About modes

[Guest Marcurios]

I'm beginning to question the modes..
I started playing The Long Dark a month ago, bought it years earlier, just never came round to starting to play.
I love the game, but i like a challenge, so i started out on Wintermute, second difficulty, was a nice run, Bear was a bit annoying though.
Then i wanted to try the survival modes, first tried Voyageur, died in 3 days, then tried Pilgrim, was too easy after ten days i got bored cause i was drowning in loot.
So i started Voyageur again, second time i got at 70 days and got bored again, became too easy again, then went on too Stalker,
Stalker was kinda challenging again the first 20 days, kept being entertaining for another 50 days, then became boring again, now on 110 days, again became too easy.
I'm killing 4 wolves with the bow each time they spawn, have like 40 wolf pelts and 100 rabbit pelts and a few moose an bear pelts..
So i thought, let's try interloper, let's see what that is, well, that is something entirely different, it's kinda unplayable, i mean i died within a day
each time i tried, tried 8 times so far, i only got a means to make fire in 1 try, caught some rabbits, made some water, slept a bit till it was day again,
went out to get to the next location, out of nowhere a wolf jumps me and i'm dead again..

Why is there such an incredible difference between these "experiences" ?
I mean, i got nothing on loot on Interloper, maybe two cans of soda and 1 flare, in 8 tries that took a day, been at 20 locations and only got two cans and 1 flare i mean do you solely depend on luck that you find a hatchet and matches in Interloper ? Ofcourse i kept the fire going with torches that i took out of that 1 fire, but is that how you guys play it, pure luck to find a torch and then keep the fire going indefinitely, or are there matches anywhere ?

EDIT: oh, wrong section of forum i guess i posted this in, excusez moi..
Anyway, i got my answer, just started the 9th try and i got a jacket and matches, started 7 out of 9 times in DP by the way, is that the main insertion point for Interloper ?
I do think this needs to be adressed, that it is not luck based if you get a more or less survivable start..
Maybe rub sticks together to make fire, with a very low probability of succes, and a high calorie usage, that you can atleast try to make fire if you're lucky enough to find a can of food anywhere.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Marcurios

[ajb1978]

Interloper is all about extreme resource management, and getting it into your head that everything is a resource.  Even health.  (Especially health, early on.)  Another part about Interloper is that loot spawns are partially random, but also predictable.  So over time you learn that if a bedroll spawns here, then a mag lens will spawn there, etc.  That meta-knowledge is fairly critical to being able to turn any start into a winner.

There are some general bits of advice though, that can help.  Stay mobile, grab cattails every chance you get, don't be afraid to take some condition loss from freezing if it means you can get indoors and sleep in a bed.  Also remember that rifles, revolvers, hatchets and knives do not appear in Interloper.  You have to forge your own equipment at a forge, and bow/arrow is your only real weapon.  So early on you want to stay mobile and find a hacksaw and hammer, in order to have a chance long-term.  

For me, Interloper is unenjoyable.  I've played it, I can do it, I just don't like it.  I play this game to relax, not add stress.  I prefer dialing up my own experience in Custom mode, or playing the Challenge modes and setting side objectives.  Like speedrunning, or in the case of Nomad, using that as an alternative to Survivor mode where I can play as long as I want, then end on a high note simply by completing the remaining objectives.

[Guest Marcurios]

well, it's also about being killed by wolves obviously..died again by wolf..
i got a good thing going, got fire running this time, good jacket, didn't starve and freeze the first day, figured i gotta get out of DP as fast as i could cause there was nothing there, killed a few rabbits, ate them, disposed of their carcasses to not be smelly, i wish i could have saved them for guts but didn't want a wolf to jump me, again a wolf out of nowhere on my back, killed me rightaway..
 

but what you say is kinda lame, sorry to say so, if you know the distribution schemes of loot, then you start to survive..
that's a serious flaw in the Interloper mode then, that's not how i want to be able to survive.

so i'm going to take your approach to it, since it's predictable in the end, it's not my thing..
i need it to be randomized, and have proper survival mechanics to make it worth playing, then i wouldn't mind dying a lot.
but to die over and over and in the end know where stuff is at, and only then starting to survive, no..sorry, not my thing..
it's probably the same in the other modes,  that distribution of loot is predictable, then only storymode is interesting for me,
and i played that, so i guess it's time to move on to another game then.

shame they didn't randomize it, and make better mechanics, cause that would do wonders for replayability.

i might try some custom games then, see if that strikes my fancy, but i'm kinda dissapointed by this news..

they should have looked to Fallout, they have a much better system to spawn loot.
I read the dev that he didn't made these lists before and will probably do it different in another game.
i'm just curious why he didn't look at existing ways in rpg games, cause they have done it already for years..
 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Marcurios

[UpUpAway95]

I hate to keep saying it, but playing on a custom setting is the alternative that is designed into the game.  Each setting tweaks a different aspect and each mode is just really a different collection of those settings so you can sample what aspects of the game play you want to be harder and what other ones you want to be easier.  They still allow the player to gain achievements while playing on custom settings, so there should not be the sort of stigma attached to it as there is in other games.  They want you to feel free to adjust your experience to suit yourself.

