Revolver (and Hunting Rifle) mechanic and UI changes

[SpanishMoss]

Revolver Mechanic Change

One change that should be made to the revolver is a way for it to jam. Similar to the jamming of a Hunting Rifle. Of course this jam cant happen when cycling bullets due to how they are cycled (although maybe it could). It should instead occur when trying to fire, when you press the trigger, the hammer will not have enough force to cause the bullet to fire. This means that if you have say 4 bullets loaded, and the first bullet doesn't fire correctly, you can still fire the next 3 bullets, but you have to cycle through blank slots to get to the loaded shot. With this change, the UI would need to be updated as well. (this "jam" would only occur with low condition revolvers, similar to the rifle)

Gun UI Changes

The revolver bullet count UI should instead of being a line of bullets, be a back view of the revolver cylinder, with holes for empty rounds, and white spots for loaded rounds. At the top of the cylinder, there can be an icon to indicate that hole as being the currently loaded shot (if there is one). A similar change can be made to the Rifle UI. Instead of a line of bullets, the bullets can be stacked vertically, and closer together, with an icon at the top to indicate the loaded shell. This UI could be taken further, using different colors or symbols to indicate which bullet is hand made (and therefore more likely to misfire), and which bullet is currently jammed, or need to be otherwise fixed. (see below for how to fix revolver "jam")

Fixing a Revolver Jam

To fix a revolver jam, you would have 2 options, say you had 1 bullet loaded and it "jammed", the revolver would just cycle to the next empty hole. To put the bullet back in place you could either reload, manually rotating the cylinder to align with your bullet, or you could dry-fire (firing without ammo), thus cycling through all the empty holes before you arrive at the loaded hole. This is why you would need the updated UI, so you know which hole is at the top, so you can cycle bullets properly without firing by accident. If you choose to reload, the animation would be simple, either put the revolver out a view and have the bullet aligned properly (similar to the standard reload animation for removing any spent shots), or rotate the cylinder in one motion to the correct hole, then procced with the normal reload animation.

Note: I am not a gun expert, and have a lay-man's knowledge on guns, the jam I have described may not be possible, but with my limited knowledge, I don't see why not. If it isn't possible, please explain why, and (if there is a way) describe how a revolver could actually "jam" (hopefully with a similar effect to my idea, ie not firing a bullet, but cycling).

 

[Butterbisket]

I like your idea but one of the biggest issues is that revolvers are popular because they don't jam. I know guys who specifically conceal carry revolvers because it eliminates having to deal with a jam if they are in a sticky situation. This is because of the rotating cylinder. In a semi auto pistol there are three ways it can jam, failure to fire, failure to feed,  and failure to eject. Failure to happens either because the bullet is a dud or more likely there is some sort of gunk causing resistance to the pin which is making it from hitting the round properly to fire. Failure to feed happens because the gun is dirty thus the extractor is getting resistance which causes it to fail or the round is bad. Lastly is failure to eject which is caused by, again, a dirty gun which is causing resistance to the slide so it does not go all the way back and catches a casing while it is trying to exit or it can be caused by the shooter absorbing the force of the ignited gunpowder through their wrists. That is why if you are firing a pistol you need to lock your wrists so you don't absorb any force and the gun cycles properly. The shooter absorbing the force is the number 1 reason semi auto pistols jam.

If we take a look at a revolver it does not have a slide like a semi auto pistol. Thus its cant fail to eject, and while you could argue that it could fail to feed if the cylinder does not rotate, it is a very simple mechanism compared to the slide of a semi auto and a failure to feed is very unlikely. So all we are really left to get a jam on a revolver is a failure to fire. I would say it could jam if the gun was in very poor condition or there is a chance that crafted ammo are duds. 

Sorry for the lecture but I just wanted to explain that revolvers are popular as side arms and conceded carries because it takes a jam right out of the equation. They are simple reliable firearms that if maintained are guaranteed to fire a bullet when you pull the trigger.

[deathbydanish]

On 2/17/2021 at 10:20 AM, Butterbisket said:

I like your idea but one of the biggest issues is that revolvers are popular because they don't jam. I know guys who specifically conceal carry revolvers because it eliminates having to deal with a jam if they are in a sticky situation. This is because of the rotating cylinder. In a semi auto pistol there are three ways it can jam, failure to fire, failure to feed,  and failure to eject. Failure to happens either because the bullet is a dud or more likely there is some sort of gunk causing resistance to the pin which is making it from hitting the round properly to fire. Failure to feed happens because the gun is dirty thus the extractor is getting resistance which causes it to fail or the round is bad. Lastly is failure to eject which is caused by, again, a dirty gun which is causing resistance to the slide so it does not go all the way back and catches a casing while it is trying to exit or it can be caused by the shooter absorbing the force of the ignited gunpowder through their wrists. That is why if you are firing a pistol you need to lock your wrists so you don't absorb any force and the gun cycles properly. The shooter absorbing the force is the number 1 reason semi auto pistols jam.

