full 10-hours worth of sleep (just in case you've flipped to day/night cycle and want to get it back on track.  If you're going for a lot of days survived, then most of the antibiotics and pain killers you'll find will be in very low condition or have disappeared from the medicine cabinets in the world in your later zones you visit.  The reshi mushrooms and rosehips, however, don't deteriorate regardless of whether they are still on the bush/stump or stored in a container at your base or made already into teas.

Timberwolves.

1 hour ago, MrsValkyrieCat said:

I know they almost killed me more then once, what i ment is that were I live in Norway at the local cannery its really safe to eat unlike ingame  

Sorry, I misunderstood your post.  IRL... I haven't had sardines in many years.  I used to like them alot as a kid (unlike all of my mates).

If you're not getting sick, it's just because you've been lucky.  Kneel and thank the RNG gods, right away.

When the update dropped, I started a run in Bleak Inlet, so I really needed the food when I looted the cannery.  I had, fortunately found 1 bottle of antibiotics... I got food poisoning 3 times in a row from the Sardines and used up all those antibiotics (as well as lost 30 hours of "run time' because I had to sleep it off as well.  The sardines at the cannery are no safer than those anywhere else in the game.

Desolation Point Lighthouse... when it works.

Just a guess - Are you trying to follow the map in the Wiki?  That map, which does show a passage running from the Spruce Falls area to the Radio Tower, is out of date.  The passage shown on that map was blocked off when HL redid Wintermute Episodes 1 & 2 (Redux).

33 minutes ago, Morrick said:

Yes, I agree. And in fact, what I was trying to suggest was to have just a mild introduction to the absolute basics, not "The Long Dark Survival Course in 35 Practical Lessons". What experienced players of this game tend to forget is many basics they take for granted may not be that obvious for new players.

Example: this is an excerpt from a chat with an acquaintance (let's call him Bob) who bought the game after seeing how enthustiastic I was about it and after seeing many screenshots I had taken:

 

BOB: Okay, I found some clothes. The guy complains he's cold but he seems to hold on. The parameters here say he's "parched" though!

ME: Do you have water in inventory?

BOB: No. Where do I get it?

ME: You can *make* water. You start a fire (you need tinder, some matches, and some fuel like sticks or logs) and then you can use the recycled can to melt snow.

BOB: I got matches, sticks and "reclaimed wood". Shit, I threw the can away.

ME: Haha, why!

BOB: I figured who needs an empty battered can!?

 

I still believe an introductory video that covers the basics would help guys like Bob a lot. How to make water. How to start a fire and what you need. A few essential items you should look for first when you start a game. A brief overview of the weapons available. A brief overview of the dangers. An orientation briefing, not a survival manual.

 

I agree... I see absolutely no harm in HL putting up a few basic instructions under a "tutorial" category on the main menu screen.  As I said, they could even just implement a search feature for the random tips that appear on the load screens they already have in the game so that a confused player could call up some help from within the game to answer such basic questions.  That's basically organizing the random tips that are already there in a way that makes them accessible when the player wants to see them or even just to be able to read them if they became distracted while the game was in the load screen and didn't quite catch what it said.  It makes those tips more useful.

I don't see why there is such "controversy" over this.  It does not affect the experiences of more long-term players or players with better intuition who can figure things out for themselves unassisted in any way.

Some players do not want to play the story at all... just as some players don't want to "forced" to play challenges to earn feats.  I don't see where one desire to play one way is valid while the other is not. 

50 minutes ago, jeffpeng said:

@ThePancakeLadyI mostly agree. But since they actually did put a tutorial in the game with Story Mode and even expanded on that with Redux .... Why not put in a mention for new players "Hey dawg, you might wanna play a round of Wintermute! It has a great story and also teaches you some of the basics of the game. Also has a blind lady with a rifle."

