Feats

[MLKDY]

I think if we have available spaces then we should be able to add feats in our playthrough. I started a game with one feat, and at day 127 I had 6 other feats unlocked. Three more available spaces but can't use them. It can also possibly be frustrating for new players if they can't add feats 20% of the way through there first big game. 

[mfuegemann]

Good point. This is the more true, as experienced players may intentionally not use availiable feats for their next run to add/keep some difficulty.
Or maybe the feats could be run-based and reset if You start a new one.

[UpUpAway95]

I would like to see the players have the ability to change any aspect of a run during a run (for all modes, but if not that then at least for custom runs).  In addition to the described issue of new players not being able to use feats as they unlock despite having feat slots available, new players often start runs at an overly timid level of difficulty; and when mid-game boredom sets in, would prefer to increase the difficulty overall (if using a standard mode) or in certain ways (if using a custom mode) rather than restart the run from the beginning.  I also think Hinterlands should allow manual saves in all modes... and I would prefer it also if the feat system was just scrapped and replaced with a traditional XP Level-Up system that causes the players to start fresh in all skill areas with each new run.

IMO, people put too much emphasis on the idea that people would exclusively use such flexibility in order to make their runs easier or that it would somehow destroy people's ability to compare themselves to other players (which is already effectively a fallicy in that some players have already found ways on some systems to back up save files (defeating the permadeath aspect of the game) anyways.

[Lexilogo]

Yeah, I agree. Being able to swap feats has issues, but simply adding them in when you started your run with empty slots is perfectly reasonable. It'd help provide an immediate satisfaction to players when they unlock new Feats.

[ManicManiac]

I've given this thread time to breath... so I will weigh in on it now.

I think that part of the fundamental fabric of the game is that our choices have consequences, and that we have to try to live with those consequences for as long as we can.  I think this even applies to when we first make our choices on how we setup the run we want; including the feats we've earned and the feats we use.

I think it would undermine the point of having to live with the consequences of our choices/actions if we can just: change any aspect of a run, during a run.

When our run starts, we make a series of choices... and I think we should have to "live" with those choices.  I think it's better to start a new run if we want to change the parameters of the run.

I think that being able to "swap out" or "add new feats" in the middle of a run would just feel kind of cheap and cheaty to me.

Edited February 1, 2021 by ManicManiac

[UpUpAway95]

2 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

I've given this thread time to breath... so I will weigh in on it now.

I think that part of the fundamental fabric of the game is that our choices have consequences, and that we have to try to live with those consequences for as long as we can.  I think this even applies to when we first make our choices on how we setup the run we want; including the feats we've earned and the feats we use.

I think it would undermine the point of having to live with the consequences of our choices/actions if we can just: change any aspect of a run, during a run.

When our run starts, we make a series of choices... and I think we should have to "live" with those choices.  I think it's better to start a new run if we want to change the parameters of the run.

I think that being able to "swap out" or "add new feats" in the middle of a run would just feel kind of cheap and cheaty to me.

I'm just going to point out that new players don't "choose" to start runs with feat slots open, they don't have the feats yet to fill those slots.

 

[ManicManiac]

7 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I'm just going to point out that new players don't "choose" to start runs with feat slots open, they don't have the feats yet to fill those slots.

...if they haven't earned any feats, then I'd say it's reasonable they wouldn't be able to use those feats on that particular run.

I'd say my point still stands.

Edited February 1, 2021 by ManicManiac
Initially misread... corrected for context.

[UpUpAway95]

3 minutes ago, ManicManiac said:

...but they do still choose from what feats they've earned, and if they haven't yet earned a certain feat... then I'd say it's reasonable they wouldn't be able to use that feat on that particular run.

I'd say my point still stands.

New player have no feats to choose from, period.

Also, philosophically... denying people the right to choose, for example, whether or not to change their settings IS NOT teaching them to "live with the consequences of a choice they've made... because you're denying them that choice to make in the first place.  IF instead, you give them the opportunity to change their settings... and they decide not to, then they've made a choice and will likely be quite willing to "live with" the consequences of that choice.  I choose to play Fallout 4 permadeath... and I have no trouble deleting my own save file after I die in the game.  The game does not have to deny me the choice in order for me to experience what permadeath means in a game.

Edited February 1, 2021 by UpUpAway95

[ManicManiac]

@UpUpAway95

I misread initially... I corrected the context of my last response, but my opinion remains the same.
 

2 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

I think that being able to "swap out" or "add new feats" in the middle of a run would just feel kind of cheap and cheaty to me.

 

[ManicManiac]

7 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Also, philosophically... denying people the right to choose

I'd say there is no "right to chose" in this particular circumstance... since the player hadn't yet earned any feats.
I think that's an odd idea... why would a player have the "right" to choose a buff if they hadn't unlocked it yet?   

Edited February 1, 2021 by ManicManiac

[ManicManiac]

12 minutes ago, UpUpAway95 said:

because you're denying them that choice to make in the first place.

To be clear, I'm not denying anyone anything
I just happen to agree with how Hinterland has implemented how a player sets up a new run.

