Rifle Inaccurate as hell

[Smeden]

I took a break from TLD for a couple of months because it got kind of boring doing the same thing everyday with no other areas to go to and everything explored. I came back to find many changes, most of them quite nice.

The rifle however is still crap. Here's a simple test. Hold the rifle at the side of a building or tree and note where your targeting/interaction dot is. Then right click to aim down the sights. The top of the iron sight is now quite a bit above where the actual targeting/interaction dot was. To confirm it, look again where the targeting dot is, aim down the sights and fire without adjusting your aim. when you bring the weapon down, the hit area is well below where you were aiming down the sights. This isn't a ballistics matter, it's poor sight placement.

Now understanding this is a video game and not everyone know what a real "sight picture" should look like, it's not hard to do a simple google and find many sight picture examples. The graphic of the rifle when aimed should be lowered to represent a more accurate sight picture. This will decrease quite a bit of wasted ammo for new players who are actually getting a good sight picture but missing due to the poor alignment. If this is by design to create some form of difficulty to the game, it's a cheap maneuver and the developer took the easy way out. Hunting rifles are built primarily to be accurate for the type of ammunition they fire and have a range of wildlife they're most effective against or designed for. To have a "hunting rifle" as inaccurate as this one, is kind of pointless.

And lastly, it's nice that you actually put foraging for wood into the game now instead of just standing by your door and having to there while a clock ticks by as you "foraged". But again.....You put a hacksaw in the game.....but no Axe? In all of my searching and foraging across 2 zones I've found very few fir trees to forage and I don't use it for firewood mostly but for repairing tools. How is it that we have a hacksaw for cutting apart shelves, but still no axe so we can simply go cut down a tree for wood? I mean, we're in the mountains....These residents has knives, hatchets, rifles and apparently now hacksaws.....But nobody has an Axe?

Don't get me wrong, I love the game and where it's going for the most part, but sometimes the order of implementation is kinda wonky...

[selfless]

Please correct the title. Hunting Rifle is incredibly accurate. Complaint is with how the sight is aligned. The rifle however always hits in the same place exactly when referenced with the sight.

I agree with what you describe. In real life I expect to sight a rifle by placing the post immediately under what I intend to hit. Here it is sighted such that you cover your target with the tip of the post. Odd. But always accurate.

P.S. There is no targeting dot. There is only a selection dot. Trying to use the selection dot for targeting will be the cause of many missed shots.

P.P.S. Is it weird that Googling "Iron sight picture" linked me to this?

http://www.hinterlandforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=4590#p27133

[piddy3825]

I know it really doesn't matter, but I always like to repair the rifle before using it.

Regardless of condition, I find that when I crouch and take deliberate aim, the rifle hits what I shoot at. The closer the better.

However, when standing and at longer distances not always the case.

At any rate, maybe its the ballistics of the .303 round and not so much the sight picture.

[druffzilla]

Indeed, although I'm not sure how well ballistics are simulated in TLD the sights could be just zeroed for a certain range. A minigame where you can adjust your sights would be cool.

I personally never had the feeling they are much off.

About the axe, just keep your eyes open they are usually not hard to find...

[McGuffin]

I am pretty sure the accuracy is also related to the rifle degradation, and maybe also to the fatigue (like it is for the bow, but the bow also move much more when you are tired, while the rifle remains steady, graphically, at least)

[druffzilla]

I am pretty sure the accuracy is also related to the rifle degradation, and maybe also to the fatigue (like it is for the bow, but the bow also move much more when you are tired, while the rifle remains steady, graphically, at least)

Good point, the rifle being super steady at all times always bothered me.

[Smeden]

About the axe, just keep your eyes open they are usually not hard to find...

I have yet to see an axe. I've seen plenty of hatchets. I don't see why there isn't an axe so we could cut down trees.

[druffzilla]

About the axe, just keep your eyes open they are usually not hard to find...

I have yet to see an axe. I've seen plenty of hatchets. I don't see why there isn't an axe so we could cut down trees.

