Magic water bottles

[sir ice]

This war had been going on for many lives. Thousands of souls slaughtered, with no resolution. Winter is coming! It seems that the largest and most controversial topic in the forums is the magic water bottle topic. Many users are upset that water bottle don't need to be collected, and are infinite. Though I personally don't care how this little war ends, I am interested in seeing this topic brought up in a poll, and I believe many others are too.

[cekivi]

I'm fairly sure the compass, electricity and how wide spread the EMP effect was are equally contentious

Personally, I'm fine with the bottles as-is depending on the difficulty. It is very easy to find tons of plastic containers even - sadly - in remote areas. There are trash bottles everywhere. I personally think it would be nice on Voyager and Stalker to need a mess kit to boil water (see below) and on Stalker difficulty to actually scavenge/save bottles.

 

 

[Dirmagnos]

Pls, stop stuffing Stalker with all kind of obnoxious idiotic "features" that only ruin mode.

Would i like to have water bottles ? Yes, most definitely, current system where fuel requires containers while water dont is weird, to put it mildly, its inconsistent(on top of fact that you cant transfer fuel between containers). Adding water containers would add an additional layer of depth to the game, if done right. But it would also require reworking of whole thirst system, being more situation dependent, rather than than working on timer.

[Patrick Carlson]

3 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Pls, stop stuffing Stalker with all kind of obnoxious idiotic "features" that only ruin mode.

Would i like to have water bottles ? Yes, most definitely, current system where fuel requires containers while water dont is weird, to put it mildly, its inconsistent(on top of fact that you cant transfer fuel between containers). Adding water containers would add an additional layer of depth to the game, if done right. But it would also require reworking of whole thirst system, being more situation dependent, rather than than working on timer.

We're certainly up to hearing suggestions without dismissing them as "idiotic," thank you! 

The use of water bottles does currently add some abstraction to the game, but not drastically so, at least in my mind. And you're right that a different mechanic would then require a re-thinking of how water is collected and used to satisfy Thirst. Say you were limited in your water boiling capacity by the size of the container you had on you--1 liter? Or perhaps you couldn't melt snow at all and would then perish that way. It's an interesting problem (although as cekivi points out, not one that would creep to the top of "most controversial"). 

[Wastelander]

6 hours ago, Patrick Carlson said:

The use of water bottles does currently add some abstraction to the game, but not drastically so, at least in my mind.

I have said it before in a number of threads I don't even dare to count anymore (and I once again, desperately, call for a sticky of commonly requested ideas), and I'll say it again, since you're completely right on the subject matter:

There is a boatload of trash literally anywhere. That trash is mostly plastic bottles and bags. Now, we may call it trash in our sheltered lives, but for someone in a TLD-situation, it's a resource. That's why I don't doubt for a second that the Survivor can have enough bottles to store all that water, enough bags to tie to to their backpack and so on. And adding this 'trash' as actual in-game items would make sense, yes, but we, the community, also know that Hinterland doesn't have unlimited resources (because otherwise it'd be the Alpha Demands forum. not the Alpha Wish List forum. Only liquid container I have ever defended and will continue to defend is the thermos to keep our coffee warm.

[Boston123]

Ask the question, " what three items do you find most important to survival", to someone trained in wilderness survival, and you will hear the following:

1: knife

2) way to make fire

3: container for water, preferably fireproof.

Of the three, the last is probably the one to get thought about the least. Everyone has their favorite "survival knives", and their preferred method of making fires, but the humble water boiler often gets overlooked. So simple, so boring, yet can be rather difficult to improvise.

I prefer to carry my water in 2 aluminum 1L bottles. I can throw them right into the fire in order to boil water, I can bang them and drop them to my hearts content, and I can dunk them in a pond or stream to fill them up, then cap them to make sure water doesn't get all over my pack.

The deciding factor in how long my hikes are isn't food, or fire, but how much water I can carry. 