Stalker is about being attacked by wolves.  Interloper is about lacking resources.  Voyageur is combines fewer wolf attacks and ample resources to allow you to more freely wander the map.  Pilgrim is about essentially eliminating animal attacks.  You can go into custom as then select any of these difficulties to see the template that comprises each one... and then tweak what you want to adjust it to suit you specifically.  You can even adjust certain setting to be "harsher" than on interloper and stalker (e.g. playing "deadman," which removes health regen is a popular custom game setting.  They don't just scale like a FPS game does.

I would love it if they allowed the player to change settings around in a custom game after the file starts, but even as it is, it's not that heartbreaking to leave a file if it no longer interests you and start another with different settings.  The ability to tweak the settings keeps the game interesting since you have an innumerable number of different permutations to work with.

The only things that require a standard mode are the feats... which just grind up over time and can only be applied to another new game anyways.  In effect, they are just another way to customize your game.  They offer some minor perks, but nothing that can't either be earned during a playthrough (like being able to start a fire without tinder) or altered through a custom setting (like an extra little bit of warmth ( just lower the setting that determines whether or not the world gets colder over time to compensate).  It's the most flexible game I've ever played this way.

In addition, they are going to be adding a new animal - the timberwolf soon (possibly with the next major update), which will add a nother level of excitement to the game.  They are also going to be adding another episode to Wintermute soon.  These are major changes already in the works... why not wait to see what effect they actually have on things?

Edited August 25, 2019 by UpUpAway95

[Ice Hole]

13 hours ago, Marcurios said:

started 7 out of 9 times in DP by the way, is that the main insertion point for Interloper ?

Seems your 77% chance is following the curve.

The sandbox survival game is not random.  Maps and loot locations can easily remembered.  The repeat-ability of the game still offers many players hours of entertainment.  The key approach in my opinion is to play the game in a less hand held adventure but to be more hands on to do your own thing.  Once the survival aspect of the game became easy for me I started looking for adventure.  Most players strive to last for hundreds of days.  For myself a route to deliver newspapers and books was the thing to do.  Take my advice make up your own story and use The Long Dark as a canvas to tell it.

The game after too many hours played still offers me locations that I have not visited.

This location is in Mystery Lake and I just recently found it.  It might not seem much to you but I explore maps extensively and excel in goating to locations that are extremely difficult to reach.

 

 

[Guest Marcurios]

37 minutes ago, Ice Hole said:

Take my advice make up your own story and use The Long Dark as a canvas to tell it.

That sounds like a good strategy to enjoy Interloper mode, not to survive as long as possible, but to see if you can get somewhere you have in mind.
Thanks for that suggestion, i'll try to do that..

And yes it's true, as long as you do NOT know all the spawnpoints and connections yet, it's still a good game.
But i was kinda dissapointed to hear that one day i will know where important stuff is placed like bedroll or matches.
But for now i'm no way near there.

@UpUpAway95, you're right ofcourse, if you have the option to make it even harder then Interloper, then i have nothing to complain about essentially.
just got frustrated that the difference in difficulty is so immense, i wish i would atleast have a chance to come out of a wolf fight with 2% health, so i could crawl to a car and die in that car.., instead of wolf jumps me, 100% chance to die immediately, it just feels lame..i would rather limp away, since i had no cloth, and no bedroll and no food and only 2 liters of water, and was far from a building, so i would have died anyway, but it would ateast have felt more dramatic to bleed out in a car nearby..the sudden death is way more frustrating then the one i had from starvation in the second run, i slowly died, saw it coming, it was kinda cool..being mauled by a wolf that you don't see coming, they aren't even barking in Interloper from what i can tell so i can't even get a heartattack scare..is not so cool..

Well atleast in the end when i never get the hang of interloper, i could always customize the game.
But i want to be able to do atleast something before i die, so i'll keep trying for a while..
Even if it's for like 1 day more..

Edited August 25, 2019 by Marcurios

[UpUpAway95]

1 hour ago, Marcurios said:

That sounds like a good strategy to enjoy Interloper mode, not to survive as long as possible, but to see if you can get somewhere you have in mind.
Thanks for that suggestion, i'll try to do that..

And yes it's true, as long as you do NOT know all the spawnpoints and connections yet, it's still a good game.
But i was kinda dissapointed to hear that one day i will know where important stuff is placed like bedroll or matches.
But for now i'm no way near there.

