UpUpAway95

I'd remodel/replace the Camp Office at Mystery Lake into a really nice large, A-Frame log home with a huge fireplace and lots of windows looking towards the lake.  Alternatively, I'd build that same home on the plateau at the Lake Overlook (along with adding a switchback road/path/driveway to the location from the railroad side.

I don't believe the linear decay formula kicks in until you enter a zone for the first time; but the condition at which the items first spawn in at is affected by how many days the world has existed.  That is, there is an increasing chance as days go on for items to spawn in a lower condition, but still a chance that those items will spawn in good condition.  I once found a sweater in relatively new condition at the summit when I arrived very late in a run (after day 500 on voyageur difficulty).  Much of the other loot was ruined at that point though.

Still, I wouldn't rush to the summit.  The only time I enjoy trying for the summit quickly is when I happen to spawn in TWM high on the mountain itself... and it's just for the challenge of doing it (and because I haven't got any time invested in that character at that point - which makes him/her more easily expendable on such a frivolity).   Without a bedroll, it's a big risk, even if you manage to have enough cloth to make a snow shelter on the way up.  Getting a hacksaw at the summit is only a chance, so most of my attempts at day 1 summits end in failure by either dying on the way up or getting there and finding no hacksaw to open things.

In addition, any of the loot you can find at the summit can be found elsewhere in the game world in areas that are generally far more easily accessible.  It's a generally sounder strategy to go to those other areas first.

11 minutes ago, dbmurph22 said:

In general the flashlight, I think.  Plus, it's heavy.  The tablets aren't really necessary, but I burn through them to save some time and they can help when you want a quick fire only.

However, for someone with experience the spray paint is probably the least helpful (and you won't find the flashlight in low resource modes).  I can see its value when you don't know maps and such so great for early to mid play, but the combination of how much of it you find and how useless it is for someone who's played more, needs mentioning.   I can use the journal to make notes of where I left things.

I thought about spray paint, but ended up putting it in the second most useless item place.  I do use it on occasion to mark a path to shore across the ice in Coastal Highway so I don't accidentally get turned around in a blizzard getting back and forth to the islands.  i have also used it to mark the safe path through the frozen delta area in Bleak Inlet.

11 minutes ago, turtle777 said:

Sure, but it's a chicken-egg issue.

For your first time forging, it's a real dangerous place to go to, at least on IL.

Plus, brining all the coal and scrap metal is an issue. It's just such a long trek.

-t

There is plenty of scrap metal in Broken Railroad... both in the maintenance shed and in the basement of the hunting lodge.  Coal is in short supply, so yeah, that has to be brought in; but let's be frank, interloper players really don't go very far without some coal on them and you only really need 4 to get the forge to temp if you get it as high as you can using wood first.  I'd say it is my favorite forge later in the game when I have a way to clear out the wolf gauntlet on my way in.  Once you're there and you've got a means of clearing out the wolves regularly, passing your days in the hunting lodge is actually pretty sweet.

The best first run forge is probably Forlorn Muskeg since you're more likely to spawn in a zone closer to it and be able to find a hammer on the way to it.  With DP, there's no hammer there if you spawn there, so you have to leave it and come back anyways to forge.  By then, you might as well make your way towards Forlorn Muskeg.

14 hours ago, SpanishMoss said:

I call water tablets "water doublers" because you can use them to double the amount of water you make in the same amount of time. The flashlight in my opinion is useless, because not only can you not use it during the Arouca, but it cannot be used as a light source to craft in the dark. It's only use is for stouts wolves, that's it.

Me too.  I usually use them up with my first fire after finding them, particularly early game where I only have one tin can... getting 1L of water in the same time it takes to boil 0.50 L can be a godsend early game.

For me, it's the flashlight.  For it to do anything, there has to be an aurora.  At any other time, it's just a paperweight in the backpack, so the odds of me having one on or even near me during an aurora are slim to none.

For this last post, I'm just going to deal with the total loot in containers and loose

Save 7 was done using the basic Stalker settings as before, but moving the Empty Container Chance Modifier from Medium (the stalker setting) to None (as was done by the OP).

Total Items Found in Containers = 76 and Total Loose Items Found = 117

The totals from Save 5 (as stated above) were 48 items in containers and 79 loose items (Note There is a typo in my previous post, since the number of papers should be 10).  The increase in the loot in containers is around 37% and the increase in loose items is about 33%.  I expected a significant increase in the amount of loot in containers, but I felt the amount of loose loot should have stayed about the same as before.  Right now, I'm wondering if I missed a significant amount of loose loot when doing Save #5... so I'm going back into that Save to check.