I, for one, would love it if we actually had to have a fireproof container in order to melt snow and boil water (in most cases, this will be a non-issue, as most stoves have pots and pans already), and to have to find bottles in order to carry water with us.

 

[cekivi]

There's always my mess kit idea

But even then any soup can would enable you to boil water. Just in small quantities at a time.

[Dirmagnos]

20 hours ago, Patrick Carlson said:

We're certainly up to hearing suggestions without dismissing them as "idiotic," thank you! 

The use of water bottles does currently add some abstraction to the game, but not drastically so, at least in my mind. And you're right that a different mechanic would then require a re-thinking of how water is collected and used to satisfy Thirst. Say you were limited in your water boiling capacity by the size of the container you had on you--1 liter? Or perhaps you couldn't melt snow at all and would then perish that way. It's an interesting problem (although as cekivi points out, not one that would creep to the top of "most controversial"). 

Im sorry, but parasites seriously piss me off. Still. I consider it to be feature that makes no sense, nor solves underlying problem(eg, ease of wolf hunting).

While i do not oppose current water mechanic, id say its a rather good alternative to realistic way of doing things. Im sure it could be improved. Problem with water collecting in bottles is the fact that its winter. And as water freeze it expends, so its possibility to damage bottles if player is not careful(eg fills bottles to the top) and could also used as bottle degradation mechanic. On the other hand meat doesnt freeze, even if you leave it outside for a whole night at -30 degrees. So there are some points that would go across entire gameplay with such mechanics.

And yes, having water tied to containers, then game would require a lot more containers, both for making and storing. Altho in winter player could just make icicles - get a bucket, fill it, melt it, boil it, take it outside, wait for it to freeze, knock it out, put on the shelf, done. On the other hand, in the summer, player could make filters out of supplies found everywhere. Plus theres stuff like berries to keep on hydrated. Would provide completely different mechanics for water management depending on seasons. Hell, even building some sort of condensing contraption that player learns from a book. etc etc etc

But that for future, when more important things are fit and done, like removal of parasites and beefing up wolves. 8)

[miah999]

Please try to be more respectful of the developers...

The parasites are the feature that's makes you so angry?

I don't really think they're that big a deal, of course I rarely have reason to kill a wolf. I get by fine with the Parka. Plus I have four bed rolls so no need to kill a bear either.

The parasites are as easy to avoid as the wolves.

[Ruruwawa]

I like the abstraction.  Sure I'd like more entertaining content in the game, and I believe it's coming.  But not more tedium, please.  Real life is has more than enough tedium for me.  I don't need an extra helping in my games.

[Sly]

15 hours ago, Boston123 said:

I, for one, would love it if we actually had to have a fireproof container in order to melt snow and boil water (in most cases, this will be a non-issue, as most stoves have pots and pans already), and to have to find bottles in order to carry water with us.

I agree.

For short radial hikes or between save/safe houses such pot/cauldron may not be in ones backpack. But for outdoors it is a necessary thing to have some light and fireproof container to be able to melt/boil the water.

13 hours ago, cekivi said:

There's always my mess kit idea

But even then any soup can would enable you to boil water. Just in small quantities at a time.

You are definitely right. 

[vancopower]

On 5.8.2016 at 6:27 PM, Patrick Carlson said:

We're certainly up to hearing suggestions without dismissing them as "idiotic," thank you! 

The use of water bottles does currently add some abstraction to the game, but not drastically so, at least in my mind. And you're right that a different mechanic would then require a re-thinking of how water is collected and used to satisfy Thirst. Say you were limited in your water boiling capacity by the size of the container you had on you--1 liter? Or perhaps you couldn't melt snow at all and would then perish that way. It's an interesting problem (although as cekivi points out, not one that would creep to the top of "most controversial"). 

