Beachcombing Balance

[Glacia]

While the vast mayority of the players really love the new beachcombing system, it's actually very overpowered and i think it needs a bit tunning.
Beachcombing was created to offer a renewable source of several resources, and historically it works as expected, now just it's much better.
The problem is, beachcombing actually gives a big amount of resources of all kinds, at the point to letting one survive almost endless exclusively with BC loot.

Several players have suggested changing the frequency of item washing, like every 2 o 3 blizzard rather than after every single one.
Im not sure if this it's needed, but indeed it's an option.

My approach to a more balanced BC tables it's the following:

- Pilgrim/Voyager/Stalker:
* Remove Hatches, Knifes and other tools from the loot tables.
¿Why? One of the core aspects of the game, even on easier settings, is searching for tools and keeping them in good state.
¿Whats the function of the cannery or the whetstones if every blizzard spawns new tools with good condition?
* Reduce the amount of broken arrows/arrows considerably. 
* Exchange quality tools lot for scrap metal.
* Possible other changes.

- Interloper:
* Reduce frequency of carcasses considerably, for balance reasons.
* Exchange quality tools loot for scrap metal.
* Reduce massively the frequency of fish washing on the coast, again for balance reasons.

- Miscelaneous:
* Add a possible spawn of all books, not just fishing ones, albeit very rare. This also enables lopers to get all skills at level 5 

[UpUpAway95]

Disagree that Lopers should be able to get gunsmithing skills to Level 5 from just reading books that wash up on the beach.

Would prefer they go in the opposite direction... that skills books don't spawn in runs where the appropriate skills cannot be acquired through actual practice (e.g. shooting and gunsmithing skill books don't spawn in any run where rifles and revolvers are both disabled and small arms skill books don't spawn in any run where revolvers are disabled; and anglers books don't spawn in any run where fish spawns are disabled, etc.

Edited April 15, 2023 by UpUpAway95

[ajb1978]

I've acquired so many hatchets I've taken to chopping up every branch and limb I can find simply to use them up, and I'm still acquiring more than I can use.

[Serenity]

Definitely needs to be toned down a bit. Could be more than previously, but right now it's a bit ridiculous when the amount of fish, carcasses and clothing. The only thing holding you back is not having a mag lens.

Would be cool to be able to adjust the frequency in custom mode though.

[UpUpAway95]

Since beachcombing is tied to blizzards, the relationship means that the higher the blizzard frequency setting the more frequently loot washes up on the beach.  Since it is the higher difficulties that generally have the highest blizzard frequency settings, this makes the system OP on the higher difficulties while it makes beachcombing loot the scarcest on the lower difficulties. 

This imbalance can be corrected by creating a inverse relationship between blizzard frequency and beachcombing loot respawns.  That is, the more frequently blizzards are set to occur the less likely it will be that the blizzard will generate a refresh of the beachcombing loot and the less likely it will be for the higher quality loot to appear on the beach.  This will not require a separate toggle to be added in custom for beachcombing loot spawn chance, although that could also be done.

[Glacia]

29 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

this makes the system OP on the higher difficulties while it makes beachcombing loot the scarcest on the lower difficulties. 

Actually the loot on lower difficulties is so high and abundant that both game settings have problems with BC, even if blizzards are not very frequent on voyager.

About Interloper, there is nothing bad about items washing after every blizzard, the problem is the kind of items spawning. Finding cloth, leather, wood or common resources isn't problematic, the problem lies about finding an inmense amount of fish (Food + kerosene), carcasses and other very usefull items.

It's similar on lower difficulties anyways, where you can get 3 hatches on a single canoe or several arrows. Changing the % of the problematic loot washing it's more than enough to balance the system.

[UpUpAway95]

26 minutes ago, Glacia said:

Actually the loot on lower difficulties is so high and abundant that both game settings have problems with BC, even if blizzards are not very frequent on voyager.

About Interloper, there is nothing bad about items washing after every blizzard, the problem is the kind of items spawning. Finding cloth, leather, wood or common resources isn't problematic, the problem lies about finding an inmense amount of fish (Food + kerosene), carcasses and other very usefull items.