If we take a look at a revolver it does not have a slide like a semi auto pistol. Thus its cant fail to eject, and while you could argue that it could fail to feed if the cylinder does not rotate, it is a very simple mechanism compared to the slide of a semi auto and a failure to feed is very unlikely. So all we are really left to get a jam on a revolver is a failure to fire. I would say it could jam if the gun was in very poor condition or there is a chance that crafted ammo are duds. 

Sorry for the lecture but I just wanted to explain that revolvers are popular as side arms and conceded carries because it takes a jam right out of the equation. They are simple reliable firearms that if maintained are guaranteed to fire a bullet when you pull the trigger.

I think the original poster describes something that is more of an ammunition problem as opposed to a mechanical one. I think I've discussed in the past ammunition that's found outside not having the best condition and possibly having issues like this. I've been getting into revolvers myself and even the most poorly made revolvers (looking at Taurus) are not likely to have timing issues with their action, that is unless you have literally been using it as a hammer or club. 😛

I haven't shot any surplus ammo through any of my revolvers before, but I've shot surplus ammo from my old bolt actions, I've had some with hard or possibly defective primers that required a second time through the rifle to finally fire. Then I've had some where it did ignite the primer but there was a perceptible lag before the round actually fired. Not sure if that's likely to happen with revolver ammo, but I can say it happened with old surplus Yugoslavian rifle ammo, the case that I got was supposed to be a spam can that would've been perfectly sealed but the seller did tell me that the seal was broken and the ammo had been exposed to the elements, so I just accept the risk since this particular ammo was not super common or easy to get where I live.

The revolver in the game I like to think of as a Franken revolver since its not an exact 1:1 copy of any real life version, but in my mind I like to think that it was probably something that was initially Colt or Smith & Wesson quality when it was bought new, but over time and with use (and lack of maintenance) it may no longer have the rock solid action that it did when it was new. So even if you restore its condition back to 100% I think it could be feasible to incorporate some problems endemic to older designs of revolvers that while they are good condition wise, they may not have 100% perfect operation, i.e. action goes out of time.

[Mroz4k]

Not a gun expert. But I found the comment about the revolvers not being able to jam dubious at best. It is, in the end, a machine, and no machine is perfect, all are subject to malfunctions of some sort. The research online suggested, that while not very common (revolvers are quite simple in design, that does mean they are not prone to malfunctions) they can jam as well. Thing is - most of these "jams" actually prevent the cylinder from rotating, for example when one of the rounds is not properly fitted into a chamber properly for some reason. If the cylinder does not rotate, the gun cant fire, hence jam. The author of that page also suggests that these jams are, in fact, usually more difficult to fix then with other firearms. So while revolvers are prone to jam less frequently, it appears they can, and doing so would probably mean the whole revolver woudl need maintenance. Which would be, in game, consistent with low condition of a weapon. 

[odizzido]

As someone who does know an okay amount about guns when that person said revolvers don't jam they probably mean that cartridges cannot jam up like they do in belt/magazine fed weapons. Unless a revolver is pretty much falling apart/breaking it's going to fire if the ammo is good.

edit-----

Also if the ammo is no good you can simply rotate to the next cartridge anyways with a revolver. With a magazine fed pistol you would need to clear that round before you could attempt to fire again.

Edited February 22, 2021 by odizzido

[Stinky socks]

Gun noob here and I like how simplified gun mechanics are. This isn't a shooting simulator me thinks. Maybe I'll try to craft some poor ammo and let my gun degrade heavily to see how bad it gets, but having unreliable gun in the game would be a major inconvenience when you're in a pinch. This is number one reason why I keep it always cleaned up in the game, so I don't have to worry about jams when I'm already having dificulty tracking an attacking animal.

[deathbydanish]

5 hours ago, Stinky socks said:

Gun noob here and I like how simplified gun mechanics are. This isn't a shooting simulator me thinks. Maybe I'll try to craft some poor ammo and let my gun degrade heavily to see how bad it gets, but having unreliable gun in the game would be a major inconvenience when you're in a pinch. This is number one reason why I keep it always cleaned up in the game, so I don't have to worry about jams when I'm already having dificulty tracking an attacking animal.

I feel like the game is meant to do that though, there's a duality in everything you do in the game. For me it seems like one way to approach this game is as a series of risks, if you fail to manage your risks properly you're character will suffer some kind of negative consequence.

