suggestion Firestarting overhaul

[Guest jeffpeng]

3 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

When you're starting fire at 50% chance you're expected to lose 2 matches and 2 pieces of tinder on average. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

A point I made is that you only ever need one match anyways if you proxy with a torch. Nobody likes it as it is cumbersome, but everyone who figures it out does it every time. So, if anything it would add to clarity instead of making things more obscure. As to tinder ..... we've already established that tinder is mostly abundant. You won't hurt balance by making it more abundant than it already is, and instead having the option to use more if you need a quicker fire.

3 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

How would players even know what they're getting?

By displaying the expected time as "from x to y minutes" and then have them wait.

3 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

I can hardly imagine the system you're proposing being as intuitive. And even then, what do you mean by "75% of what you want"?

That was mostly in reference of repairing things. With fire you'd get 100% all the time, but the time it takes would increase or decrease depending on resources you use and afford.

3 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

Most af the players pay no attention to the time it would take to start a fire (it's not even shown to them). 

That would have to change of course.

3 hours ago, Ghurcb said:

PS: Sorry, if I'm overly critical here. This is a great concept, I just don't think it can get a good implementation.

No worries. I'm one of these old folks that can discuss a topic, even controversially so, without being offended by disagreeing with them. (A quality society severely lacks, and it does so to its detriment.) And I very much disagree on there being no good implementation, obviously. 😉

Addendum: if one is worried that having a 100% chance of success upsets balance, as I admittedly would be, changing it so a fire only emits warmth after it has been successfully established not only fixes that, but also further incentivizes using quality materials, like more tinder or accellerants.

Edited December 13, 2021 by jeffpeng

[Guest jeffpeng]

About the lens..... I'm not really sure if that's a healthy game play mechanic for the reasons @ajb1978put forth. It incentivizes a sort of resourceless min/maxing play style that suggests you should wait for sunny weathers. If at all in the game, it should have a really low chance or, if my proposed changes were applied, long time to start a fire. A late game achievable, renewable way to start fires would alleviate the "concern" of running out of matches much better.

Also: I'm aware that whatever you, I or anyone else cooks up will never make it into the game. It's simply much too late in its life cycle to change a core mechanic this drastically.

On a side note: Ah. Another one of those poor souls believing in the Island of Stability. 😜

[Ghurcb]

1 hour ago, jeffpeng said:

Also: I'm aware that whatever you, I or anyone else cooks up will never make it into the game. It's simply much too late in its life cycle to change a core mechanic this drastically.

Well, they did change the cooking mechanic quite drastically, so maybe... Probably... Hopefully?..

It could be a mod, though

[Guest jeffpeng]

1 hour ago, Ghurcb said:

It could be a mod, though

Let's see how that turns out. If the API is decent enough to facilitate such things - I'm up for it. As well as a few other changes 😅

[Kranium]

9 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

@ajb1978

Also: I'm aware that whatever you, I or anyone else cooks up will never make it into the game. It's simply much too late in its life cycle to change a core mechanic this drastically.

I love seeing suggestions/ideas posted here, because I hope they will be considered for TLD2. 😄

[UpUpAway95]

I like that tinder is no longer needed after Level 3 since I like to have the weight capacity available for something else.  Sure, it isn't very heavy; but I still prefer to use the space for other things.  If I want to bother with tinder for RP purposes, I can just make a "house rule" to use it regardless of my fire starting level.

I would like the option to burn it because I don't like leaving cattail heads lying about on every pond in my world.  I'd rather just burn them and be done with them.  If they think of a crafting reason to keep them, then great; but there would still probably be excess that I would like the OPTION to burn.

The chance of success is really not much of a concern at any level, since one can just commit/learn to light a torch first and then make as many attempts for as long as it takes to light a fire while still only consuming one match.  Tinder can be a pain though, since each attempt uses up the tinder.  Running out and having to make tinder while keeping an eye on the time your torch will remain lit before you have to use it to light another torch instead can also be a PITA.

Edited December 14, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[Ghurcb]

8 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I like that tinder is no longer needed after Level 3 since I like to have the weight capacity available for something else.  Sure, it isn't very heavy; but I still prefer to use the space for other things.  If I want to bother with tinder for RP purposes, I can just make a "house rule" to use it regardless of my fire starting level.

I would like the option to burn it because I don't like leaving cattail heads lying about on every pond in my world.  I'd rather just burn them and be done with them.  If they think of a crafting reason to keep them, then great; but there would still probably be excess that I would like the OPTION to burn.

The chance of success is really not much of a concern at any level, since one can just commit/learn to light a torch first and then make as many attempts for as long as it takes to light a fire while still only consuming one match.  Tinder can be a pain though, since each attempt uses up the tinder.  Running out and having to make tinder while keeping an eye on the time your torch will remain lit before you have to use it to light another torch instead can also be a PITA.