It's similar on lower difficulties anyways, where you can get 3 hatches on a single canoe or several arrows. Changing the % of the problematic loot washing it's more than enough to balance the system.

Does the general loot availability controlled by other "loot-related" settings (i.e. loose item availability, empty container chance modifier, and container item density) matter in this instance?  I don't think so... those are controlled by those other toggles and are not related to blizzard frequency in any way.  That is, if I want to reduce loot availability in general, I would use those other toggles to do so, not blizzard frequency.  I'm merely addressing the relationship between beachcombing loot and blizzard frequency considering the fact that the "higher" difficulties are the games that generally have higher blizzard frequencies.  This also does not preclude the idea that perhaps the toggles that directly control amounts of loot could be combined into one toggle that automatically reduces or increase loot amounts regardless of whether or not they are loose items or found in containers.  However, if beachcombing is still tied to blizzards, then this would be best controlled separately of such a general loot toggle... i.e. either by inversing the relationship between blizzard frequency and beachcombing refreshes or creating an "amount of beachcombing loot" toggle.

This the not preclude the idea that the BRA (baseline resources allocation) should be fixed to control only the quality of loot, not the amount of loot available.  If the BRA is fixed then the player could use it to control the quality of loot washing up on the beach... restricting it if they wish to lower quality items, along with disallowing higher quality clothing, etc. in general.

[Glacia]

BRA controls beachcombing loot.

[UpUpAway95]

6 minutes ago, Glacia said:

BRA controls beachcombing loot.

BRA should only control qualtiy of loot... across the board; not the amount of it.  That it currently does control amounts of loot as well as quality IS the problem with it that needs to be fixed.  If this is fixed, then the rest all goes a lot more smoothly... players (or difficulty settings since they use the custom templates) controlling quality and quantity of loot separately in all cases.

Edited April 18, 2023 by UpUpAway95

[Leeanda]

Most of what I find while beachcombing is not really any use on pilgrim...   But I haven't really had many blizzards yet ,but the majority of what I found were variations of wood ,and corpses/carcasses..  and some ragged clothes.  That's it so far... I was more looking forward to seeing the boats themselves rather than the loot   

Most of the blizzards I get are nowhere near a beach 😁

[UpUpAway95]

5 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

Most of what I find while beachcombing is not really any use on pilgrim...   But I haven't really had many blizzards yet ,but the majority of what I found were variations of wood ,and corpses/carcasses..  and some ragged clothes.  That's it so far... I was more looking forward to seeing the boats themselves rather than the loot   

Most of the blizzards I get are nowhere near a beach 😁

You're seeing what I'm seeing... without blizzards driving the mechanic, both the frequency of refreshes and the amount of "large loot" drops off considerably.  What I'm suggesting is to "inverse" that relationship.  However, if separate toggles are more to HL's liking, then I think that is a great option as well.  However, I'm not sure what would then happen in custom if a player turned blizzard frequency off but set a separate beachcombing loot toggle to high... Seems to me it would completely defeat any blizzard/beachcombing relationship in the lore (i.e be immersion breaking, to use a popular term)

[Leeanda]

5 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

You're seeing what I'm seeing... without blizzards driving the mechanic, both the frequency of refreshes and the amount of "large loot" drops off considerably.  What I'm suggesting is to "inverse" that relationship.  However, if separate toggles are more to HL's liking, then I think that is a great option as well.  However, I'm not sure what would then happen in custom if a player turned blizzard frequency off but set a separate beachcombing loot toggle to high... Seems to me it would completely defeat any blizzard/beachcombing relationship in the lore (i.e be immersion breaking, to use a popular term)

I wonder if the blizzards are turned off then would we definitely get nothing at all or would the old system still be there..  I doubt anyone would turn them off though or if htl considered that people would do so .

[ManicManiac]

I could agree, I think (from the sounds of it) that it might take some tuning to get it feeling right.
I haven't had a chance to see it for myself yet... but like any gear/supplies found in the game, if I feel like I'm finding too much stuff... I just won't use it. 🤭

I mean just because it's there doesn't mean we have to take/use it.

Edited April 18, 2023 by ManicManiac

[UpUpAway95]

26 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

I wonder if the blizzards are turned off then would we definitely get nothing at all or would the old system still be there..  I doubt anyone would turn them off though or if htl considered that people would do so .

