Warmup bonus for freshly boiled water

[BareSkin]

Good idea with the stew! Cooking 3 is also nice idea, it's when the world gets too cold, you're usually kinda settled up, with no more unrenewable teas. That could also be conditioned to finding some kind of Thermos to pour the stew in. Yet, the coding problem boils down to recipes. Campfires as of today can change the status of things (cooked, melted, boiled), but cannot combine things, which is the work of the crafting section. We could imagine the stoves revamped for having a "workbench" functions, but I guess that'd be a lot of coding.

Could also be a handcrafted "premix" that would create some kind of object a bit like a canned food, that you then heat up. Just like tinder, "stew meat" could have several origins (processing any kind of meat, losing calories on the way), then "stew meat" + water makes some kid of "stew premix", which become edible only once transformed and decays like hell (-2%/h?)

As for the matter of realism, as a (medical) physicist (and also skier/alpinist nearly since I was born) all those theories about "core temperature", chemicals and so on, leave me quite skeptical. I don't see how "Core" could be anything else than blood, thus roughly 37°C.  We have most of our water quantities stored in cells with different temperatures, our skins are not at 37°C right?

And for the sake of realism, I'd better have a bonus on my FL when I spend more calories when I move/run. The calories cost of moving can't just magically evaporate, right? Since it's your muscles producing mechanical energy and heat dissipation while burning chemical energy (rapid sugars, ATP, then fat).

 

[Mroz4k]

You are right that the water we have in our bodies is stored in various places and of various temperatures. Just wanted to be a bit plain. I also dont really have much of a medical experience no more (side some First aid training) - though some time in the past I used to study pharmacy at a university. 
It was kind of a stretch to say, but it is a fact that liquified calories are much easier to digest and can induce warmth into the entire body if consumed hot - which is why soups became a hospital food sometime in 18th century (I believe) and improved the quality of hospital care majorly. Easily digested, even by sick patients, and providing a huge morale boost to the system.

Our digestive tract pulls apart food chemically into smaller molecules. I remember vaguely about lessons of denaturalization and it happening from the temp of 60 celsius and up. Maybe it is a stretch to think that the temp of the food would make this process go about easier.

That being said, eating hot liquified food does make one feel warmer for a while. But perhaps this feeling is just psychological, could also be caused by a rush of endorphines, I guess. A sugar rush does in fact contribute to the feeling of warmth (though this is again just a feeling)

When coffee and tea is concerned, I am 100% certain of what I claimed. Alcaloids in those drinks do in fact rush blood closer to the center and away from the extremidies. (Alcohol, for example, does the opposite - in that case, the warmth is purely psychological feeling and the body itself is actually feeling colder.) I admit that with reishi, I am unsure, but I did some more research and the Vitamin C has effect on blood pressure, effectively lowering it. Lower blood pressure means the blood circulates faster and this contributes to the feeling of warmth inside of your body. Though I now doubt that it actually "warms" you up, I imagine its more psychological. (additionally, lack of Vitamin C causes scurvy which contributes to random bleeding through thin parts of skin and decreased ability to heal wounds, further impliying that Vitamin C has an effect on thinning blood pressure, and in this case, ability to draw iron from food into blood)

But I guess we are trying to think too much in here  point being that whether it is an "actual" bonus or just "mental feeling", hot food and beverages can warm you up. If not for anything else, then for the reason of morale: Drinking and eating something cold in very cold enviroment is very discouraging. And can even promote dehydratation later on because a person is less likely to want to drink regularly, cause it is unpleasant. If ya all have ever been skiing and decided to take a drink of a soda you had in your bag for some 3 hours, and find it partially frozen and ice cold, you know the feeling I am talking about. Better to have a thermo bottle with at least lukewarm tea

4 hours ago, BareSkin said:

And for the sake of realism, I'd better have a bonus on my FL when I spend more calories when I move/run. The calories cost of moving can't just magically evaporate, right? Since it's your muscles producing mechanical energy and heat dissipation while burning chemical energy (rapid sugars, ATP, then fat).

This is a nice point. If it wasnt for sweating, which works in contradiction to this - cools us down, even in the cold enviroment, more if we are dressed heavily and even further if we exert too much of physical activity on top of it all. Even standing around simply dressed in winter layers we sweat a lot. Sweating cools us down from the surface of our skin inwards. I imagine the "surface temp" is what we would call the "feels like". Opposing is the core temp which would be the feeling of warmth from the inside of our bodies - and this type of feeling of warmth can last for a while. Again, not sure if its just psychological feeling or an actual measurable increase in temperature. Probably just psychological for the most part, a fleeting feeling of increased morale.