That's a fair point. I still wouldn't want a 10 step tutorial, and I think the first two Episodes of Wintermute teach you most relevant things in a way that doesn't feel like sitting through school all over again like most tutorials. Also Wintermute teaches you that in a rather safe environment: The difficulty really is forgiving, especially since you can reload after biting the dust.

Basically that's my stance: Direct new players to play Wintermute first and everything should be fine for most people. The deeper mechanics of the game are still subject to discovery, and if one really wants to become a TLD professional quick there are indeed more than enough resources on the interwebs.

The thing is "Directing new players to play Wintermute first" is now directing them to play several hours of a story before even attempting Survival mode.  It  worked when the story was one episode and there were not so many different mechanics in the game; but for players that just want to look up how to, say, get a late-game mechanic like the mill running or determining whether or not they can even use the workbench in that shop to craft something other than bullets, it's not that helpful.  Wiki's are more helpful in this regard;  but as I've already said, there is no actual obligation for the community to keep all that information accurate or current.  It's great that they do, but confusing when they don't... and, in my experience, sooner or later, interest in keeping them up dies off.

No one is compelling players to open a "tutorial" section.  They are free to view Youtubers and can ignore the signle word "Tutorials" on their menu screen.  It doesn't affect their game unless they want to use it.  No one is asking HL to include precise instructions on every aspect of the game either.  Even putting in a "search" function based on key words to call up individual screen tips on demand would be a big help.  Inserting an archive of the videos Raph makes when new mechanics are introduced would help... If he would expand on them just a little bit - even better... IMHO, of course.

22 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

The game was always advertised as "no hand-holding". The early versions of the game, when it was Sandbox Mode only, only one experience mode... you were thrown to the wolves, and has to learn things for yourself. It was thrilling, challenging, frustrating (and can still be experienced that way through the Time Capsule versions...), and you learned things "the hard way", learned from each death, and developed your own strategies.

We jump to now. Loading screens have hints on them, little bits of tutorial, if you read them. Wintermute has a tutorial built in, if you read the more detailed information the messages give you. There are guides and walkthroughs on Steam, online, video guides posted by streamers. One of the first streamers I watched before buying the game years ago was @Willowest. Who was calm, explained what she was doing and why. Other streamers such as @accurize2, @GELtaz, @Hadrian, @Atheenon and others, taught me many things, in much the same way. All with their own playstyles, that taught me that many things could be done, in different ways, for different reasons. The same goes for the vets here and on Steam who openly and happily share their knowledge with new players who ask for help and guidance.

The "tutorials" are out there for people who want them, want to find them. How would Hinterland add a tutorial that covered everything? All of the different ways we can choose to play the to game? If they skipped any single thing, or method, or strategy- would they be chastised for forgetting to tell us something? IMHO, the way they have done it feels best, for me, for this kind of game. "Forcing" or allowing us each to figure things out, talk to each other to get tips and tricks, developing our own individual playstyles.  I disagree that they should have , or still should, add a "full tutorial" to Survival Mode. Players helping players builds a stronger Community, a group that comes together and helps each other. Instead of some communities found on Steam, fr example, where the "community" is not united, but rather exists for infighting, "gitgud" threads, and "n00b hate" threads. It would be so difficult to cover it all, and do it right, in a way that satisfies *most* players. And so easy to to it wrong, and invite anger and attacks from people who thought they did it wrong. 

 

TL;DR: I think the game is as it should be, with no tutorial, but with a strong, curated community who helps each other on the forums, creating guides, walkthroughs, videos... in the way it has been done already. The TLD Community is one of the most helpful, friendly, outreaching, and welcoming Communities because of this. Just my 2¢. YMVMV.