Whoops.. My bad

I guess chopping down trees would be more inefficient than simply collecting sticks and chopping up some limbs.

[Vortex]

I don't mean to be "that guy", but I rarely miss with the rifle...

Do you let your targets come to you? Lead them into the shot - it helps if you're crouched too.

I one shot Wolves and Deer 99% of the time.

Bears are a different story, but usually my shots hit them...

[Smeden]

I don't mean to be "that guy", but I rarely miss with the rifle...

Do you let your targets come to you? Lead them into the shot - it helps if you're crouched too.

I one shot Wolves and Deer 99% of the time.

Bears are a different story, but usually my shots hit them...

that sight picture you have is no where near the sight picture that hits in my game. That sight picture would be in the ground every time. rifle is kept above 80% always, most of the time it's above 90% wear.

Yes, I lead. I've got nearly 38 years of experience hunting in real life and qualified expert throughout my military career. I'm almost always crouched except where terrain makes it ineffective for the shot.

For nearly 90% of the shots I've hit with, the sight picture on my screen is with the post above the animal. and I'm not talking long range shots either. If you think of the PV orchards, the distance of 1-2 trees is the normal distance for my shots. That's nothing in terms of range for a rifle. When the bears used to walk past the PV house I would crouch on the porch, put the top of the sight post just above the head and one shot them. We're talking 20-25 feet, that's point blank for a rifle. So that right there says the sight picture you have and the sight picture I have are completely different for hits.

[Smeden]

About the axe, just keep your eyes open they are usually not hard to find...

I have yet to see an axe. I've seen plenty of hatchets. I don't see why there isn't an axe so we could cut down trees.

Whoops.. My bad

I guess chopping down trees would be more inefficient than simply collecting sticks and chopping up some limbs.

I would literally take 3 sticks per piece of meat to cook and getting 1 liter of drinkable water would take 12 sticks minimum, most likely closer to 15-16 sticks. Why would I walk miles gathering sticks when I could walk 20 yards and chop down a tree and get maybe 15 actual logs which could handle cooking an entire bear? To harvest a single cedar or fir limb takes 45 minutes and you get 3 logs. So have an actual tree take 3 hours, which would be reasonable for complete harvest and give 15 logs, also a completely reasonable amount. To get the same amount of burn time with sticks would take you a day. To do it by harvesting limbs would take you 45m per limb(x5) plus travel time around the map to various foraging locations where they spawn, so roughly 6 hours of game time or a third of the day. An axe would be far more efficient for gathering wood, history has proven it.

[Smeden]

Please correct the title. Hunting Rifle is incredibly accurate. Complaint is with how the sight is aligned. The rifle however always hits in the same place exactly when referenced with the sight.

I agree with what you describe. In real life I expect to sight a rifle by placing the post immediately under what I intend to hit. Here it is sighted such that you cover your target with the tip of the post. Odd. But always accurate.

P.S. There is no targeting dot. There is only a selection dot. Trying to use the selection dot for targeting will be the cause of many missed shots.

P.P.S. Is it weird that Googling "Iron sight picture" linked me to this?

http://www.hinterlandforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=4590#p27133

The selection dot you're referring to is the center screen point where all actionable hot spots will light up. It's also the point at which the rifle actually fires. I've run multiple tests to confirm this in multiple iterations of the game. Before recent updates when the dot now disappears it was always present though sometimes hard to see due to the snow.

And yah, naturally a google would lead you to someone else having a similar complaint.

[Vortex]

that sight picture you have is no where near the sight picture that hits in my game. That sight picture would be in the ground every time. rifle is kept above 80% always, most of the time it's above 90% wear.

Yes, I lead. I've got nearly 38 years of experience hunting in real life and qualified expert throughout my military career. I'm almost always crouched except where terrain makes it ineffective for the shot.

