"Wintertide" - seems familiar

[Hotzn]

I don't know if this is the right subforum to place this. Has anyone else seen the kickstarter campaign for "Wintertide"? Looks as if somebody has been... *cough*... heavily inspired by TLD. Even a picture with the hatchet iconically left sticking in a log. And then all the goodies people have been asking for here on the TLD forums and on Steam - snowmobiles, multiplayer, base-building, snow shoes, beer, hands and feet to be seen when looking down, hands visible when using objects... all there... must seem almost too good to be true for some.

Anybody else thinking that "Wintertide" thing looks like a scam? I mean who is behind it? Someone with a track record of making games? Is there a pre-history, some devlog? Also makes you think about copyright issues and how far you can go in copying the "style" of a game. But it's interesting to see what's out there... Canadian Winter games are the future!

[elloco999]

Not sure if they're for real or not, but if they are they are very ambitious if they think they can pull all that off for just 10,000 CAD.

I seriously doubt they are going to make it. Over 80% to go in just 6 days...

[druffzilla]

Well, I've only seen one gameplay trailer so far and it looks a bit like a lot of stuff has been copied... Some things are better done, like a real scenery for breaking into ice for example, and I would like TLD to have that too... Maybe some competition isn't bad.

And the graphic is really mediocre, TLD stands out in that aspect.

But yeah they're making a really different game in its core, it's multiplayer, and when you think about DayZ, War-Z, H1Z1, Miscreated... they're basically all the same and there is a bunch more with exactly the same "style" out there which will never make it out of alpha stage "The Dead Linger" for example.

And honestly, I have my doubts that Wintertide is going to make it into a full game one day, there are so many early access games out there and straight from the bat there comes only a very few early access titles to my mind which are progressing properly...

[FINDarkside]

Anybody else thinking that "Wintertide" thing looks like a scam? I mean who is behind it? Someone with a track record of making games? Is there a pre-history, some devlog? Also makes you think about copyright issues and how far you can go in copying the "style" of a game. But it's interesting to see what's out there... Canadian Winter games are the future!

What copyright issues? There's really nothing Hinterland could sue them for. Hinterland does not have exclusive rights to make winter survival games. That's pretty much all that these games have in common, they have completely different styles. I hope that they will get that 10k, those screenshots look great. Not sure about how the game would work though, 5v5 survival sounds strange.

And while the 10k might sound small, keep in mind that those 10k are to reach the stage where they can release it as early access.

[cowboymrh]

Haven't seen "wintertide" yet, but found another one this morning that looks like a TLD knockoff called "Kona"

in very early development but also funded by the Canadian Media Fund.

[FINDarkside]

I understand that you like The Long Dark, but I think that you need to stop disrespecting other developers. You don't even know whether they have taken any impressions from tld. At least there was kona trailer from september 2014 and it definitely looked like they had been working on it for a while. Calling those games a knockoff of tld is like calling all open world games a knockoff of GTA.

[cowboymrh]

I think that you need to stop disrespecting other developers. You don't even know whether they have taken any impressions from tld

And you don't know if they didn't. They obviously got the idea from somewhere. That's not disrespect. Every game is different.

What I say is my own personal opinion, and I'll say it whether you care for it or not.

[Hotzn]

What copyright issues? There's really nothing Hinterland could sue them for. Hinterland does not have exclusive rights to make winter survival games. That's pretty much all that these games have in common, they have completely different styles.

Mind you, I wasn't saying Wintertide was necessarily infringing copyright law. But it's legitimate to think about it. If you look closely at the Wintertide trailer and their homepage, you will see that the (intended) game has a lot more in common with TLD than just both of them being Winter survival games. But all this does not irk me as much as the Wintertide homepage not revealing who is behind it.

Kona (thx to cowboymrh for bringing this game to attention) now is something completely different. That game has a documented development history, quite a big team whose names are published on their homepage, there is some credibility at first glance. Not a guarantee, but still... big difference at first sight. And I find the similarities to TLD a lot less. Kona seems to be about an occult/criminal story.

I would like to be proven wrong, but my prediction is this Wintertide thing isn't going anywhere.

[Spottdrossel]

I don't know if this is the right subforum to place this. Has anyone else seen the kickstarter campaign for "Wintertide"? Looks as if somebody has been... *cough*... heavily inspired by TLD. Even a picture with the hatchet iconically left sticking in a log. And then all the goodies people have been asking for here on the TLD forums and on Steam - snowmobiles, multiplayer, base-building, snow shoes, beer, hands and feet to be seen when looking down, hands visible when using objects... all there... must seem almost too good to be true for some.

Anybody else thinking that "Wintertide" thing looks like a scam? I mean who is behind it? Someone with a track record of making games? Is there a pre-history, some devlog? Also makes you think about copyright issues and how far you can go in copying the "style" of a game. But it's interesting to see what's out there... Canadian Winter games are the future!