ETA:  As best I can tell, I only missed 4 loose items in Save 5 - 3 papers and 1 clothing item; bringing the new loose item total to 83 and the difference still around 29%.  Loot drops are so variable that these differences could just be the result of good/bad dice rolls (RNG) in each file.

At any rate, I'm going to take another break from TLD - hoping they fix the despawning corpses issue.  I know from past experience in Broken Railroad, that a corpse should spawn with the knife in Stalker; but he failed to spawn on all four Baseline Resources = Medium files.  There is also sometimes a deer that spawns with a broken arrow and I saw no sign of him in any of the files either.  I'm also wondering why the Heavy Hammer spawned inside the zone on the one Baseline Resources = Low (Interloper loot level) file... something I have never seen happen before this last update.  I would rarely get it to spawn with Baseline Resources = High

Broken Railroad - Stalker vs. Interloper Loot Settings in Custom Menu Results

Save 5 - Baseline Resources = Medium; Item Decay Rate = High; Loose Item Availability = Medium; Empty Container Chance Modifier = Medium; Rifle Availability = Yes; Revolver Availability = Yes; Reduce Container Item Density = Low

Totals of Loot Found in Containers = 8 clothing items; 1 cloth; 2 fire supplies (1 accelerant & 1 cedar); 3 First Aid (2 bandages and 1 Go); 16 Food/Drink; 1 Skill Book; 17 tools (of note were 2 mag lenses and 1 arrow)

Items Found by Breaking Crates in Maintenance Shed: 1 pair Gaunlets, 1 Stim, 2 Accelerant, 2 Pork and Beans

Totals of Loose Items Found = 5 clothing items; 5 cloth; 5 scrap metal; 1 stump removers, 8 books; 8 cedar; 6 coal; 5 fir; 1 firelog; 1 papers; 5 reclaimed wood; 1 bandage; 1 pain killers; 12 food/drink; 2 Skill Books; 24 tool items (of note - both a rifle and a revolver)

Save 6 - Baseline Resources = Low; Item Decay Rate = Very High; Loose Item Availability = Low; Empty Container Chance Modifier = High;  Rifle Availability = No; Revolver Availability = No; Reduce Container Item Density = High

Totals of Loot Found in Containers = 3 charcoal; 2 clothing items; 1 cloth; 1 cedar; 1 tinder plug; 4 food/drink; 1 skill book; 3 tools

Items Found by Breaking Crates in Maintenance shed: 1 sewing kit; 1 accelerant; 2 pork and beans

Totals of Loose Items Found: 1 clothing item; 2 cloth; 1 scrap metal; 1 stump remover; 8 books; 2 boxes of wood matches; 8 cedar; 6 coal; 5 fir; 6 reclaimed wood; 10 papers; 2 stims; 1 pain killer; 6 food/drink; 3 skill books (of note - Small Arms Handbook); 12 tools (of note - Heavy Hammer

Note:  Containers here include frozen corpses in addition to lockers, drawers, plastic containers, etc.

Note:  Loose items include any deliberately placed items in addition to items found in the snow around corpses or campfires.

51 minutes ago, UTC-10 said:

One can always drop a can on or next to a fire - it opens automatically from available tools - and let it cook until the contents turn into burned inedible ash or does that also ruin the can as well?  Never did it so I don't know for sure though I have boiled off water from recycled cans. 

Given that, until the introduction of noise-makers, there was no particular reason for the devs to create a game mechanic where the character threw away the food contents and kept the can.  The use of a recycled can for making water only came about with New Cooking which might be a reason but probably not a sufficient reason for the devs to do it either.    The fact that many have complained about the lots and lots of recycled cans that lay around them would also not favor expending time and effort to work out a way to get a recycled can by disposing of the contents.  Before New Cooking cans just "went away" (we were terrible litterers) after the contents were consumed.  

I'll have to experiment with burning food in the can to see if we do end up with a usable can.  I know that boiling a can dry depletes the condition of the can a little each time, but I've never actually destroyed a can in that way.

Even so, I still think it's an appropriate mechanic to be added now that noise makers are in the game.

1 minute ago, Strelok said:

Incredible stuff. Thanks for your work. 25% is quite a good hint. No matter if its 20% or 30% in reality. For me its about the great picture, the question if its rather 5 or 25 round about so to speak. Marginal or significant in words.

Dont get lost out there doing this.