@UpUpAway95, you're right ofcourse, if you have the option to make it even harder then Interloper, then i have nothing to complain about essentially.
just got frustrated that the difference in difficulty is so immense, i wish i would atleast have a chance to come out of a wolf fight with 2% health, so i could crawl to a car and die in that car.., instead of wolf jumps me, 100% chance to die immediately, it just feels lame..i would rather limp away, since i had no cloth, and no bedroll and no food and only 2 liters of water, and was far from a building, so i would have died anyway, but it would ateast have felt more dramatic to bleed out in a car nearby..the sudden death is way more frustrating then the one i had from starvation in the second run, i slowly died, saw it coming, it was kinda cool..being mauled by a wolf that you don't see coming, they aren't even barking in Interloper from what i can tell so i can't even get a heartattack scare..is not so cool..

Well atleast in the end when i never get the hang of interloper, i could always customize the game.
But i want to be able to do atleast something before i die, so i'll keep trying for a while..
Even if it's for like 1 day more..

I'm sure if you stick with it, you'll get better at lasting longer and longer.  I've watched some different Youtubers play and the differences in their skills and confidence between their earliest interloper runs and now is amazing.  It's remarkable how almost nonchalantly they can move about the world and how few resources they can survive on.  There are a lot of neat custom challenges out there as well... everything from being unable to wear manufactured clothing (only stuff from hides) to having to survive in a single zone or, as I mentioned previous, Deadman (which is not being able to regen health).  They share the custom codes that make up the challenge.

For myself, I probably won't ever get that good... but trying is always the most fun anyways.

[Guest Marcurios]

well i don't think trying is the most fun..in Interloper that is..
i managed to stay alive for three days now, got a hacksaw  (which i cannot use because calories), and 2 bedrolls, and a mag lens, but never good weather..
I only stayed alive cause i spawned in Forlorn Muskeg and i know the region, so i bolted to the traincar, made a fire to warm up and went directly to Mystery Lake trappers home, form there to ML lodge, been on the watchtower and hunting cabins, constantly on the verge of dying, every container i opened was empty, every..single..one..
It's just not for me Interloper, i lived on a few rabbits and some cattail stalks, constantly picking up sticks and harvesting torches from the fire to keep my fire going, then went to the Carter Dam, scared some wolves away with a fire, tangled with 1 and actually won the fight, then i started te deteriorate, franticly making fires every now and then to keep warm, then a storm hit me just near the Carter Dam, but i made it in, looked in every cabinet, nothing...nothing in there...nothing in there..nothing in there either, then made a fire in the fire barrel in Carter Dam with 10% health, ate some stalks, but was probably to tired or something, so i wanted to have a bit more wood and searched for a small crate, then i died from harvesting a crate...it became a silly excersize, absolutely not my idea of a fun game, i guess it would feel like a accomplishment if you finally succeded in making a bow, but i already know that once you have one, a wolf comes up to you one day, you shoot it in the head and then get killed anyways to fade into the long dark..

so i think you where right all along, the only way to have a hard game, but still enjoyable is to make a custom game.

But, like Ice Hole says, i did deliver the mail..
 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Marcurios

[Guest Marcurios]

i tried again, at day 4 now, getting better at avoiding wildlife alltogether except for rabbits, i eat 4 rabbits a day.
but the minute i step outside my cold meter drops to hypothermia level within a minute, it's crazy..
i literally run from place to place in Pleasant Valley, and there is no clothing whatsoever in any building.
Although i do survive, and even stay out of the red most of the time and have 75% ish percent health, the fun is gone..

Is there a way to take all Interloper settings, and just turn down the cold a bit ?
So you can actually get somewhere instead of constantly getting hypothermia in 60 seconds flat ?

i understand that it's supposed to be like that, to make sure you keep moving to find good clothes, but it kinda borders on the ridiculous side.
So i'd like to choose Interloper setting and just turn down the cold a bit.
How do i do that ?

[ajb1978]

43 minutes ago, Marcurios said:

So i'd like to choose Interloper setting and just turn down the cold a bit.
How do i do that ?

Just start a new game, click Custom, then at the top choose the Interloper template.  Then scroll down and tweak the cold to your liking.

Edit: This code is Interloper everything, with Stalker cold.  8sGM-bj8P-Kxsj-maGO-7gAA

Edited August 26, 2019 by ajb1978

[Guest Marcurios]

Thanks Bro, means a lot..

[Serenity]

You just need to adjust your strategies. Lots of weird decisions there. I have no idea why you need to make fires so often. If you need to warm up go to a bed and rest or sleep for an hour. Looting deer carcasses is a good excuse to make a fire and boil some water in the process. Another great early water source is toilet water. Less so in ML (there is some in the dam), but a good deal in PV and CH.