So you're calling it a "scam" because it might be one?

Would you like to apply the same line of thinking to calling people "hypocrite"?

What have the people behind this campaign done to earn your mistrust and resentment?

Hinterland has no track record of making games as well.

TLD is the first title of a newly formed company. The people may have experience, but who's to say that's not the case for the organization behind "Wintertide" as well.

After all you admitted that you have no idea who they are, so how can you discount this possibility?

And seeing how many feature requests have been made and remained unanswered, it's no wonder someone would pick up on that. I have some very serious doubts myself that Hinterland will deliver on all the stretch goals they committed to back on Kickstarter.

Having startups attempt to do better is nothing more than being a keen entrepreneur and reacting to what potential customers want and don't get from the companies that already exist.

Mind you, I wasn't saying Wintertide was necessarily infringing copyright law. But it's legitimate to think about it. If you look closely at the Wintertide trailer and their homepage, you will see that the (intended) game has a lot more in common with TLD than just both of them being Winter survival games. But all this does not irk me as much as the Wintertide homepage not revealing who is behind it.

http://www.wintertide.ca/about-us/

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wintertide/wintertide-a-first-person-competitive-team-surviva/creator_bio

Did you not find this information or is it just insufficient for you?

The Kickstarter campaing for TLD contained even less information, so why is this irking you?

Or did you expect to know everyone capable of making a "Winter Survival Game" that you'd find worthy of this description and Mr Andrew Moldenhauer is not a name on that list?

[FINDarkside]

I have some very serious doubts myself that Hinterland will deliver on all the stretch goals they committed to back on Kickstarter.

I don't have any doubts on that they will, since the stretch goals only include graphic novel, more music and translations.

Mind you, I wasn't saying Wintertide was necessarily infringing copyright law. But it's legitimate to think about it.

The fact that who's behind the game has nothing to do with copyright issues. And the only case where there might be copyright issues if they actually copied something from the long dark and Hinterland could prove it. That's how it basically works, your ideas don't have copyright protection. As long as you don't copy any assets like sound, images, models or code you are fine.

And you don't know if they didn't. They obviously got the idea from somewhere. That's not disrespect. Every game is different.

Well I would call it disrespecting to call another game a knockoff only because you like another winter survival game. Even if they got the idea from tld which is highly unlikely, it wouldn't mean that it's a knocnḱoff. That's how the game industry gets forward, you reuse good ideas.

[Patrick Carlson]

We're certainly curious and interested to see how other studios might interpret the concept of winter survival.

As for the Hinterland team, if anyone here is curious to see some of many titles completed and shipped by our designers, artists, programmers, and composers, feel free to take a look at our team page. Everyone working on the game has a bio: http://hinterlandgames.com/studio/our-team/

That being said, as always, whatever your opinion of The Long Dark or any other game, please keep the tone here civil, friendly, and respectful.

Cheers,

Patrick

[Hotzn]

So you're calling it a "scam" because it might be one?

I did not call it a scam. I said that I THINK it LOOKS like a scam. That's a big difference.

Would you like to apply the same line of thinking to calling people "hypocrite"?

Since we are talking about different lines of thinking, the answer has to be no.

What have the people behind this campaign done to earn your mistrust and resentment?

I do not resent them, I just mistrust them. The reasons have been explained in my previous posts.

TLD is the first title of a newly formed company. The people may have experience, but who's to say that's not the case for the organization behind "Wintertide" as well.

After all you admitted that you have no idea who they are, so how can you discount this possibility?

I did not and do not discount this possibility.

http://www.wintertide.ca/about-us/

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wintertide/wintertide-a-first-person-competitive-team-surviva/creator_bio

Did you not find this information or is it just insufficient for you?

I found this information, it is just insufficient for me.

The Kickstarter campaign for TLD contained even less information, so why is this irking you?

The kickstarter campaign for TLD contained a lot more information. It's still online.

Or did you expect to know everyone capable of making a "Winter Survival Game" that you'd find worthy of this description and Mr Andrew Moldenhauer is not a name on that list?

No.

Dear Spottdrossel, I am under the impression that there is an unfriendly undertone to your questions, and I wonder why that is. I am not here to get into arguments with other players. The point of my OP was to direct attention to Wintertide, whose mere existence and kickstarter campaign I find genuinely interesting. I have no hard feelings against the people who plan to make it. However, from the looks of the campaign and Wintertide's web presence I would not trust them and I am free to say so. Everyone else is free to believe otherwise and fund their campaign. We'll see how it all turns out.

And thanks for pointing out that some Andrew Moldenhauer is one of the developers. I overheard that the first time I watched the trailer. Now that there is at least a name, the whole thing looks a bit better to me. But only a bit.