Don't worry.  I won't.  I've finished the first "loot counting" run today and may get the other 3 done tomorrow.  We'll see if it illuminates any trend.  I'm skeptical, but one never knows... First loot run on Stalker settings had a big surprise - No matches in the zone that I could find.  The only matches I had were the 12 in my starting gear.  I did collect 2 mag lenses.  Maybe HL has done some things already to introduce more random loot and eliminate some of the "guaranteed" spawns.  I am going to recheck the regular spots for matches again just to be sure.

Results of Broken Railroad Only Save #4 - Baseline Resources Low and Harvestable Plant Availability Medium - 136 Rose Hips, 31 Reshi Mushrooms, 20 Lichen, 71 Cat tails, 2 Maple Saplings, and 4 Birch Saplings

Changing only the Harvestable Plant Availability from High to Medium seems to trigger about a 25% reduction in the number of available plants regardless of Baseline Resources.  More tests would have to be done, however, for these data to average out more consistently and a firmer conclusion could be reached.

For an attempt to calculate the effects of changing sliders affecting other loot items (i.e. not plants), I now plan to make a custom base file where the harvestable plant settings will remain set at high and the other loot settings will be set in accordance with the baseline resources settings (i.e. interloper levels and stalker levels as applicable) then I'll do a separate pair of runs where the Empty Container Chance Modifier is lowered by one notch on the slider.  I will not be counting harvestable plants for these runs since those are the foods I plan to live on during the run.  The weather and starting gear will be set a Pilgrim levels. Dysentry, food poisoning, and other ailments will be disabled to ensure I won't need to use any meds during the run.  Animals will be set at passive so I can focus entirely on looting.  Items will be counted an logged as I find them (just in case item decay might cause some to disappear in containers before the run is done).  I will also note whether the items as found in a container or loose or placed.  It's as accurate and scientific as I can think to make it at this point, although I don't really anticipate being able to spot much of a meaningful trend given the random nature of loot to be found in containers in this game.

Honestly, the game world has gotten so large that the luxury items spawn so many times in so many different places that there is very little one lacks having for very long even at the highest difficulties.  There is a huge amount of randomness in spawns at the lower difficulties, but it's basically irrelevant because there is just so much stuff now.  Certainly, with the amount of stuff in the world in general, things like "guaranteed" spawns and loot tables can be done away with completely without making the game inordinately difficult.  I still don't think it will bring back those early feelings of living on the edge of starvation or fear of running out of matches and what not.  The only times I feel challenged by not having something or enough of something is when I restrict my play towards staying long-term in the zone in which I spawn... living without a knife or hatchet and not having any prospect for making one, etc.

4 hours ago, UpUpAway95 said:

Possible - yes.  Needs more tests to really confirm anything.

Broken Railroad Save 3 - Baseline Resources Medium, Harvestable Plant Availability Medium - 120 Rose Hips (/24 = 5 teas), 27 Reshi mushrooms (/2 = 12.5 teas), 27 lichens (/3 = 9 dressings); 76 cat tails, 4 maple saplings and 4 birch saplings.  Changing the Harvestable Plant Availability does have an effect, but it is doubtful that the Baseline Resource setting has any effect, with the possible exception of saplings which may be controlled by baseline resource setting rather than harvestable plant setting.

I'm still not doing precise counting of other loot, but impressions are that it is highly variable from previous two saves even though all those loot settings are identical for all three saves.  Impossible to see any sort of consistency at this point.  Of note - no heavy hammer this save, only 1 tin of coffee, only 1 cowichan sweater and 1 pair of snow pants.  Only 1 tin of coffee, no stims in either save where Baseline Resources was medium.  In addition, both a rifle and a bow (and 2 arrows) were found in this save that were not found iin the previous Baseline Medium save.  The revolver was found both times.

Correction to paragraph 2.  Save 1 with Baseline Medium had 5 tins of coffee and Saves 2 (Baseline Low) had only 1 tin, as did Save 3 (Baseline Medium).

ETA:  Save 4 (Baseline Low, Harvestable Plants Medium) is still in progress.

I'm also developing a strategy for reliably counting the other loot.  Inordinately rapid decay rates (probably a bug) when Baseline Resources are set to low could be a problem unless I count every item as I first pick it up.  The rationale of taking everything back to a base and then counting it may result in error due to some ruined items disappearing when put into containers. For example, I've noticed that two of three stims I collected in Save 2 and some of the other meds have disappeared from the container in which I was storing them even though it has been only about 10 in-game days.  Not even sure why the stims disappeared at all... I thought they weren't supposed to decay, but I've honestly never paid close attention to storing them before.  Correction:  Both missing stims have been found (accidentally put into a different container), along with (probably) all of the other missing meds (X transfers all of a category into the container - never noticed that before).