Interloper doesn't railroad you into one play style, but you can't do the same as on lower difficulties

Quote

 i eat 4 rabbits a day

You only really need to eat before sleeping. Together with the cold you'll lose a lot of condition that way. But condition management is essential on Interloper. If you have herbal tea use some early on to regain more during sleep. Later on it's not hard to be at 70-100% condition all the time

With the protection value from crafting clothing, you can survive attacks even on Interloper. Early game it's almost certain death. But avoiding wolves is part of the game. Learning where wolves are and how to escape them (break line of sight or drop a decoy). The heavy hammer also has chance to get wolves off your back before they kill you. Even early game: 

 

 

Another thing to do: get the distress pistol out of the Ravine. That gives you a few get out of jail free cards when you encounter wolves. And there are some more shells on the TWM summit.

There are still lots of resources on Interloper. Less so in containers, but plenty of tools and especially plants. You just have to move in a wider area to collect them. Then you still end up with several tool boxes, hacksaws, hammers, lanterns and bedrolls. You definitely notice that the higher tier clothing isn't available, but aside from that you really don't need too much. ML alone has a little over a hundred cat tails and you need just around 5 to survive a day.  Each deer carcass has a steak and gives you a hide for crafting. It's only the start that's difficult. Once you're established Interloper can be relaxing too.

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Serenity

[Guest Marcurios]

you don't understand, i had 1 flare, if i don't keep making fires and pull torches out to keep it going i'll die in a single day from the cold.
it happened before in the first 5 runs.

So i make 1 bigass fire, get the torches out, and light torch by torch, gathering stick for a new bigass fire incase i find a deer carcass
or need to fry some bunnies and make water or some warming beverage or food if possible and needed.

So looting a deer carcass needs a fire too.
i can't harvest a deer hide cause then i'm dead, since i have no fire 90% of the time in Interloper.
So the nice juicy steak can't be harvested cause i got no hacksaw and my hands can't harvest a more then 50% frozen carcass.

i can warm up in a bed allright, but then a storm hits and i can't go outside cause i freeze to death in 3 minutes.

i know i only need to eat before sleeping.
by eating 4 rabbits a day i ment eat them before i go to bed.

i did survive a wolf attack with a prybar, didn't you read, but that was one out of 4.
Cause yeah, you don't find any clothing, i tried 12 runs so far, even in my current run i visited like 20 interiors and i only found a toque.
i just don't find anything that can help me survive the first days, so i have to run from place to place to stay alive...barely..
sure i found a hammer, and a hacksaw, and a canopener, but no mag lens, or proper clothes, or good food for that matter, or tea..did find some coffee.
oh and whoopie, i found matches twice and two bedrolls once !!

so it's more a luck based mode then a fair mode (or do you know the map from the back of your hand), and i kinda dislike luck in games, whenever you have to rely on luck, it get's old fast. My current run is 5 days now, i had the luck to spawn in Pleasant Valley, i know that terrain very well cause i started all my earlier survival games there, so i don't get lost anywhere on that map, but i'm not aqainted with DP, so i die there, and die...and die...and die..and so on.. the riken has nothing, the whale yard has nothing etc etc..so it's all luck, often you spawn in at night, so you get in a interior without fire, and it's so fucking dark you can't even find a bed, let me tell you one thing, if you happen to stumble into a pitch black room IRL, you'll start to see things in about ten minutes. so in that regard the game could use some realism to make you able to survive more logically, instead of based on luck

only strategy that seems to work so far is to run to the next house, run to the next, run to the next till my condition gets to low, grabbing cattails and catch a few bunnies along the way (if i got lucky and found matches), then get some condition up (easier when i found some coffee) sleep, and start running again to the next building.
i managed to stay alive for 5 days now doing a speed run to houses.
that's not the way i want to play the game.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Marcurios

[Serenity]

Quote

so it's more a luck based mode then a fair mode (or do you know the map from the back of your hand)

It's both. Some loot is completely random. Some is fixed or semi-fixed (like tools and some of the matches). Much of the clothing is random, but I know that the farm house in PV has a good chance for a ski jacket and that Signal Hill can also have some good clothing. For things like hammers, bedrolls or hacksaws can you also learn that certain locations have a good chance for one.

Quote

you don't understand, i had 1 flare, if i don't keep making fires and pull torches out to keep it going i'll die in a single day from the cold

Using the flare in FM is a must. But otherwise I indeed don't get it. It's just not necessary. At this stage I mostly make fires for water or cooking. I very rarely need to make fires just to warm up in the very early game. About the only exception are extremely long trips and then it has to be worth it. Or spending the first night in the mountaineering hut on TWM. I've made a fire for warmth in the fishing hut when I traveled between Rural Crossroads in PV and Signal Hill, but that's about it. Finding matches is a must but even early on you don't need many if you know what to do. 

Sure, the game has marginal locations where you need a fire to survive. What I'm saying that most of these can be avoided in the early days. In almost all cases there is plenty of survivable shelter around. Later on when you visit more wilderness areas away from civilization you're better equipped and prepared.

Quote

So looting a deer carcass needs a fire too.

Usually yes. If you're just after a hide you can harvest it with a hacksaw in the cold and take the condition loss. Can also be worth it.