Really good point you made with the stew, being kind of problematic, due to a fact that you cant combine things at the pot right now. And I agree with your idea of having to prepare it. I guess crafting option could have "prepare a stew mix" - which would take a set of meat, take some 10 mins of time to have it all sliced up in a respective amount of water. It would show up as a "raw stew mix" in your inventory, could be "eaten", (I suppose, with much of a same effect as eating raw meat) - and it could be cooked in the pot, much like the meat steaks are right now.

(but frankly, the game will need some Cooking overhaul in the future anyways, so I imagine that combinations at cooking pot might be possible. And, if not, then I think your idea of having it as a "Crafting" option would be sufficient enough for the most part. It would certainly be easier to learn it this way for new players, as opposed to having a difficult and not intuitive crafting option per each setting of food).

[BareSkin]

3 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Maybe it is a stretch to think that the temp of the food would make this process go about easier.

It's absolutely not, being liquified eases the enzymatic degradation process (nutriments are not "hidden" inside a material) Problem is, the enzymes are a chemical catalyst that work at 37°C (for highest efficiency), meaning if you eat cold food, anyway you're stomach will have to warm it up (you get colder). If you eat hot food, basically the excess "heat energy" will be dissipated in your stomach by thermodynamics until the food is down to the correct chemical temperature. This excess "heat" provided to your stomach spreads via the blood to your extremities, thus the warmup feeling, which is actually not only a felling: your ears, fingers, noses really see their temperature rise up.

About teas and coffees, I didn't want to argue or make you feel attacked, sorry. I just have another point of view, thoses beverages are not composed only of alcaloïds. To me, they have an intrinsic nature of vasoconstriction effect (the diameter of blood vessels diminishes), meaning your extremities gets colder (viceversa with alcohol, it's a knows vaso-dilatant). Maybe the alcaloïds inside have the contrary effect, but I guess the "bonus to extremities" comes mainly from the raw heat of this beverage arriving in your stomach (see before)

On running, you don't sweat that much because of it, since sweating is when your body need to cool down: it requires a very intensive effort. I'd guess in negative FL, you should actually dehydrate less: the skin pores are closed. Basic sweating is modeled simply by the dehydration rate. For the warmth effect of running, it's just pure physics: the chemical/mechanical energy transformation just like any transformation, is not 100% efficient and the result is heat of the muscle. Just like any thermic vehicule motor.

3 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

But I guess we are trying to think too much in here  point being that whether it is an "actual" bonus or just "mental feeling", hot food and beverages can warm you up. If not for anything else, then for the reason of morale: Drinking and eating something cold in very cold enviroment is very discouraging

I couldn't have said it better! To me all this game is about behavior, it's a psychology game. And behaviour takes place in the brain. Even finding matches warms me up, psychologically!

[Mroz4k]

Very happy to learn that I havent forgotten everything out of chemistry yet, even though I traded the field of study for economics some 4 years ago.  And I am not offended at all, in fact I am very happy to argument with someone in an intelligent discussion - it is the BEST way to come to the truest conclusions. 
And I fully agree with you! I wish morale and mental state of the survivor was some sort of a "hidden" setting in it all - something that would be subtle but important - so that people would be discouraged to make their player suffer just to stretch calories to the best possible outcome - because a survivor who turns hopeless dies very, very quickly. Being able to keep cool head and make calm decisions, as well as feeling motivated by the little things in life are an absolute neccesity in survival situation.

And in a way, this can be seen in the player as well. Newbies run into problems and start panicking. Sometimes even more experienced players - in Interloper, they start freezing and are running around in panic - when it is better to just stand there, take a deep breath, take the extra 2% condition hit and come up with a clear, intelligent plan on how to get warm.

This game is all about psychology of the person who is playing the game. And to this day I find that fascinating, as I have never seen a game do this so well before. But, I am all up for having some "mental" state of the character in the game as well. 
 

[Ruruwawa]

On 9/19/2018 at 6:14 AM, TheEldritchGod said:

In reality, drinking warm liquids would warm up your core, but it would only WARM UP YOUR CORE. If your core is already warm, it should have no effect.

