discussion EP 3 has huge Immersion Problems

[Hausmusik]

EP 3 has huge Immersion Problems and it totally ruins the experience

One of the most important things in TlD is the believable worldbuilding and that actions have consequences. One never has the feeling, that stupid decisions will not ruin your run. And yes i know, that this is storymode, but that doens't mean that we have to dumb the core values of the window. 

What do i mean exactly:

1. Timberwolf: This is just a gamy mechanic with no real porpose other than to stress out the player. You can not avoid it and the solution is just plain stupid. Just shoot at them until a hud element drops to zero. For a game which does not want a overbearing UI, this is a strange solution to a made up problem. 

 

2. Story problems: Astrid is a badass, i get it. I don't have a problem with a strong woman in a videogame. But what she does is straight up incredible and to say it bluntly, stupid.

She investigates a planecrash in the hills to look for survivors and find the ID's of victims. So she strolls up the mountain and finds the crashside. She than finds some dead bodies and loot which she can use. Than suddenly she hears a weak moaning and she runs to it to help a survivor. Joke is on you, you have to collect the ID's and the insuline before you can interact with a dying woman. That right there alone would kill any immersion you got until that point. Even worse if you have to search for a hidden body for half an hour, while this woman is dying alone without any treatment. But it does not end here at all, it gets even worse.

So you treat her injuries as good as you can and troubleshoot what you can do. Bring this woman to a protected place where you can see for her needs and get her on her feets again. So you pick her up and find the perfect place, a cave with fireplace not far from the crashside. You go in and just toss her to the ground like  an annoying piece of shit (what she really is). You start a fire to get her bodytemp up and keep troubleshooting. At this point i was excited, i thought i had to leave her there to get stuff, medicine and food, for her survival. But little did i know, i read the questlog! The game reallx wants you, a woman with probably 60 kg, to pick up your bag, 30 kg, and this woman, probs 45-50 kg, and bring to the community centre. Are you shitting me? Not even the "Mountain" could do that, let alone a woman with 60 kg. To makes things even worse, you have to keep her warm. The funny thing is, that at the planechrash there is enough stuff to equip a footballteam. But you don't use that and you just let her freeze to death while you are sweating in your cloths and under the 80-100 kg on your back.

 

After that experience i could not bear the thought of playing EP 3 further, and that makes me sad. I love the game in general, but this storyline does not fit into the world Hinterland created so carefully. Pls discuss the point with me and let me know if i am wrong or just stupid.

                      

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Hausmusik

[MarrowStone]

@Hausmusik, Timberwolf morale meter can be disabled in the menu now. Idk if it works for story mode. 

The part where you had to find all the crash site victim's IDs first really broke my immersion too, it really should've been optional but it builds up to show that there are a few other surviors you have to carry out from various points of the valley as well. I think they should remove those other survivors from the story and just focus on making the plane crash one a more difficult and longer ordeal. 

The part where you carry the first survivor was pretty exciting! But the challenge and suspension of disbelief would've been much better if carrying her drained your stamina or exhaustion meter, making your trip back a much longer and more difficult ordeal. This isn't because I think Astrid should be weak, she's far from it. In some ways she's stronger than Will. From a character perspective I think she can do it. But she's carrying someone through deep snow and mountains with a heavy backpack on. It's okay if she needs to take breaks other than only stopping for timberwolves or cold. 

I also agree that being able to equip the other survivor with clothing would have been a nice feature since the crash site provides you with plenty to spare. I don't mind not having to give the survivor food. Just worrying about water and warmth is okay (the trip won't last more than a week hopefully anyways) but dealing with the physical ordeal of carrying someone should've taken center stage. Maybe Molly leaves you a snow shelter in a strategic position to take refuge in when you get tired.

Overall, I'm fine with the first survivor, it was exciting enough and I felt satisfied when I got to Thompson's crossing with her safe. But there's always room for improvement.

I was less fine with carrying a few more that didn't even add to the story much for good measure. But I suppose there's something to say about Astrid's dedication to her doctor profession (even though she's a research doctor?)

[dahemac]

The carry problem, which is absurd, could easily be solved if the game allowed you to do the first thing you would do in Gwen or Will’s situation, which is build a sledge. There is no way Astrid, or Will, could do that fireman’s carry. When I realized I would have to carry Gwen I started to think about what gear I would be willing to leave so I could manage it. But no, she weighs nothing.