Most importantly it lets you do several things: harvest a deer for hides/gut and meat. And get some water with it. You don't waste matches that way. The hides are very important because you want the deer skin gear as quickly as possible.

Quote

i can warm up in a bed allright, but then a storm hits and i can't go outside cause i freeze to death in 3 minutes.

So find some things to do. Read a book. Harvest curtains. Break down some furniture or boxes. Repair your clothing. Yeah, you will sometimes get stuck indoors with little to do. But it's more of an annoyance than a threat.

 

Quote

Cause yeah, you don't find any clothing, i tried 12 runs so far, even in my current run i visited like 20 interiors and i only found a toque.

Not true. The high tier clothing doesn't exist, but there is underwear, wool ear wraps, thin wool sweaters, ski jackets, combat pants, combat boots for example. It gets colder soon, but it's actually pretty warm at the beginning and just few degrees of warmth bonus are a huge help.  What really makes a difference early game is crafting the bunny gear. It won't last long but it's possible to be completely warm outside in ML a few days in the late afternoon.

 

Quote

the whale yard has nothing

There can be several packs of matches and a bedroll there. A DP start is very challenging, but that's mostly because of the very long and dangerous trip to CH. The Riken is also very cold and the lighthouse usually isn't warm either at the start. My favorite starts are TWM or PV.

Quote

only strategy that seems to work so far is to run to the next house, run to the next, run to the next till my condition gets to low, grabbing cattails and catch a few bunnies along the way (if i got lucky and found matches), then get some condition up (easier when i found some coffee) sleep, and start running again to the next building.

Early on you need to stay on the move and keep looting, yes. But once you've cleared out some locations you can settle down for crafting and be pretty comfortable. The phase where you run around frantically only needs to last for about a week. I often like to start in TWM, get two packs of matches and a tool there, get to PV for some more good loot (really only the farm house, barn, maybe rural crossroads, and Signal Hill). Then go to either CH or ML for the crafting phase (up to a wolf skin coat). After then back to TWM for a summit run around day 50-60.

Once you can hunt deer it's also not too hard to keep up the well fed bonus, though you need to hunt pretty often.

Interloper is difficult very early on, yes. But a common complaint is that it is too easy once you crafted your stuff and have accumulated lots of resources.

Maybe watch some YouTube playthroughs to see how other people spend the first week.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Serenity

[Ice Hole]

@Marcurios 

I feel your pain.  Had very similar issues way back when I had less than 40 hours.  Best advice is to step back maybe watch a stream of another interloper player.  Learning maps is priority number one for interlopers.  Alternatively go for cartography and play voyageur but pretend its interloper, only looting interloper items (by staying lightweight it is better for traveling).

[Guest Marcurios]

2 hours ago, Serenity said:

Not true.

true, i found a canadian toque in Interloper, so you might say it's not true, but it is..
it was also one of the two pieces of cloting i found in 3 days, constantly building hopping, i found a hoodie too.

2 hours ago, Ice Hole said:

Alternatively go for cartography and play voyageur but pretend its interloper, only looting interloper items (by staying lightweight it is better for traveling).

point is, i played Stalker and thought it was relatively easy after voyageur became boring.
But then i went on to Interloper cause on day 110 Stalker became boring too, i constantly shot and killed all the wolves in Stalker, had like 40 pelts and could fill a pool with guts.
But Interloper is in no way comparable to one of the other modes, it's like 100x more difficult, and that's what i find non satisfactory.
That you need to play a certain way to make it, not even a logical way from survival perspective if you compare it to survival in real life.
I know i should not compare it to real life, but it being luck based most of the time i find a bad development decision.
One should atleast be able to stay indoors for instance without getting cabin fever, or at night your eyes should adjust after 15 minutes to the dark so you can make out shapes in the dark like in real life, or just eating the rosehips should give you calories, they're filled with carbs irl, curing gut should be sped up when they're near a fire indoors, stuff like that, you can create mittens and headgear from cloth, but not a makeshift jacket, it wouldn't make very much of a difference, but it could mean that you survived for a day or two longer in a logical way, rather then just being lucky, cause you're most certainly not going to make a wolf jacket in the first 10 days, they have you for a snack pretty much 98% of the time, another thing i find really nonsensical, sure, there are less wolves, but you only need 1 to end your game rightaway.i got lucky 1 time.
and yes, i know how to avoid them, but they spawn freaking on top of you, there is no way in hell you can avoid them 100% of the time by being smart.
It should be.

in the custom settings you can set wolves to spawn far away, that is realistic, not when it magically appears 5 feet behind you all of a sudden, that happened to me 3 freaking times, i was constantly on the lookout, traveling high ground, like people suggest in tuts, but it doesn't matter, the wolf spawn inside your underpants, and you're dead.

it's just bad game design, that's what it is.
 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Marcurios

[UpUpAway95]

2 hours ago, Marcurios said:

it's just bad game design, that's what it is.
 