[elloco999]

So you're calling it a "scam" because it might be one?

No, he's saying it looks like a scam because it does look like a scam.

If I look at their kickstarter it looks like someone hacked some "screenshots" together (some of those interior shots look like they are made in some interior design software instead of a game IDE), dreamed up some nice story and is now trying to cache in on that.

Also the styles of the buildings, the persons, the animals and the environment don't match. It looks like they have just gotten some mediocre models from different sites and combined those for the sole purpose of creating something for the kickstarter. Add to that the fact that they only need $10000 to get it ready for early access, they should be much further along than the only video would make me believe.

So yes, this looks like a scam to me. At the very least this sounds to me like a project not worth investing, at the worst it is indeed a scam.

If it's not, I hope they will raise the 10K, make a great game and prove me wrong.

Did you not find this information or is it just insufficient for you?

The Kickstarter campaing for TLD contained even less information, so why is this irking you?

No, that is not enough for me.

Actually, the TLD kickstarter gives about the same amount of info in their bio:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hinterlandgames/the-long-dark-a-first-person-post-disaster-surviva/creator_bio

But on the main page of the kickstarter, if you scroll down you will find a list of all the team members (at the time of the kickstarter) and a description of each of them. This allows one to check out these people and find that they are indeed people with a good deal of relevant experience in their fields. This gives me a lot more confidence in the team's ability to deliver what they promise.

Or did you expect to know everyone capable of making a "Winter Survival Game" that you'd find worthy of this description and Mr Andrew Moldenhauer is not a name on that list?

If I google Andrew Moldenhaur I don't find any references to someone who might be experienced in making or producing games. In his defense, they don't claim to be experienced in any way.

Now if this was offset by a great looking in game footage combined with realistic goals and realistic funding I might still go along with it. I do think starting indie studios deserve my attention just as much as AAA studios or even more so. But the kickstarter is not convincing me that this is worth my money or even that it is for real.

For the record: I'm not against people trying to make game that are like TLD. In fact I would like other studios to make games like TLD because I would like to play other games like TLD.

[quinch1199]

Well to be honest THE main draw for me to TLD was that it was You vs. Environment. If this other game is aiming at a Team Battle Royale style survival game with environmental aspects then all you will get is a similarly PvP slug-fest like DayZ or even Unturned (that game had potential in single player).

Only the vague setting is tipping a nod to TLD.

With these games the situation is always the same, the only real threat comes from other players...never the environment as the developers of these games start out hoping.

I wouldn't mind a TLD two player mode for example...but again purely cooperative in nature and with extremely limited numbers.

Granted in DayZ etc you "can" arrange this if you buy private servers etc but rarely even then the environment proves much of a challenge. In fact the only real zombies that pose an actual problem are those in Unturned but even then...you start to rapidly outstrip them due to XP upgrades and equipment finds.

In TLD you have BARELY what you need to get through until you get really experienced or well into the game. This is the major draw for the game, the world is always dangerous.

[Bill Tarling]

After taking a look through both the campaign and their studio website - I don't think it's a case of it being a "scam" [$10k wouldn't be a very big reward], but rather "inexperience".

It is possible to make a very small and limited multiplayer game on a minimal budget (there are a number of beginner Game Maker type programs to create some homemade generic [premade meshes and stock code] game creation software).

So while $10k is a rather unrealistic budget for full development [although they mention they've worked on it for a year], I'll let that go -- except for their description of how the $10k budget is proportioned... According to their figures, $500 would go to business operating expenses, and $500 would go to legal expenses -- neither of those figures would cover much, so again I question their experience (and I'm not even sure what the 15% for Taxes covers)

There's nothing wrong being inspired to make a game similar to another success [the industry is filled with clones and replicated themes of successful games]. Hinterland have their own specific vision for The Long Dark, and have repeatedly said their work has inspired other programmers and studios as well. There's plenty of room for different games that follow up using similar themes -- some aspects may even seem better, many aspects may seem worse, and mostly most aspects will have differences in the big picture final play.

Kôna has been in development for the past year (see this thread) and while it takes place in the Canadian winter, it's a completely different type of game compared to TLD -- it's an episodic mystery game.

There are other games like Eternal Winter which took their inspiration from TLD to make their own game as well. You can check out a few YouTube videos to see whether the game looks like it will have enough content or gameplay for your needs.

There are many other "winter" based games as well, as well as new crops of survival type genre games.Again, the Hinterland team have a solid vision intended for TLD, and are experienced enough not to think of it as "there can only be one winner in this niche". In fact, they've often supported and encouraged other developers -- there's enough room for everyone.

Now, my one problem where I am suspicious about the Wintertide dev experience... and this sends up more red flags for me than the budget.