I have gone winter camping. I have dragged my supplies on a toboggan in mountainous terrain. How is this not implemented in The Long Dark?

[peteloud]

On 12/20/2019 at 2:11 PM, Hausmusik said:

1. Timberwolf: This is just a gamy mechanic with no real porpose other than to stress out the player. . . . . . .  

 

I became fed up with Ep.3 after a lot of timberwolf attacks while getting the first couple of survivors down from the crash site,  so I gave up playing it.

I get the impression that TLD developers are having fun trying the beat the hard-core players, and ignoring the mass of general players.

Quite simply, the timberwolves spoiled the game.  It is no longer enjoyable, so I found another game and started playing that.  

 

[manolitode]

I agree with you that ep 3 was bland inbetween character interactions. The carrying objective was unrealistic (carrying a full grown person on your shoulders don't even slow you down noticably) but predictable and tedious. While the supporting roles never came close to the qualities of Jeremiah, in my opinion, it was great to get to know Astrid and that made it worthwhile to me. However, this was just the lettuce wasn't it? The dull lettuce between two real juicy chunks of hamburger meat and two aiolimarinated buns

[lillitys]

The only real problem in ep3 for me was that it felt really short...

But yeah, carrying people for such long distances and in such conditions (snow etc.) is a pretty amazing feat for anyone, so some changes would definitely improve the believability of the games. But instead of building a sledge, I think it would be simpler to have Astrid find a stretcher from the crashed plane. Using one to transport the survivors would still be a difficult task and thus would show Astrid's determination to help, but it would be a lot more believable.

If adding a sledge or stretcher would be too hard to do at this point, then having Astrid's stamina affected and having to take breaks would be a good idea as well. Possibly there could be a separate stamina meter for this mission, similar to the one used for mountain climbing...?

[ajb1978]

I guess I didn't think Astrid was carrying the survivor on her back.  I viewed it more like she pulls their arm across her shoulders and helps them stand, and they're at least partially supporting their own weight.  Because yeah trying to do a fireman carry for several miles would be exhausting even if you're in the best of shape.  Astrid looks like she  exercises, but is definitely not a bodybuilder.  That's one of those details that I think is glossed over, because doing something like forcing the player to take frequent breaks doesn't add enjoyment to the game, it just makes it take longer.  "More realistic" is not automatically "better".  Similar to how with food, we only have to worry about calories.  We don't have to micromanage our vitamins or anything, because that would not be fun.  Just more work.

[Guest jeffpeng]

On 12/28/2019 at 1:22 AM, dahemac said:

How is this not implemented in The Long Dark?

Because it's actually hard to implement, especially with the constraints put on the game with Unity.

On 12/30/2019 at 7:39 PM, manolitodeespana said:

The dull lettuce between two real juicy chunks of hamburger meat and two aiolimarinated buns

So in EP4 we get to raid an abandoned fast food restaurant - confirmed.

5 hours ago, ajb1978 said:

"More realistic" is not automatically "better".  Similar to how with food, we only have to worry about calories.  We don't have to micromanage our vitamins or anything, because that would not be fun.  Just more work.

I've played "Green Hell" for a while. It's fun, while not as polished or replayable as The Long Dark. It doesn't have vitamins, but you actually have to manage all three types of basic nutrition - carbohydrate, proteins and fats - in addition to hydration to stay on you feet. If you fail to acquire one you get a 25% fatigue penalty, which stacks up to 100% (== ded) if you fail at all four. I found that really interesting at first. By the time I was done with the (rather short, but fairly good) story I was terribly annoyed with it. For instance you can swim in bananas, but unless you find some nuts and some animal to eat .... you're still screwed as you pass out from fatigue four times a day. Same goes for the "realistic" hygine system in that game - a feature often times requested for The Long Dark. It's just tedious. So no - more realistic isn't automatically more better.

[MarrowStone]

6 hours ago, ajb1978 said:

That's one of those details that I think is glossed over, because doing something like forcing the player to take frequent breaks doesn't add enjoyment to the game, it just makes it take longer.  "More realistic" is not automatically "better"

I agree, but if we didn't have to do it for four survivors it'd take less time in the long run. 

[manolitode]

10 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

in EP4 we get to raid an abandoned fast food restaurant - confirmed.

Or get to hunt some bulls.