Before this topic goes off course, I would like to suggest this:  Why mess with core mechanics Patrick ? All you need to do is add water containers (Plastic bottles, jars etc.) and that's it. The melting mechanics would depend on how many containers you have

EXAMPLE: I have 1.5 lit jar and 1 lit plastic bottle  So I can melt 2.5 lit water in total. If I try to melt 3 the number will become red just like you are trying to transfer more items in storage than it could hold.

Also add another item in the forge metal canteen:

for 1 scrap metal,  1 lit canteen 

for 3 scrap metal   3 lit canteen

The point of having 2 types of canteens will be when they are empty they booth have the same weight or at least with small difference. Also they will allow the boiling of water since they are metal  which otherwise should not be possible with plastic containers like water bottles. Off course the survivor could find other containers like kettle or pan to boil the water.

There you have it. It is realistic and does not put stress on the core mechanic. I hope this would help.

[AHGoodwin]

 

9 hours ago, vancopower said:

.......... Also they will allow the boiling of water since they are metal  which otherwise should not be possible with plastic containers like water bottles. Off course the survivor could find other containers like kettle or pan to boil the water.......

It is actually completely possible to boil water in plastic bottles. ( I <3 Survivorman )

[Scyzara]

On 5.8.2016 at 6:27 PM, Patrick Carlson said:

Say you were limited in your water boiling capacity by the size of the container you had on you--1 liter? Or perhaps you couldn't melt snow at all and would then perish that way.

Well, the latter problem could be prevented quite easily by giving every character a 1l aluminium canteen as a starting item by default. I for one would find it quite plausible for a bush pilot (or anyone else on their way through the wilderness) to carry some sort of water container with them. 

And given the current number of plastic bottles standing around inside houses, players would likely have increased their water carrying capacities to several liters within the first week anyway. That being said, I'm not entirely sure if a bottle system for water would add much to the game in the long run, because at some point you would still be able to create a huge stock of preboiled water in your base(s). The only time window in which these mechanics would influence the gaming experience in a noteworthy way would thus most likely be the first few days of a new game when you still lack a greater number of containers imo.

Don't get me wrong, I very much like the idea of physical bottles from a consistency and realism point of view, but on the other hand I'm a bit undecided if these benefits would make up for the development time it would take to program these changes.

[Shyassasain]

I'd quite like it to be able to store liquid in a big ole tank or massive plastic canister, and fill up my thermos/water bottles before heading out. Rather than stacking the same water bottle model in a corner of the room. I think it's inevitable we'll get something like this anyway since they're going to update the way cooking and boiling water works. I'd also like to see pots and pans being something you'd need to boil water and cook. Of course you can just use anything that can contain what you want to cook or boil but it's not like you're going around with rocks to hunt deer just yet either is it. 

Then again I'd rather they fleshed out other areas of the game, like seasons or animals/hunting, the water system we have right now is sufficient and other things would be much more appreciated. 

[Dirmagnos]

On 8/6/2016 at 3:59 PM, miah999 said:

The parasites are the feature that's makes you so angry?

I don't really think they're that big a deal, of course I rarely have reason to kill a wolf. I get by fine with the Parka. Plus I have four bed rolls so no need to kill a bear either.

The parasites are as easy to avoid as the wolves.

I dont like parasites because they make no sense and feel like it was a feature implemented purely to compensate for ease of wolf hunting. Without addressing issue itself, eg wolves being overly easy to kill. And compared to other ailments its difficulty is completely over the top, considering that you need a small pharmacy -worth of meds to cure.

[vancopower]

16 hours ago, AHGoodwin said:

 

It is actually completely possible to boil water in plastic bottles. ( I <3 Survivorman )

I would like to see how? Remember we are talking about TLD in these conditions  not some crazy science experiment.

[vancopower]

10 hours ago, Scyzara said:

Well, the latter problem could be prevented quite easily by giving every character a 1l aluminium canteen as a starting item by default. I for one would find it quite plausible for a bush pilot (or anyone else on their way through the wilderness) to carry some sort of water container with them. 