I disagree.  It's not run-of-mill difficulty levels where everything just scales up, and that why there is such a difference in how you have to think about survival between stalker and interloper and it is what enables the sort of flexibility you have to create different custom games that also cause you to have to think differently about survival.  I love it.  It adds a ton of replayability to the game.  You just have to get over your conditioning of "custom = bad."

[Guest Marcurios]

you can disagree, but spawning wolves on top of you is unfair.
got nothing to do with difficulty levels as you put it.

i don't say custom is bad, i say the modes that devs configured have flaws in design.
i'm saying they need to keep thinking about what makes a game better, and adjust their built-in modes to be just as harsh, but more fair.
the option is there to spawn wolves far away, then why would you deny the player the possibility to detect them early and to device their own strategy on how to deal with them ? they simply did that cause they figured it has to be really really unforgiving and plentiful hard. and you have to die, no matter what..even if there is nothing you can do about it.. i'd say it has to be fair in the first place, then you can think about how to make it real hard so people have to think real good to survive, but if they do that well, they will survive. now it's just i survived for a week, and walking to my next destination, and oh, all of a sudden a death sentence spawned right behind me. ofcourse not in front of you cause that would look silly, no right behind you, the wolf doesn't even bark, you're in the struggle menu rightaway yelling WTF ! it literally happened three times now with me, i was on a open field, no wolf to see for a mile, and yet i got jumped in my back, now how's that for fair ?

So i play a custom game with the wolf setting to spawn far away, and whaddayaknow, i don't die from a sudden spawn anymore..
That should not be custom, that should be Interloper, and if people want crazy unfair dumb mechanics deaths, they can choose custom.

 

I might come on a little strong about this, but i can't really stand the decisions devs make, maybe because i make my own games, and in that regard, i always keep thinking in how to make it better, not easier, not more fun, but better, as in, if you use the brain you have, you will be able to aquire your victory. i do like the game, but i don't like the decisions made in different "experiences" first three are too easy, last one is unfair.
So it seems custom is the only way to make the game work, and i kinda dislike that.
The mechains to do it right are all there in the custom settings, yet they chose weird "experience" modes imo.
but it probably is just me, a few of you guys constantly disagree with me about it, so i guess to each his own..

Edited August 26, 2019 by Marcurios

[ajb1978]

12 minutes ago, Marcurios said:

That should not be custom, that should be Interloper, and if people want crazy unfair dumb mechanics deaths, they can choose custom.

Agree to disagree. The point of Interloper is to be a brutal, punishing experience.   It sounds to me like you aren't looking for that.   I wouldn't call this "poor game design", and not trying to be rude or anything but if you don't like it...don't play it.   I don't enjoy Interloper either....so I usually play Custom.  That's what it's there for.   But if I do elect to choose "interloper" then I go into it eyes open, fully expecting that every blind corner could lead to a wolfy death.  Know how I deal with that?  I crouch and toss a rock.   It'll bring wolves out of hiding.

This is HL refers to them as "Experience modes" and not "difficulty levels".  Yes, Interloper is more difficult than say Stalker, but it's a completely different experience at a fundamental level.  And that experience is supposed to be that you're always inches away from death.  I mean there's a reason why surviving even a single day on Interloper is an Achievement unto itself.  It is, in fact, an impressive achievement when you consider how stacked against you the deck is.

[ThePancakeLady]

1 hour ago, Marcurios said:

I might come on a little strong about this, but i can't really stand the decisions devs make, maybe because i make my own games...

If I may ask (not trying to be rude, just curious here...), what games have you developed, and where can I pick up a copy, to see what they are like? 
Honestly curious, because I keep seeing some people saying they are also game devs, but never saying what games they have made or taken part in making, so people can have an idea of what game engines you have experience or proficiency in, and whether that experience is applicable for comparison to a complex Unity 3D engine game like this one.

[ajb1978]

1 hour ago, ThePancakeLady said:

If I may ask (not trying to be rude, just curious here...), what games have you developed, and where can I pick up a copy, to see what they are like?

 Honestly, I'd missed that claim, and I echo TPL's question.  What games? I'm also curious.

[UpUpAway95]

4 hours ago, Marcurios said:

you can disagree, but spawning wolves on top of you is unfair.
got nothing to do with difficulty levels as you put it.

i don't say custom is bad, i say the modes that devs configured have flaws in design.
i'm saying they need to keep thinking about what makes a game better, and adjust their built-in modes to be just as harsh, but more fair.
the option is there to spawn wolves far away, then why would you deny the player the possibility to detect them early and to device their own strategy on how to deal with them ? they simply did that cause they figured it has to be really really unforgiving and plentiful hard. and you have to die, no matter what..even if there is nothing you can do about it.. i'd say it has to be fair in the first place, then you can think about how to make it real hard so people have to think real good to survive, but if they do that well, they will survive. now it's just i survived for a week, and walking to my next destination, and oh, all of a sudden a death sentence spawned right behind me. ofcourse not in front of you cause that would look silly, no right behind you, the wolf doesn't even bark, you're in the struggle menu rightaway yelling WTF ! it literally happened three times now with me, i was on a open field, no wolf to see for a mile, and yet i got jumped in my back, now how's that for fair ?