8 hours ago, Strelok said:

Could it be possible that you think that Baseline Recources have an effect on Harvastable Plants Availability? Because the numbers give me the impression that it doesnt matter. And if so, its marginal.

Possible - yes.  Needs more tests to really confirm anything.

Broken Railroad Save 3 - Baseline Resources Medium, Harvestable Plant Availability Medium - 120 Rose Hips (/24 = 5 teas), 27 Reshi mushrooms (/2 = 12.5 teas), 27 lichens (/3 = 9 dressings); 76 cat tails, 4 maple saplings and 4 birch saplings.  Changing the Harvestable Plant Availability does have an effect, but it is doubtful that the Baseline Resource setting has any effect, with the possible exception of saplings which may be controlled by baseline resource setting rather than harvestable plant setting.

I'm still not doing precise counting of other loot, but impressions are that it is highly variable from previous two saves even though all those loot settings are identical for all three saves.  Impossible to see any sort of consistency at this point.  Of note - no heavy hammer this save, only 1 tin of coffee, only 1 cowichan sweater and 1 pair of snow pants.  Only 1 tin of coffee, no stims in either save where Baseline Resources was medium.  In addition, both a rifle and a bow (and 2 arrows) were found in this save that were not found iin the previous Baseline Medium save.  The revolver was found both times.

Here are my counts count for Broken Railroad Only:

Broken Railroad Only:  Save 1 - Baseline Resources Medium, Harvestable Plant Availability High (i.e. same as Stalker settings):  176 Rose Hips (i.e. /24 = 7 1/3 teas); 41 Reshi mushrooms (i.e. /2 = 20.5 teas), 34 lichen (i.e. /3 = 11 1/3 dressings), 4 maple saplings, 4 birch saplings, 90 cat tails.  Save 2 - Baseline Resources Low, Harvestable Plant Availability High (i.e. same as Interloper settings):  176 Rose Hips (i.e. /24 = 7 1/3 teas); 36 Reshi mushrooms (i.e. /2 = 18 teas), 37 lichen (i.e. /3 = 12 1/3 dressings); 2 maple saplings, 5 birch saplings, 100 cat tails.

I did not count other items since I was focusing on the plants and eating whatever other foods I found.  A few interesting things though - the Heavy Hammer spawned inside the zone on both Baseline settings (something that has very rarely happened at any other time I've starting in Broken Railroad at any difficulty setting).  With baseline at medium, I found 5 tins of coffee and 3 jugs of maple syrup, along with 2 sets of snow pants and 2 cowichan sweaters.  I don't think I've ever been that fortunate finding clothing in that zone before.  Zone by zone, the random loot is probably just too variable to derive meaningful data unless 100s of saves are tested.

ETA:  I also forgot to mention - with Baseline Resources Low I found a Mackinaw jacket and 3 stims in the zone.  Very lucky night for loot - I should buy a Lotto ticket.

Today, I have started two separate runs in Broken Railroad only.  Both saves are identical except for the Baseline Resources setting... one save is on Medium and the other is on Low.  Animals are passive in both saves and all the weather settings are identical (so that I can fully concentrate on collecting all of the available plants in the zone.  Harvestable Plant availability is set on "high" in both saves.  I am counting only the harvestable planets for these two runs.   So far, both amounts are nearly identical, showing that between interloper and stalker, there should be no appreciable difference in rose hips, reshis, cat tails, lichens, or saplings.  Of course, more than two comparable runs would be required to definitively isolate this single parameter.   After this is done, I plan to repeat the study changing only the harvestable plant availability parameter - one pair of saives on Baseline Medium and another on Baseline Low.  I'll report actual counts when I'm done all six runs.

2 hours ago, piddy3825 said:

@UpUpAway95  your preaching to the choir, I can appreciate your enthusiam regarding the subject but
why dont we just wait and let op respond when he gets around to it?

I don't know why you seem to be upset.  The OP can respond.  My question (which you say I answered myself) was rhetorical and scientific... merely pointing out that one really needs ot isolate the changes to individual sliders to truly understand their effects on the question at hand... which was really - How much loot is out there to find?  Comparing stalker to interloper is like comparing apples to oranges.  There are simply too many uncontrolled variables at hand.

The situation is illustrated in my first comment - plant availability in stalker and interloper is set to the same level - "high."  However, the data here show significant differences in the amounts of plants found in interloper and in the custom stalker run.  Why?

50 minutes ago, piddy3825 said:

no worries, just a question.  you even supplied your own answer.  thanks for throwing your two cents worth in the pot.