And given the current number of plastic bottles standing around inside houses, players would likely have increased their water carrying capacities to several liters within the first week anyway. That being said, I'm not entirely sure if a bottle system for water would add much to the game in the long run, because at some point you would still be able to create a huge stock of preboiled water in your base(s). The only time window in which these mechanics would influence the gaming experience in a noteworthy way would thus most likely be the first few days of a new game when you still lack a greater number of containers imo.

Don't get me wrong, I very much like the idea of physical bottles from a consistency and realism point of view, but on the other hand I'm a bit undecided if these benefits would make up for the development time it would take to program these changes.

Wow I LOVE this idea of having 1 lit canteen for starter item. However there is a way to make plastic bottles have effect in the long run. Well as with every equipment there should be wear and tear on the plastic bottles too. So as the player progresses he/she needs to find more plastic bottles or as I mentioned in the post above craft canteens in the forge and have permanent water bottles.

[Hiemalis]

13 hours ago, Scyzara said:

The only time window in which these mechanics would influence the gaming experience in a noteworthy way would thus most likely be the first few days of a new game when you still lack a greater number of containers imo.

Don't get me wrong, I very much like the idea of physical bottles from a consistency and realism point of view, but on the other hand I'm a bit undecided if these benefits would make up for the development time it would take to program these changes.

These two sentences wrap up my position. (A) The time window for this mechanic's relevance is too small (a problem that already affects tinder); and (B) I think the devs' time could be better spent elsewhere.

I like micromanagement as much as the next guy/gal -- it's part of TLD --, and even though I find interesting the situation of dying of thirst in the wilderness because you don't have the means to boil water, I don't see how this would add in a significant way to our gameplay. Unless it was done in the right way, chances are that it'd annoy more than enrich.

[AHGoodwin]

9 hours ago, vancopower said:

I would like to see how? Remember we are talking about TLD in these conditions  not some crazy science experiment.

Les Stroud (aka Survivorman), is a Canadian wilderness survival expert. He did so on his show (a survival show, not a science experiment). Google it ("boil water plastic bottle") and you will find many videos of people trying it themselves and proving you can in fact boil water in a plastic water bottle. 

[Hiemalis]

5 hours ago, AHGoodwin said:

Les Stroud (aka Survivorman), is a Canadian wilderness survival expert. He did so on his show (a survival show, not a science experiment). Google it ("boil water plastic bottle") and you will find many videos of people trying it themselves and proving you can in fact boil water in a plastic water bottle. 

Quite interesting; had no idea that was possible. I will surely try and get to know more about him and his show.

But before anyone suggests TLD implementing it, consider that (a) boiling water in plastic bottles surely isn't common knowledge (perhaps Astrid could try it, with her science-based background?) and (b) we still don't know what year this is, so maybe Google/YouTube weren't available.

[miah999]

Survivorman is awesome, always liked him better then Bear Grylls.

As for whether or not it should be in TLD, i'd say not, but if it were included, it would need a failure chance, as you can easily melt the bottle.

As for when the game takes place, it's after 2019...

 

[Hiemalis]

I let that one get away; well spotted. (I only hope that's not the game's tentative release year...)

[vancopower]

13 hours ago, AHGoodwin said:

Les Stroud (aka Survivorman), is a Canadian wilderness survival expert. He did so on his show (a survival show, not a science experiment). Google it ("boil water plastic bottle") and you will find many videos of people trying it themselves and proving you can in fact boil water in a plastic water bottle. 

This expands the idea of having condition on plastic bottles. I suppose you could boil the water but that should reflect on the condition of the bottle lets say 30 % per litter boiled. At some point you will just need to forge metal ones similar to the mechanic with tools.  I think this will be nice addition to TLD thanks to all for contributing  

 

[continuity]

I like the magic waterbottles, i'm totally ok with some chore stuff being simplified like this.  Hell most survival games don't even simulate water/thirst.