So you want new people to have to watch hundreds of hours of others playing the game, including videos where the gameplay may or may not have changed since the video was posted to Youtube, just to find information on a particular game mechanic that they are personally struggling with.  It's not like Youtubers go back and pull their tips and tricks videos and redo them every time Hinterlands changes a mechanic.  They seldom even flag them as being out of date.  Search for videos on how to handle wolves and the ones that are likely to come to the top are the older ones that have been watched many more times.  What about sifting out all the times when those Youtubers were simply mistaken about how something worked because they were really just learning it themselves during a stream?  What about Youtubers who just number their streams and don't even give any indication what part of the game they're playing in that episode?

What aobut the Wiki - sure the Whiteberry maps are great... but who is obligated or responsible for redoing them now that they are out of date and seriously out of date for some zones.  In that now they do contain misinformation, they are currently probably more confusing for new players to use than no map at all.  An ingame tutorial by HL telling players clearly that they don't provide a map and including some tips for using the environment (like the placement of rose hips, etc.) would actually be more helpful to new players to each their anxieties about not seeing one immediately upon opening their inventory.

Just because oldtimers had to learn it the "hard way" doesn't mean that all new players should have to as well.  This shouldn't be a gauntlet weeding out the 'hardy" players from the not so hardy (i.e. casual) ones.  Anyone who buys the game should be able to enjoy playing the game.  Ensuring that accurate and accessible information about how to play the game is "out there" is ultimately the responsibility of the devs because they are the ones selling that game to customers.

ETA:  I want to be clear... I do think this community is great and has done a great job with their videos and the Wiki and the maps.  In reality, the community is doing the hand-holding that HL doesn't do.  However, it is simply not the community's obligation to maintain those things.  The burden for basic "how to play" instructions rests on HL's shoulders.

It's like a custom game, only it also removes the need to find certain stuff.  I don't really undderstand the attitude some players have that modding shouldd be OK, but playing in a custom game is "cheating" when it comes to grinding out feats.

I've seen requests for Hinterlands to add custom settings that enable players to control their starting gear.  It still doesn't change the grind nature of getting feats though.  This character would still have to actually start 1,000 fires, travel 1,000 kms while sprinting 50 of them, spend 20 days outside during blizzards, snaring 100 rabbits, etc... That is, the player still has to spend time in the game to earn them.  In the case of this mod thought, it makes the desire to obtain the feat rather meaningless since the perk it gives is totally unnecessary.  So, for feats, I absolutely have no problem with them staying active for this sort of game.

Achievements, which currently do stay active for custom games, I have no problem with Hinterlands making it such that those can only be obtained with an unmodded and non-custom game setting. 

However, I do still see the comparisons of difficulties already meaningless for this game.  Allowing modding would just re-inforce that meaningless-ness.  Interloper is different than stalker, more difficult in some ways and with certain playstyles than interloper.  In Pilgrim, killing wolves now is nigh on impossible and hunting large game like moose and bear can also be quite difficult since all these animals run the moment they detect the player.   Different custom settings can make the game more difficult in a variety of different ways.  It's not going to happen, but I still say we'd be better off eliminating the standard difficulties altogether.  At least the arguments here over it would have to stop.

Another thing:  Obviously, not supporting modding has not prevented modding from happening either.  What's a dev to do?

24 minutes ago, Morrick said:

*Takes notes*

"Remember not to mention the word tutorial ever again in these forums" 

I still like the idea.

The idea of a compass has come up many times.  However, it is felt that the nature of the geomagnetic storm that brought down MacKenzie's plane would render compasses unusable anyways.  If it didn't conflict with the game lore, I'd be all for it.

However, there are several tricks you can use to find your way.  For example, if you travel in a straight line, you can use the fact that items, like sticks, dropped from your inventory will drop "pointing" in a single direction specific to that type of item.  So, if as you leave your base, you drop your axe or even a stick and note which way it pointed relative to the direction you want to travel... and then, if a storm closes in, you'll be able to just drop your axe or a stick again and walk in the reverse direction relative to which way it points in order to find your way back to your base.   If you're changing direction, you can also mark your turns with stones or pieces of tinder (even shaping them into arrows).