I think, Hinterland should remove this exploit with a torch. Attempting to start a fire with a torch should extinguish it. Yes, it's not realistic and there is no believable excuse for this. But the game would only benefit from removing it.

[UpUpAway95]

14 minutes ago, Ghurcb said:

I think, Hinterland should remove this exploit with a torch. Attempting to start a fire with a torch should extinguish it. Yes, it's not realistic and there is no believable excuse for this. But the game would only benefit from removing it.

Starting a fire with a torch does not extinguish it in real life.  In fact, starting a fire with accelerant using a torch or even a match can cause a flare up that burns the person lighting it.  Interloper players, who often walk through areas carrying lit torches to ward off the cold and wolves, would definitely not benefit if they had to stop, extinguish their torch, and then attempt to light a new fire with a match (with a low chance of success and requiring tinder each time) while facing down a pack of T-wolves.

To get rid of the "exploit," all they would have to do is give lighting torches a less than 100% chance of success.

Edited December 14, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[Ghurcb]

1 minute ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Starting a fire with a torch does not extinguish it in real life.  In fact, starting a fire with accelerant using a torch or even a match can cause a flare up that burns the person lighting it.  Interloper players, who often walk through areas carrying lit torches to ward off the cold and wolves, would definitely not benefit if they had to stop, extinguish their torch, and then attempt to light a new fire with a match (with a low chance of success and requiring tinder each time) while facing down a pack of T-wolves.

I know it's not how things work in the real life, but that's not the point. If you can retry starting a fire over and over again, then what's the point of using a better fuel or accelerant?

As to the interloper players... It's the hardest difficulty setting, so never having enough matches is a major part of interloper experience.

[Stone]

No no. You're all wrong. Sorry 

Whats needed is a fire starting mini game whenever you start a fire. This cuts to a close up of your tiny flame on your first but of fuel/kindling and your hands providing shelter. You can move your hands in and out to provide wind shelter for the flame and you can click to blow or add kindling. You nurse the fire till strong. Add too much or too little kindling, blow to much too soon or fail to block wind and the fire dies. This way the player developers their skill at this mini-game plus the conditions and resources on hand effect success.

I am joking. Surely.

[UpUpAway95]

On 12/14/2021 at 11:27 AM, Ghurcb said:

I know it's not how things work in the real life, but that's not the point. If you can retry starting a fire over and over again, then what's the point of using a better fuel or accelerant?

As to the interloper players... It's the hardest difficulty setting, so never having enough matches is a major part of interloper experience.

The point of using the better fuels is to get a higher temperature to override the cold (which is not applicable on pilgrim and voyager, but is applicable on stalker and interloper).  Why I use accelerants right now is because, when I have them in my inventory, they start the fire quicker and give me, at Level 3, a 100% chance of success.  Lighting the torch first takes more time unless I'm already carrying a lit torch for walking in the cold.  Finding accelerants is rare and I like to keep lantern fuel to use in my lantern (if I'm fortunate enough to have found one).

In order to start a run at Firestarting 3 (because I hate managing tinder and I like starting with a decent chance of success for starting my fires), I forfeit another feat, leaving me with only one other feat to use in interloper.  It's a significant sacrifice to get that little "perk" that I earned by playing the game.  Running out of matches later in the run is not a concern for me... but preserving the few matches I have at the start of run when I my clothing is entirely inadequate and I find that I have to start a lot of fires just to stay warm is a concern.

Edited December 15, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[Ghurcb]

On 12/16/2021 at 2:01 AM, UpUpAway95 said:

The point of using the better fuels is to get a higher temperature to override the cold (which is not applicable on pilgrim and voyager, but is applicable on stalker and interloper).  Why I use accelerants right now is because, when I have them in my inventory, they start the fire quicker and give me, at Level 3, a 100% chance of success.  Lighting the torch first takes more time unless I'm already carrying a lit torch for walking in the cold.  Finding accelerants is rare and I like to keep lantern fuel to use in my lantern (if I'm fortunate enough to have found one).

In order to start a run at Firestarting 3 (because I hate managing tinder and I like starting with a decent chance of success for starting my fires), I forfeit another feat, leaving me with only one other feat to use in interloper.  It's a significant sacrifice to get that little "perk" that I earned by playing the game.  Running out of matches later in the run is not a concern for me... but preserving the few matches I have at the start of run when I my clothing is entirely inadequate and I find that I have to start a lot of fires just to stay warm is a concern.

What do you mean "managing tinder"? There's nothing to manage, really. You just carry the amount you need, making more when you're out. Honestly, what you wrote here just yells "optimising fun out of the game" (no offence).

[Laika Ivanova]

A possible fire starting/ fire rework in my eyes could be the possibility of letting the player arrange different types of fuels in a certain way on the way to make the fire last longer. Mass of fire should increase the temperature it gives, in addition to that tinder should be able to be just chugged into an active fire to increase the heat for a short amount of time. 