As a test, I have... I saw initial beachcombing loot (all small stuff) but no refresh of loot.

[Leeanda]

13 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

As a test, I have... I saw initial beachcombing loot (all small stuff) but no refresh of loot.

Oh I see..   I suppose the likelihood of keeping blizzards off in a full run was either not thought of by htl or it wasn't possible to have both mechanics for some reason. 

[UpUpAway95]

10 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

Oh I see..   I suppose the likelihood of keeping blizzards off in a full run was either not thought of by htl or it wasn't possible to have both mechanics for some reason. 

...or maybe they wanted to give players who don't like the "blizzard" effect the ability to turn it off.  For me, frequent blizzards are another thing that can give me a headache (similar to how you react to glimmer fog).  Should anyone care whether or not the player is making the game a lot easier on themselves?  I'm all for maximum options.  For me, it's fun just flipping them around to see what sort of run I get.  Blizzard frequency is one area where HL did provide a wide range of variance in the toggle (None to Very High).  Personally, I'd like to see all the toggles/sliders work that way.

I'd also love to have the ability to change the toggle settings around mid-run... keeps a run from becoming stale or boring.

Edited April 18, 2023 by UpUpAway95

[Leeanda]

2 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

...or maybe they wanted to give players who don't like the "blizzard" effect the ability to turn it off.  For me, frequent blizzards are another thing that can give me a headache (similar to how you react to glimmer fog).  Should anyone care whether or not the player is making the game a lot easier on themselves?  I'm all for maximum options.  For me, it's fun just flipping them around to see what sort of run I get.  Blizzard frequency is one area where HL did provide a wide range of variance in the toggle (None to Very High).  Personally, I'd like to see all the toggles/sliders work that way.

I'm sorry it affects you that way... 

 Even if it does seem easier to play without them (as others see it) there are as you say plenty of options to make it as hard as you wish.  I agree it would be good if all things were made optional .   

But I still think the preset ones have their role too.   I stayed on standard pilgrim for a couple of years quite happily before changing some settings .some easier ,some harder.  The important thing is ,what are you happy playing.   

I'm not referring to things that should be in the accessibility settings though . Lighting and motion is something else ,at least from my pov.

They're all important to gameplay .

 

[Glacia]

1 hour ago, Leeanda said:

I wonder if the blizzards are turned off then would we definitely get nothing at all or would the old system still be there..  I doubt anyone would turn them off though or if htl considered that people would do so .

There are two systems related to beachcombing in the game:

- The 'Classic' system:

Random items wash in the coast every few days, not related to blizzards, you can get them without needing a blizzard. However, blizzards re-spawn all of those items (Most times). In settings with very low blizzards, this could be the mayority of the BC loot.

- The new system:

Containers, pallets and other items spawn after every blizzard.

 

 

[Leeanda]

9 minutes ago, Glacia said:

There are two systems related to beachcombing in the game:

- The 'Classic' system:

Random items wash in the coast every few days, not related to blizzards, you can get them without needing a blizzard. However, blizzards re-spawn all of those items (Most times). In settings with very low blizzards, this could be the mayority of the BC loot.

- The new system:

Containers, pallets and other items spawn after every blizzard.

 

 

That's what I was wondering... If the old one had been replaced by the new one or just added to.   I don't really do much beachcombing  and blizzards don't turn up very often on pilgrim.

[UpUpAway95]

59 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

I'm sorry it affects you that way... 

 Even if it does seem easier to play without them (as others see it) there are as you say plenty of options to make it as hard as you wish.  I agree it would be good if all things were made optional .   

But I still think the preset ones have their role too.   I stayed on standard pilgrim for a couple of years quite happily before changing some settings .some easier ,some harder.  The important thing is ,what are you happy playing.   

I'm not referring to things that should be in the accessibility settings though . Lighting and motion is something else ,at least from my pov.

They're all important to gameplay .

 

I'm not against presets (sorry if I give that impression).  I'd like to see them presented as something within the custom menu rather than before one enters the custom menu (since they are really just a preset template from the custom menu anyways).  I think, at the very least, that would cause more players to at least see what variables go into the preset they select and to just be more aware of the sort of exceptional freedom HL has built into the game through that menu.