On their Kickstarter campaign, they talk about making their game for Playstation and Xbox as well. They even have a target goal saying they need to reach the $500k KS goal to build a version for PS and Xbox. However, console contracts don't work that way -- unlike for PC, you can't simply make a game and tell them to sell it on their platform. So while they can make a PS or Xbox version, that doesn't mean it would automatically get released on either.

And Now The Legal Danger Zone -- Look on their website (which doesn't include the details or development info listed on the KS campaign - apart from a separate "Donation" page which lists the same rewards as those on the KS page)... at the very bottom of the front page, they announce the game will be "Coming Soon" on Playstation and on Xbox -- and they use the logos as well.

You cannot legally claim the game is coming to those platforms unless you have a contract in place... and you absolutely cannot use those company logos to give an appearance that your game has been accepted and approved by Playstation and Xbox for release on their consoles. Given that they're also accepting donations and money through their site, using the PS and Xbox logos (especially as a done deal) to entice backers/finance support is grounds for a lawsuit by both companies (which will require much more than the $500 KS legal fee portion of the KS budget).

they announce on the KS campaign page that the game is Steam Greenlit, so that Steam logo use on their website would be likely okay

With some of the red flags (and again, I don't think it's intended as a "scam", but rather just misguided lack of experience), personally I get the feeling the studio may be more like a group of friends or casual designers getting together for the project, and there may not be an actual experienced studio leader [business & team manager] at the helm.

Hopefully if all goes well for them, we may eventually see even a small version of the game, and who knows, it may even be successful and can grow. But overall (just for me personally), I think I'll pass on the Kickstarter Backing for Wintertide -- I'm just not comfortable with some of the signs of missing business experience which would normally be needed to manage a development to completion.

I do hope they manage to complete the game though (in whatever stage of development they can reach), and would possibly purchase it down the road if they reach a release stage.

[elloco999]

You're probably right Bill. It does look more like they are just inexperienced and not like they're trying to scam people.

Wintertide is indeed green lit on Steam but apparently not many of the people who voted on greenlight could be bothered to back the KS. I'm sure it takes more than 55 people to greenlight a project.

Like I said before I hope they do make it somehow. If they are just inexperienced they could grow and in the future make a great game.

[Hotzn]

@Bill Tarling - thanks for a very informative post. As always, one might add.

The Wintertide kickstarter campaign has run out in the meantime, by the way. The project didn't get funded.

[druffzilla]

@Bill Tarling - thanks for a very informative post. As always, one might add.

The Wintertide kickstarter campaign has run out in the meantime, by the way. The project didn't get funded.

What happens with the money of the backers in a case like this, does it get refunded or do the devs get to keep it?

[Bill Tarling]

@Bill Tarling - thanks for a very informative post. As always, one might add.

The Wintertide kickstarter campaign has run out in the meantime, by the way. The project didn't get funded.

What happens with the money of the backers in a case like this, does it get refunded or do the devs get to keep it?

The money isn't charged to card or payment system until a project is successfully backed -- so if a project doesn't get backing, the person is not charged. Payments only happen after backing finishes. 8-)

[druffzilla]

What happens with the money of the backers in a case like this, does it get refunded or do the devs get to keep it?

The money isn't charged to card or payment system until a project is successfully backed -- so if a project doesn't get backing, the person is not charged. Payments only happen after backing finishes. 8-)

Alright, so backing something is not as risky as I thought, thanks for the info.

[elloco999]

What happens with the money of the backers in a case like this, does it get refunded or do the devs get to keep it?

The money isn't charged to card or payment system until a project is successfully backed -- so if a project doesn't get backing, the person is not charged. Payments only happen after backing finishes. 8-)

Alright, so backing something is not as risky as I thought, thanks for the info.

This is true for kickstarter, but not for every website where you can back projects. There are also websites where your money is given to the project immediately and if the project isn't funded they get to keep it.

On kickstarter the backers are protected in case a project isn't funded. However, if the project is funded but fails or if the people behind the project run off with the money, you are still out of luck.

I have backed 45 projects on Kickstarter so far. 14 have not been funded, of the remaining 31 project most have delivered and the others are still working. Some have huge delays but I do believe they are still working on their projects. So, so far no projects that have definitively failed yet. But I do research each project before backing and if I don't trust it or feel like they are over ambitious and not likely to succeed I generally won't back it. So if you pay attention and keep a level head it's pretty safe, but there is always a risk.

[bethany]

What happens with the money of the backers in a case like this, does it get refunded or do the devs get to keep it?

The money isn't charged to card or payment system until a project is successfully backed -- so if a project doesn't get backing, the person is not charged. Payments only happen after backing finishes. 8-)

Alright, so backing something is not as risky as I thought, thanks for the info.

This is the case for Kickstarter, but if you're ever backing a project on Indiegogo, the creator is not obligated to return all of your money even if the campaign fails.

Seemed worth mentioning, just in case