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by ManicManiac

[Old Hermit]

The current system, although favors replayability (next save probably will get better), also can favor some abandonments (i got that feat, so im gonna restart fresh) mostly in screwed saves.

There are many kinds of players, and some of them will prefer this or that feature. So, i think it could be resolved by a checkbox in Options menu. Everybody happy.

[UpUpAway95]

16 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

To be clear, I'm not denying anyone anything
I just happen to agree with how Hinterland has implemented how a player sets up a new run.

 

I'm not implying that you personally are denying the player... Hinterland is denying the new player the options they grant longer-time players.  They are making the choices here... not you and not the new players.  The choice from feat options cannot exist unless the options exist from which to choose/select one (or more, in the case of feats, 2 - 5).  New players don't have feats to choose from, period.  They have no choices in that regard.  Their only choice is "play the game" or "don't play the game." - which is a different set of choices. 

They don't actively or implicitly choose from the feat options until after they earn feats.  When they earn one feat - they have a choice at that point, but it is still not a choice of selecting from different feat options.  Their choice then is 1) start a new run to see what that feat is all about or 2) continue with their current run and forget,  for the time being, discovering that feat's impact on the game.  It's only after they earn more feats than their selected game mode has slots that they start choosing which feats to use or not to use in their run.

IMO, that's not encouraging replayability, it's hampering it... deferring it over a long period of time and encouraging the premature abandonment of earlier runs rather than encouraging the player to experience those runs right through until the character "fades into the long dark."... particularly when the player has also selected a difficulty level that is too easy for them.  I don't see any harm in Hinterland allowing players to choose to add features into an old run or to adjust the difficulty of that run... it's a single-player game... the options given the player, the better.

I understand that you generally agree with Hinterland's choices... and I disagree with some of their choices... and, to use your phrase, that's OK.

[UpUpAway95]

9 hours ago, Old Hermit said:

The current system, although favors replayability (next save probably will get better), also can favor some abandonments (i got that feat, so im gonna restart fresh) mostly in screwed saves.

There are many kinds of players, and some of them will prefer this or that feature. So, i think it could be resolved by a checkbox in Options menu. Everybody happy.

I don't see how granting the player the tools to make their current run better rather than resigning themselves to the vague hope that the next save probably will get better favors replayability.  Replayability will occur when their current character "fades into the long dark" and they can set up a new run  knowing how the feats after the game and knowing how to set it up better rather than just hoping that they'll like whatever new feat they're now "sciencing."   The second part - that it favors some abandonments, I agree with and I agree with the idea of it being an option only so that players who feel they want to continue to "lock" themselves into a run in all respects can continue to do so and players who want to be able change things mid-run can also choose to do so.

The pessimist in me, however, feels that making "everybody happy" is largely an impossible task. 😄

[ManicManiac]

3 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I understand that you generally agree with Hinterland's choices... and I disagree with some of their choices...

Fair enough

Still though, it was nice discussing it with you.

Edited February 2, 2021 by ManicManiac

[AdamvR]

I do love the setup of the game that forces you to make decisions, as they have consequences. Such "take it seriously" attitude gives a very different atmosphere compared to many other games, where you can just load back an older save, if things do not go as planned. Those are also enjoyable of course, but I particularly like this aspect of TLD.

Having said that, I do not think, that leaving a feat spot empty, and then filling it later is cheating in any way. Even adds one more decision point, whether I fill it in in the beginning, or keep it for later. [Switching them during the game: I'm not so sure, but since you are still confined to having only 2-3-4 of them, it might still be okay. or not.]

Others might disagree, but i personally find the current setup kinda odd: as it encourages you to start a game, just to get a feat, and then abandon it, instead of allowing to strive, within the same game, for some achievement - and then enjoy it. Multiple achievements also appear to follow that pattern, that you'd better start a special save just to get them fall and then forget about it.

For the same reason I actually decided to skip on the one, where you had to collect maple syrup. It was not possible to do it in one consecutive game, but instead it enforced that you start multiple games with the single goal to finding a couple of bottles, and making sure you do not delete them, until the achievement is fallen. Honestly, i found that ... kinda "embarassing" - especially in contradiction how great and well-thought the rest of the game is.
Curious how others felt about it..?

Edited February 2, 2021 by AdamvR

[Old Hermit]

9 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

I don't see how granting the player the tools to make their current run better rather than resigning themselves to the vague hope that the next save probably will get better favors replayability.  Replayability will occur when their current character "fades into the long dark" and they can set up a new run  knowing how the feats after the game and knowing how to set it up better rather than just hoping that they'll like whatever new feat they're now "sciencing."   The second part - that it favors some abandonments, I agree with and I agree with the idea of it being an option only so that players who feel they want to continue to "lock" themselves into a run in all respects can continue to do so and players who want to be able change things mid-run can also choose to do so.

The pessimist in me, however, feels that making "everybody happy" is largely an impossible task. 😄

That is what i'm talking about. I just forgot to include the word "hope" on text ^^

"I hope my new try will be better, because now i have this new whatever 10% bonus. But there are several feats to achieve! OMG i must play this game again and againto be fairly good"