So i play a custom game with the wolf setting to spawn far away, and whaddayaknow, i don't die from a sudden spawn anymore..
That should not be custom, that should be Interloper, and if people want crazy unfair dumb mechanics deaths, they can choose custom.

 

I might come on a little strong about this, but i can't really stand the decisions devs make, maybe because i make my own games, and in that regard, i always keep thinking in how to make it better, not easier, not more fun, but better, as in, if you use the brain you have, you will be able to aquire your victory. i do like the game, but i don't like the decisions made in different "experiences" first three are too easy, last one is unfair.
So it seems custom is the only way to make the game work, and i kinda dislike that.
The mechains to do it right are all there in the custom settings, yet they chose weird "experience" modes imo.
but it probably is just me, a few of you guys constantly disagree with me about it, so i guess to each his own..

In my  opinion, they should do away with the standard "difficulty' modes altogether and have only the custom menu with a few "suggested templates" put up in no particular order so that people don't mentally assign "difficulty" to them.  I'd actually like to see difficulty modes eliminated from most games, along with leaderboards.  From what I've seen online, standard difficutly levels tend to only generate boasting and bickering.  I'm thankful I"m not a game developer.  Being just a player, I'm free to just like what I like... and I like what they've done with this game regardless of whether or not you think it's poor design.

Edited August 27, 2019 by UpUpAway95

[Guest Marcurios]

11 hours ago, ThePancakeLady said:

If I may ask (not trying to be rude, just curious here...), what games have you developed, and where can I pick up a copy, to see what they are like? 

Go and play Fallout New California (A.K.A. project Brazil), i worked on that with a bunch of friends.
https://www.moddb.com/mods/falloutprojectbrazil
Also working on Fallout The Frontier
https://www.falloutthefrontier.com/
few more examples of what i have made, but just like 2% of my entire work, otherwise i have to spam the thread with links;
http://www.mgenyc.com/tag/marcurios/
https://www.moddb.com/members/marcurios/mods

And before you go and say...ohhh, but they are not games but mods, then no, they are games, both bigger then the entire game New Vegas.
i wrote scripts for that regarding survival mechanics in The Frontier, yes, it had cold weather and protection from freezing with clothes and fire even before The Long Dark existed, even though it has'nt been released yet, we have some money from donations, but not a kickstarter amount of money, so developing takes time, not to mention to rig up all those vehicles Fallout lacks vanilla that you can fly and ride, even in space..
And i merged all mods into the main master for Frontier, and made the weather (scripted and made entirely new 360 degrees cloud system), and a bunch of terrain textures.

i also made assets for Unity games that are used in a few games, but i don't actually keep track in the exact amount, but there are quite a few..

And yes, The Frontier will still be a year away from releasing, but if you ever played Fallout NV you will be stunned from what The Frontier will add in terms of mechanics and new driveables and flying contraptions and rideable animals and more.

On top of that i made hundreds of scripted mods and weather mods and texture and model mods for Fallout 3, Fallout NV, Skyrim, And Fallout 4, Doom 3, STALKER SOC etc..

I also helped out with a bunch of big selling assets on the Unity store like GAIA and more..

Let's just say i did enough programming and scripting mechanics to be able to determine what works and what doesn't from a fair gameplay perspective.
Even if you could not find any clothes and would freeze to death every single time, that would be more fair then a wolf spawn on top of the player.
It's just a big nono in the game industry.

@UpUpAway95 i agree with what you said, suggested game modes would make more sense, then you could just disagree with their suggestion.
As it is now they say with Voyageur it's the way the game is ment to be played, i don't think such a statement is correct.
The way it is ment to be played is the way someone wants to play it, so in that regard, custom is the way to play it.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Marcurios

[UpUpAway95]

2 hours ago, Marcurios said:

Go and play Fallout New California (A.K.A. project Brazil), i worked on that with a bunch of friends.
https://www.moddb.com/mods/falloutprojectbrazil
Also working on Fallout The Frontier
https://www.falloutthefrontier.com/
few more examples of what i have made, but just like 2% of my entire work, otherwise i have to spam the thread with links;
http://www.mgenyc.com/tag/marcurios/
https://www.moddb.com/members/marcurios/mods

And before you go and say...ohhh, but they are not games but mods, then no, they are games, both bigger then the entire game New Vegas.
i wrote scripts for that regarding survival mechanics in The Frontier, yes, it had cold weather and protection from freezing with clothes and fire even before The Long Dark existed, even though it has'nt been released yet, we have some money from donations, but not a kickstarter amount of money, so developing takes time, not to mention to rig up all those vehicles Fallout lacks vanilla that you can fly and ride, even in space..
And i merged all mods into the main master for Frontier, and made the weather (scripted and made entirely new 360 degrees cloud system), and a bunch of terrain textures.

i also made assets for Unity games that are used in a few games, but i don't actually keep track in the exact amount, but there are quite a few..