This is just a general idea about the whole thing

[I_eat_only_wolf_meat]

3 hours ago, Laika Ivanova said:

tinder should be able to be just chugged into an active fire to increase the heat for a short amount of time.

This is a good idea.  There have been a few times where I had no fuel for a fire and I was slowly dying, all the while looking around at stacks of tinder, birch saplings, cardboard boxes, and newspapers.

Edited December 31, 2021 by I_eat_only_wolf_meat

[Ghurcb]

On 1/1/2022 at 12:37 AM, I_eat_only_wolf_meat said:

This is a good idea.  There have been a few times where I had no fuel for a fire and I was slowly dying, all the while looking around at stacks of tinder, birch saplings, cardboard boxes, and newspapers.

Ehh... I don't think that blurring the line between fuel and tinder is a good idea. They are two different things serving two different purposes. I think this idea, that tinder should be used as a fuel, comes from the fact that right now it's quite useless. So being able to get rid of it while also receiving some bonus seems like the best idea.

I mean, realistically chugging a kilo of paper into a fire would prolong its life by a couple of minutes at best. A single newsprint would burn in a matter of seconds.

Saplings, on the other hand, should be burnable (but only once they are dried).

[Pablo_Loko]

The idea is cool. I don't see how it can affect the overall balance of the game. If this does not work, as an option, I can suggest introducing a crafting scheme from cattail heads and sleeping bag fabric into the game.

[Ghurcb]

On 4/6/2022 at 11:46 PM, Pablo_Loko said:

The idea is cool. I don't see how it can affect the overall balance of the game. If this does not work, as an option, I can suggest introducing a crafting scheme from cattail heads and sleeping bag fabric into the game.

Sorry, but... What do those two have to do with firestarting? I don't get it.

[Pablo_Loko]

Last time I just wanted to support you and raise this topic so that there would be more views. But at the last moment there was an idea that in this topic there was often a question about the impossibility of using tinder from cattail. This is off topic, of course, but I decided to share it...

[Ghurcb]

4 hours ago, Pablo_Loko said:

Last time I just wanted to support you and raise this topic so that there would be more views. But at the last moment there was an idea that in this topic there was often a question about the impossibility of using tinder from cattail. This is off topic, of course, but I decided to share it...

Oh, really? Thanks for your support!

[Ghurcb]

Here's another fire-related suggestion. 

There should be an option to extinguish the fire. We can already do that by taking torches out of it, but it's pretty weird and immersion breaking. 

It would be way better to have an actual "extinguish" button. 

[Ghurcb]

On 12/10/2021 at 12:21 PM, Ghurcb said:

What if upon increasing your level you would get new unique abilities like using coal as a starting fuel or making your own matches or not having to use matches (that would require more time)?

On the topic of unique abilities. Maybe, once you reach a certain firestarting level, your campfires become more wind-resistant? Not fully, of course. It shouldn't be possible to start a fire amidst a blizzard.

Here's how perfect firestarting levelling would look, in my opinion.

Level 1 - No base firestarting chance. Tinder can add +15% to +45%, depending on which one you're using.
Level 2 - Firestarting bonus +10%.
Level 3 - Tinder becomes optional. Firestarting bonus is now +15%.
Level 4 - More wind-resistant campfires. Firestarting bonus +20%.
Level 5 - Coal can be used when starting a fire. Recipe for bow drill unlocked (crafted with guts and maple saplings, can be used ~15 times, as (in)effective as cardboard matches). Firestarting bonus +25%

With this change, your firestarting chance won't rise as high, as it does now. But it would only benefit the gameplay, as items like tinder, books and accelerant won't become obsolete once you level up high enough. And in my opinion, getting new skills is WAY more interesting then simply seeing numbers go up.

What do you think? Would it be better, than the levelling The Long Dark has now?

Edited May 30, 2022 by Ghurcb

[Ghurcb]

I just took a closer look at the DLC store page, and like, WOW! NO WAY!

IT'S FIRESTARTING OVERHAUL TIME! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSS!!!!!

Edited October 22, 2022 by Ghurcb

[Guest jeffpeng]

On 10/22/2022 at 12:57 PM, Ghurcb said:

I just took a closer look at the DLC store page, and like, WOW! NO WAY!

IT'S FIRESTARTING OVERHAUL TIME! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSS!!!!!

WHell, it's about time.

[Sgt Socks]

Be interesting to see how they have chosen to overhaul it.

[conanjaguar]

On 10/22/2022 at 6:57 AM, Ghurcb said:

I just took a closer look at the DLC store page, and like, WOW! NO WAY!

IT'S FIRESTARTING OVERHAUL TIME! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSS!!!!!

Wait… acorns? But all the trees on Great Bear are ones like Cedar and Fir, and they have cones, not acorns…