Almost any effect that games use can affect some people with various "disabilities"/differences in vision, motor control, cognition, memory... so in a way almost everything could be an accessibility issue... and, as you indicated, they are all important to gameplay.

I do adapt, regardless - e.g. when I have blizzards on high, I play for shorter periods (as long as I can find a sheltered place enough to take a quick nap to save the game).  I use more matches than someone else would have to... maybe it means I walk off the trestle bridge more frequently that most.  So, for me, maybe that makes the game more difficult than it would for someone without my old, tired eyes... but that's OK.

Regardless of what level of challenge one likes or whatever personal challenges one has to overcome to play them... games should be fun.  For me, that's the bottom line.

[Leeanda]

4 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I'm not against presets (sorry if I give that impression).  I'd like to see them presented as something within the custom menu rather than before one enters the custom menu (since they are really just a preset template from the custom menu anyways).  I think, at the very least, that would cause more players to at least see what variables go into the preset they select and to just be more aware of the sort of exceptional freedom HL has built into the game through that menu.

Almost any effect that games use can affect some people with various "disabilities"/differences in vision, motor control, cognition, memory... so in a way almost everything could be an accessibility issue... and, as you indicated, they are all important to gameplay.

I do adapt, regardless - e.g. when I have blizzards on high, I play for shorter periods (as long as I can find a sheltered place enough to take a quick nap to save the game).  I use more matches than someone else would have to... maybe it means I walk off the trestle bridge more frequently that most.  So, for me, maybe that makes the game more difficult than it would for someone without my old, tired eyes... but that's OK.

Regardless of what level of challenge one likes or whatever personal challenges one has to overcome to play them... games should be fun.  For me, that's the bottom line.

No worries, you didn't give that impression . At least not to me anyway., 

I agree .   What's the point if you're not enjoying it..   

[Glacia]

Im gonna polish a bit my explanation of why beachcombing should be balanced a bit, not because of my experience playing the system but for the general game mechanics and the philosophy of TLD.

Beachcombing was introduced to provide the player a semi-reliable source of otherwise non-renewable resources, and of course the fun experience of 'treasure hunt' on coastal areas. For years, the system works as intended, rewarding most essential resources for very long term like saplings and cloth/leather.

HTL expanded the system to be more fun and rewarding, rather than mostly just related to gather resources for very very late game. There is nothing wrong with this and most players actually love the new beachcombing, however the system it's very borderline about what BC it's supposed to be for the game.

¿An alternative and fun source or certain items..? Or.. a system capable of giving a player enough resources to almost survive with just BC rewards, or at least a lot of resources enough to hold a player on a region for a lot of time.

TLD it's a dynamic game, no matter if you play on Pilgrim and get and inmense amount of supplies on a town, eventually you move and look for more resources and things to do. The same goes for hardcore players rushing high loot areas and all kind of playstyles, all valid. But beachcombing it's just a 'Just wait for a blizzard and then do a small walk to get a rain of resources!'.

Hatches are so common that players are dismantling them for wood; arrows and arrows materials are also incredible common, enough to replace arrow crafting, and so on..

If we look at how certain mechanics were designed to encourage players to have a dynamic playstyle (Cabin fever, well feed, etc), it's hard to understand why BC it's so powerfull right now, it even goes against a lot of core concepts of the game like looking for your own items and crafting things.

The system it's incredible, just needs a bit of tunning to make it balanced. This is my opinion anyways, and a lot of players may see the system ok even if it's overpowered.

 

[conanjaguar]

On 4/15/2023 at 6:32 PM, UpUpAway95 said:

Disagree that Lopers should be able to get gunsmithing skills to Level 5 from just reading books that wash up on the beach.

I don't think books that wash up on the beach should be usable unless they were in a watertight container when they washed up… it doesn’t seem right to be reading every word of a book you fished out of the drink just minutes ago.

[Admin]

Thank you for the ongoing conversation around Beachcombing. While we can't guarantee changes, we will continue to monitor feedback and we appreciate your thoughtful suggestions.