And yes, The Frontier will still be a year away from releasing, but if you ever played Fallout NV you will be stunned from what The Frontier will add in terms of mechanics and new driveables and flying contraptions and rideable animals and more.

On top of that i made hundreds of scripted mods and weather mods and texture and model mods for Fallout 3, Fallout NV, Skyrim, And Fallout 4, Doom 3, STALKER SOC etc..

I also helped out with a bunch of big selling assets on the Unity store like GAIA and more..

Let's just say i did enough programming and scripting mechanics to be able to determine what works and what doesn't from a fair gameplay perspective.
Even if you could not find any clothes and would freeze to death every single time, that would be more fair then a wolf spawn on top of the player.
It's just a big nono in the game industry.

@UpUpAway95 i agree with what you said, suggested game modes would make more sense, then you could just disagree with their suggestion.
As it is now they say with Voyageur it's the way the game is ment to be played, i don't think such a statement is correct.
The way it is ment to be played is the way someone wants to play it, so in that regard, custom is the way to play it.

So now you're, in effect, complaining over a few words in the description of one of the game modes they currently offer, which seems pretty inconsequential in the overall design of things to me.  Is that what has prevented you so far from playing a custom game and instead repeatedly raising issues with the "design" of the all the various experience modes... wanting the devs, in effect, to customize those standard modes to your individual liking?

ETA:  So, I checked the ingame descriptions out.  There is actually nothing in the description of Voyageur that suggests it is in the way the game "is meant to be played."  It reads:  "For new or experienced players looking for a balance between Exploration and Survival."  Pilgrim's description indicates that it is "For new or experienced players most interested in pensive Exploration."  Stalker indicates that it is "For veteran players looking for a punishingly challenging Survival experience." and Interloper indicates "For expert players looking for the ultimate wilderness Survival challenge."  As a result, I don't think there is anything amiss in the descriptions of either Pilgrim or Voyageur since they are settings where the player can be successful without being at all familiar with the game or the maps.  Stalker and Interloper require that the player be familiar with the game and the maps.  I would perhaps change "expert" to "veteran" for interloper as well... or use another word that more clearly tells the player it requires familiarity with both the game and the maps.

The description of Custom, IMO, should perhaps be adjusted to eliminate the "separate from standard Survival Mode" reference.  As I've suggested somewhere here before, I think feat progression should be allowed also in Custom games... but, in the end, the feats don't really have that much of an impact so I'm not as fussed over that as I once was when I was a new player.  I really enjoy having the flexibility in a game to adjust the game modes myself without having to resort to using mods.

Edited August 27, 2019 by UpUpAway95

[Guest Marcurios]

well yes and no, i agree with you that playing this game right can only be done custom imo.
but i still think that the way the modes are set up are based on bad decisions.

aand i wasn't really complaining, although i understand it will be seen like a complaint.
it became a complaint the moment people started to reply, forcing me to elaborate on those underlying decisions that created these modes.

it all begun with this question;

On 8/25/2019 at 3:20 AM, Marcurios said:

Why is there such an incredible difference between these "experiences" ?

then when i played Interloper some more i noticed some unfair gameplay elements, mentioning that, together with the reactions i got it became a complaint more or less.. that in it's turn led to the conclusion that none of the regular game modes are thought out very well, but the mechanics to make them perfect are present in the custom mode. that made me change my mind about custom mode.
but i still don't like it that it is this way.
i'd rather have good, well thought out modes to begin with.

And no, i don't want the devs to customize the modes "to my liking", i'm not important, the well thought out mechanics are..

the voyageur equivalent of the story mode says it is the way it's ment to be played.
i mistakenly translated that back to survival mode, my bad.

i didn't notice any positive effects with the feats either, the buff you get from it is neglectable.

And my comments are not ment to downplay the devs, nor ment to say the game is bad, they are ment to provoke some further thought on the mechanics, i know they're still working on the game, someone might just think again about certain gameplay elements, if they need tweaking or such...but i'm noticing that people always need to disagree and tell me their opinion on what i said, i'm really not interested in anyone's opinion other then the devs opinions on how they came to these decisions.

Cause i know that in the end, the last thing a dev wants is to frustrate people, even if you make one of the hardest games around to play.
like i said, i don't mind freezing to death, i lowered the cold in custom, but put it back again, cause i can see that you can't hold out for very long in -40 celsius with no clothes, that's certainly not unfair..

i just like logic in games, no matter how wacky the game is..
 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Marcurios