13 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Not a gun expert. But I found the comment about the revolvers not being able to jam dubious at best. It is, in the end, a machine, and no machine is perfect, all are subject to malfunctions of some sort. The research online suggested, that while not very common (revolvers are quite simple in design, that does mean they are not prone to malfunctions) they can jam as well. Thing is - most of these "jams" actually prevent the cylinder from rotating, for example when one of the rounds is not properly fitted into a chamber properly for some reason. If the cylinder does not rotate, the gun cant fire, hence jam. The author of that page also suggests that these jams are, in fact, usually more difficult to fix then with other firearms. So while revolvers are prone to jam less frequently, it appears they can, and doing so would probably mean the whole revolver woudl need maintenance. Which would be, in game, consistent with low condition of a weapon. 

In terms of problems I've experienced personally with revolvers, I had made the mistake of using cheap Russian steel cased ammo in a cheap Taurus revolver. A combination of the revolver's cylinder not having each chamber uniformly sized and the steel cased ammo expanding and being difficult to extract caused it fire, but left the remaining case stuck in the undersized chamber. After that round when I tried to fire again I noticed that the steel case was protruding from the chamber and that stopped the cylinder rotation. When I tried to use the extractor to remove all the rounds at once from cylinder all but the one undersized chamber extracted. I had to use a cleaning rod from my Mosin get it out, but in the process I broke the crane screw which caused the cylinder and crane assembly to fall out when I tried to reload it.

[Stoutlander]

50 minutes ago, deathbydanish said:

In terms of problems I've experienced personally with revolvers, I had made the mistake of using cheap Russian steel cased ammo in a cheap Taurus revolver. A combination of the revolver's cylinder not having each chamber uniformly sized and the steel cased ammo expanding and being difficult to extract caused it fire, but left the remaining case stuck in the undersized chamber. After that round when I tried to fire again I noticed that the steel case was protruding from the chamber and that stopped the cylinder rotation. When I tried to use the extractor to remove all the rounds at once from cylinder all but the one undersized chamber extracted. I had to use a cleaning rod from my Mosin get it out, but in the process I broke the crane screw which caused the cylinder and crane assembly to fall out when I tried to reload it.

I've shot different revovlers on and off since the late 1970's and the only problem I ever had was similar to yours; bad ammo. The one in the game looks to be modeled after what the RCMP carried and were made by Smith and Wesson. They were extremely reliable, especially in harsh conditions. 

It's a survival game. If your life depends on a firearm, you take care of it as IRL. In game revolvers won't jam as the RCMP's didn't, or do 99.99 % of all others. It is my opinion that the developers were proper with how the revolver functions.

Reloaded ammo might be the only leg the OP has to stand on.

[deathbydanish]

20 hours ago, Stoutlander said:

I've shot different revovlers on and off since the late 1970's and the only problem I ever had was similar to yours; bad ammo. The one in the game looks to be modeled after what the RCMP carried and were made by Smith and Wesson. They were extremely reliable, especially in harsh conditions. 

It's a survival game. If your life depends on a firearm, you take care of it as IRL. In game revolvers won't jam as the RCMP's didn't, or do 99.99 % of all others. It is my opinion that the developers were proper with how the revolver functions.

Reloaded ammo might be the only leg the OP has to stand on.

Yeah if the revolver's origin is likely that it was a law enforcement officer's sidearm, I can see that its probably not going to see as much heavy use as like a competition shooter. It's kind of like comparing the tire wear on an F1 race car after a few laps vs. your personal vehicle after a week of regular highway driving, one is definitely going to need to be changed. I've purchased some police trade in firearms before and they are usually in very nice condition, the S&W Model 64 and 65 I got clean up real nice and since they both most likely were only shot during an annual re qualification, they've likely got a relatively low round count compared to their age.

[xAnAngelOfDeathx]

In my opinion the sight on the revolver and the rifle needs to be made twice as narrow as it is now, way too thick.

[Stinky socks]

Look at the bright side, if you aim at a bear from 10 feet away and you don't see the bear, you are aiming right at him!

On a serious note, yes that is quite annoying.

[Patchwork Grizzly]

Speaking of gun mechanics, anyone notice that when you load an empty rifle, there's already a bulliet at the bottom of the mag on the spring? Minor BS but ticks me off a tad. Anyone else?

[xAnAngelOfDeathx]

On 3/4/2021 at 12:25 PM, Patchwork Grizzly said:

Speaking of gun mechanics, anyone notice that when you load an empty rifle, there's already a bulliet at the bottom of the mag on the spring? Minor BS but ticks me off a tad. Anyone else?

I actually just noticed yesterday that sometimes when I load the rifle it spits out an unfired bullet! I wonder how many bullets I've lost not noticing that before!

[Stinky socks]

Ouch. Yes it is always a good practice to pick up casings after firing unless in a big hurry! That way you don't miss a bullet in case she misfired. 

Best practice though is to keep rifle and gun in top shape by always cleaning it(or not firing it). That way you never lose bullets!

[mfuegemann]

For me it is hard to always remember to pick up the rifle shells after firing. Luckily the casings remain where they are even weeks later - even after blizzards.