I don't generally map or use maps at all anymore.  To find shelters and paths, I look for old man's beard, rose hips, reshi mushrooms, and the fallen trees that seem to point towards caves and such.  I only harvest old man's beard, rose hips, or reshi's as I need them and I try to leave at least one behind to continue to act as a marker if I need to come back to that particular cave again. 

However, some sort of market locating the player on the ingame map would certainly make those maps more useful.

I don't think you're finding new firestrikers though.  You're finding ones that have already been almost completely used up by their previous owners and either discarded by them as no longer really being useful or that the owner was unfortunately unable to finish using up because they perished. 

I don't think it's really necessary to increase the number of strikes one gets from a firestriker anyways.  The boost firestrikers give to the chance of successfully lighting a fire is really only relevant during the early game.  Once the player reaches Level 3, all that's needed to have a 100% chance of success is a book.  At Level 4, a stick will have a 95% chance if the player is using a flare, wooden match, magnifying lens, or torch.  Of course, if you light a torch first, you then have multiple chances to light a fire regardless of your firestarting skill level.

I don't think the game is programmed in a way that would allow for players to change the environment in large ways like felling trees.  The trees are part of the setpiece art rather than being interactive items spawned into the world.  Also, the payoff of 150 pieces of wood and 100 pieces of tinder for a mere 5 hours of labor really defeats the intended harsh survival aspect of this game... particularly when it currently takes about 1 1/2 hours to cut up a cedar limb that yields 3 pieces of wood and 1 piece of tinder.

 🦌🦌🦌🦌🦌🦌🦌🦌🛷

A toggle would be nice.  I think it has not been done to prevent people from accidentally walking their character off a cliff.  The game is permadeath after all.

I would like for Survival to stay solitary.  I wouldn't mind finding some notes on corpses revealing their stories.  For example, it would be nice to know more about this couple since Hinterland did such a great job posing them:

I know I have found shell casings in Carter Dam and I've found a can of gunpowder somewhere in Mystery Lake (it might have been in the dam, but I can't remember).  This was, however, a new start since Errant Pilgrim dropped.  I did not have any saves from before that time to try.

1 hour ago, MrWolf said:

I was wearing a bear coat (Interloper) when Errant Pilgrim was released and I went into the new region and was attacked by Timberwolves.  I don't have much experience with Timberwolves, but the bear coat didn't seem to have any effect at that time.

I guess that answers that.  Too bad... I was hoping for a magic bullet.  Thanks.

A touching scene in Bleak Inlet

20 minutes ago, Morrick said:

I have never played Story mode, and the fact that — after playing The Long Dark for one year and a half — I only learnt today about this, further proves your point. In fact, as I was reading this interesting thread, I was about to suggest that Hinterland should add a separate Tutorial, selectable in the main game menu, that puts players in a special sandbox where they learn the basic game mechanics. Heh. 

If that is additional work for Hinterland, they could make brief video tutorials each covering the most important stuff, giving some basic advice, without spoiling the fun of discovery too much.

I like this idea.  Something labeled "Tutorial" would, I think, make quite a difference in that both people who opt to use it have a clear expectation that this is a basic "learn the game" section and people opting to skip it over can  decide to take a break from whatever frustrating difficulty they are facing and enter the tutorial section to quickly learn/see what to try.  It could be a section of straight up videos (Raph has already done one of these inside the intro trailer when they changed the aiming mechanic a few updates back.  With a little expansion, even his most recent intro of the milling machine could be transformed into a tutorial) or it could be section of a short interactive "levels" on a particular mechanic or topic.  It would be a fair bit of work, no doubt... but I think it would be worth it as more and more different mechanics get added to the game.  I know that HL would like to avoid "handholding" inside the game; and that's good.  However, on the other hand, some people really do require a bit of handholding to get started in a game.  A tutorial section would make that available for those who want to use it without affecting those who prefer to learn new things the "hard way."