Well, to expand... I feel that the "stresses" of dealing with predators with differing behaviors at the two different standard difficulties does more to skew the impression of how much loot is really out there than changing the empty container modifier.  As I said, the most accurate result would likely come from negating the predator threat entirely and enable the person running the test comparison to focus solely on looting the maps thoroughly.  The difference created by changing the empty container modifier is somewhat predictable... moving the slider to a higher setting (i.e. increasing the chance of empty containers) lowers the amount of loot generated on the map at any difficulty level; decreasing it has the reverse affect).  What is unknown by the players (i.e. only known by Hinterlands) is by what percentage it changes per each notch on the slider... each custom menu item most likely merely substituting a different numerical value (in percent) into the appropriate formula in the code.  If moving that single slider one notch in either direction only changes the percentage chance of that single variable by, say, 1%, the resultant skew in the data would be entirely insignificant... compared with, say, a player doing the looting in interloper weather conditions while avoiding areas with bears or moose or timberwolves and then doing the test in better weather conditions armed with a rifle and not worrying about avoiding said areas.

That's pretty normal.  If you exit the game without saving a "looted" area, some of the loot in the containers that contained loot will be empty when you loot the same area a second time.  I'm pretty sure this is intentional to disincentivize save scumming in order to get better loot inside a particular building.  The workaround is to be sure to loot and then exit and re-enter the building (to generate a save that is after the looting took place) before exiting the game.

I agree with your first point - we should be able to manually select a tool for opening a can. 

I really don't care about the second point, since I can usually just put any excess charcoal I collect into a nearby container (or even a corpse - which is where I stash a lot of unneeded items, like excess cat tail heads).  It would be nice if they would add a way to permanently dispose of excess items (e.g. perhaps a commercial garbage disposal location or compactor that works during an aurora or even an incinerator).  I often wonder how the island disposed of its waste before the collapse.

The third point is not an issue for me since the creation of the red containers occurs only in zones affected by terrain updates.  I've been careful to empty them as soon as I can get back to the updated area (which is usually shortly after release of the update) and empty the red containers.  I don't use them again after that, so I don't lose items if the containers happen to be taken away in a future update.

31 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

Oh I see! Yes it would be a good idea now that noisemakers have been introduced. Maybe the ruined food could be used as a lure/bait for wolves . That way it would have some use.

I like that idea as well.  Thanks.

1 hour ago, Leeanda said:

I didn't reply because I am still trying to work out how to do it. If it can be done that is? 

Sorry - I probably should have specified.  I'd like to see them add an option when highlighting a canned item in the inventory to "open and discard contents."  The player would still need an appropriate tool to open the tin.  After selecting the option, an empty tin can would appear in the inventory just the same as it does after one eats a canned food item.  The only difference would be that the player character doesn't eat the contents, so hunger is not decreased at that time and there would be no risk of food poisoning.  The contents of the can simply disappears (no need to animate it being poured out onto the ground, or into a trash can or toilet).

Well, I guess I'm the only one who cares at all about this.  Too bad... it seems silly to me to have to risk getting food poisoning just to acquire a tin can for a noise maker.

6 hours ago, piddy3825 said:

Applaudable results @Strelok but why didn't you just play on straight up vanilla Stalker mode?
I'm also curious if you discovered and included  the extra loot found in all the prepper's caches, 3 now available in game with the new BlackRock region?
Also, what surprised you as to your findings?  Was there anything that gave you an "ah ha" moment?  

 

 

Why worry about whether or not he's playing of vanilla Stalker mode?  I would think the comparison of loot available at different baselines would be most accurate if all the settings apart from those that directly control loot drops were set to Pilgrim levels... eliminating the consumption of said items to repair damage done by predators and the "distraction" of having to fight off said predators (thereby ensuring more thorough looting of the maps).

A further proof of concept that the custom menu settings are essentially the same as the standard ones could be a single-zone comparison between, say, an interloper run started from the main menu and another started from the custom menu (although the random nature of some drops and spawns within individual zones would skew these results).

That said, changing the empty container modifier almost certainly had an impact on these results.  Changing the container density also has an impact, although there is no indication whether this was done or not.  The current state of corpses despawning may also have an effect on the rates of "loose items" found in the game since the location of these items and their related corpses may not be given away by congregations of crows; and may, therefore, result in several loose items not being located by the player(s).

Harvestable plant availability is set to "high" in both stalker and interloper templates.  Therefore, the number of cat tails, rose hips, reshi mushrooms, and saplings should be approximately the same.  I suspect the differences shown here are just due to random chance factors or the difference in timing between the two runs being compared.