Hang on.  The heat of the water is itself energy, and it has to go somewhere because First Law of Thermodynamics.  I've read that the heat energy from hot drinks dissipates in seconds, but it doesn't magically disappear with no effect.  Certainly any calories in the drink are are also energy -- but not instantly, because digestion.

I must be the exception here because I drink hot, non-caloric water, tea, or coffee -- for warmth and hydration.   On snowy days (like today here in Colorado) I make a 1.5 litre vac bottle of very weak tea and take tips throughout the day.  The warming effect is transitory but real.  I can skip an extra layer when I have it.

On 9/19/2018 at 6:20 PM, BareSkin said:

And that's not a good thing, throat cancers in Asia are believed to be really more frequent because of that. (They also usually smoke and breathe crap...)

Yeah, that's what the WHO says about very hot drinks.  It's uncommon to drink hot drinks that hot in my part of the world.

I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other about how this applies to TLD.  On the one hand the game abstracts away the "most people know better" mistakes like burning your throat from just-boiled rose hip tea, and I think that's a good thing.  To me it's boring to manage every minute detail in a game; I'd rather just do real life.  But if this was a real life survival situation I'd eat hot food and drink hot drinks in this situation, fuel permitting, because it all adds up for thermodynamics. 

[stratvox]

For me, at least, hot water should not warm because game balance, full stop. No matter what, game balance always wins in the "which matters most" sweepstakes.

[BareSkin]

1 minute ago, stratvox said:

For me, at least, hot water should not warm because game balance, full stop. No matter what, game balance always wins in the "which matters most" sweepstakes.

The whole thread is about how to balance something that should be more logical. Constructively. It's stupid to have to use medicines, balanced or not. For balance's sake, we could argue that Custom Settings should not exist.

[stratvox]

Yeah, I agree. That said, I think the mushrooms are plentiful enough to qualify (I suspect that's part of the reason they're so plentiful in game). I do think that in the interests of versimilitude there should be the possible additions of a two foodstuffs that are harvestable. One would be blueberries (should be reasonably plentiful given where the game is set) to be used to forestall malnutrition, and bones from carcasses (to be used to make hot bone broth that would give some calories and a heat boost without using up actual medicine). Bone broth could require a two step process to really bring the realism; cooking the raw bone on a stove top for an hour to "roast" the bone, and two hours in a cooking pot with a litre of water to make two doses of the broth. Bonus would be boiling two bones in two liters of water in the pot to make a total of four that could be reheated in a pot or recycled can or by placing near the fire like coffee tea etc now.

[Pillock]

I really think that increasing any availability of 'warming up' drinks would need to be coupled with enforcing a requirement for proper containers to carry liquids - and for those containers to be limited.

To be honest, the balancing of this aspect of the game is not ideal at the moment, in my view, as you can 'shrink' water by making it into tea (0.25ltr of water weighs 0.25kg; 0.25ltr of tea in a cup weighs 0.10kg!), and you can carry as many ready-made cups of tea around as you want, loose in your backpack. You can also get multiple warmth bonuses from the same cup of tea or coffee by cancelling the drink progress partway through, then waiting for the effect to wear off and taking another gulp from the same drink.

I'd like to see a review of this system anyway, regardless of whether they give a warmth bonus to hot water or not, personally. But if they ever did introduce it, I think it would really really require a limiting factor on how much liquid you can carry at once. Or perhaps to give you some malus or sickness if you overfilled your stomach (especially with water). 

[s7mar7in]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 7:49 PM, stratvox said:

For me, at least, hot water should not warm because game balance, full stop.

I like your "get to the point thinking", @stratvox.
May I suggest that in-game we are not actually drinking, (we are actually peeing), based on the change to our encumbrance weight.

And conveniently, for this discussion, another adverse situation occurs when you let your bladder fill and hold it.

Kidney function will slow down because of the bladder’s feedback. Therefore as the bladder fills, urine production slows and there’s nothing for the kidney to do. This function is crucial in producing heat for your body. The metabolism of the kidney and its functions produce heat and keep the body functioning longer in extreme cold. Some of the reuptake function of the kidney sends the reusable material back to other organs causing them to continue to function, and producing internal body heat in a productive manner.

There is more to this aspect of survival of course, but I want to keep this fun and polite