For nearly 90% of the shots I've hit with, the sight picture on my screen is with the post above the animal. and I'm not talking long range shots either. If you think of the PV orchards, the distance of 1-2 trees is the normal distance for my shots. That's nothing in terms of range for a rifle. When the bears used to walk past the PV house I would crouch on the porch, put the top of the sight post just above the head and one shot them. We're talking 20-25 feet, that's point blank for a rifle. So that right there says the sight picture you have and the sight picture I have are completely different for hits.

... that's not a sight picture, that is a profile signature... the line is deliberately lower otherwise you cannot really make out that it is a wolf - thus, the picture would be useless for the purposes it was intended for.

What you see in my signature image is not the sort of shot I take.

[druffzilla]

I would literally take 3 sticks per piece of meat to cook and getting 1 liter of drinkable water would take 12 sticks minimum, most likely closer to 15-16 sticks. Why would I walk miles gathering sticks when I could walk 20 yards and chop down a tree and get maybe 15 actual logs which could handle cooking an entire bear? To harvest a single cedar or fir limb takes 45 minutes and you get 3 logs. So have an actual tree take 3 hours, which would be reasonable for complete harvest and give 15 logs, also a completely reasonable amount. To get the same amount of burn time with sticks would take you a day. To do it by harvesting limbs would take you 45m per limb(x5) plus travel time around the map to various foraging locations where they spawn, so roughly 6 hours of game time or a third of the day. An axe would be far more efficient for gathering wood, history has proven it.

It takes 5 sticks to boil 1 liter of water, you need to walk less then 100m to collect them.

A axe weights more and takes more energy to use and chopping up a whole tree into firewood in 3 hours? I don't think that is very realistic...

I never have problems to gather enough firewood and to harvest 5 limbs I don't have to walk further then ~500m in total.

Maybe an axe would be more efficient if your main goal is to harvest a lot of wood but using it to chop up some frozen animals, harvest saplings and carrying it everywhere seems less optimal then a hatchet.

[Scyzara]

I guess RL experience with rifles is so to say the cause of handling problems with TLD rifles.

I've never used a rifle in real life, but I pretty much assume the aiming system in TLD (how you need to align the central bar with your desired target) works somehow differently than in real life. And those who try to aim with TLD rifles like one would do it with a RL rifle thus don't hit their target and get the impression TLD rifles were inaccurate.

I've no idea how you aim with a hunting rifle in RL, but in TLD the bullet always hits whatever you see slightly above the upper edge of the central bar - regardless of the distance between you and your target or the wind direction. If you shoot this way, the rifle is (at least in my opinion) very accurate. I hardly ever miss a shot, neither on short nor long distances. Nothing to complain about from my point of view.^^

[Warg]

What I wouldn't give if the devs were to enable bullet holes on whatever you shot.....and 50 rounds to test that craby .303 rifle at different ranges. As is now I'm a greater menace for whatever is [glow=red]near[/glow] the target!

Scyzara, what is "slightly above the upper edge of the central bar", in widths of the same central bar (pin)?

I've given this some thought and googling time (hey, it's weekend, right?) and came up with this graph

[Foxen]

Hmmmm.....I have such a feeling that all these cute little graphics are absolutely useless...unless anybody knows exactly what Kind of Ammunition we're actually using.....

May sound weird to most of you, but it's not all about the used Caliber...

[Warg]

May sound weird to most of you, but it's not all about the used Caliber...

Right, its a multiple variable function taking into account the bullet alone: how much powder in the cartridge, weight of the bullet, aerodynamics, casing... but even allowing for double or triple the variation, at the about 50m the maximum useful range, a headshot on a wolf or deer shouldn't miss, considering the aiming visuals.

I have a hunch that the shooting is not so much a random trajectory in a cone intersecting something but a random number and the aiming visuals are just a candy on top that.

Yes, the trigger pushing may move the aim, the bore may not be aligned to the sights (those would be from the condition of the rifle), the breathing and fatigue may influence aiming...but all these are not apparent from the aiming.

It would be easy to implement a rithmic, random moving of the aim, but that has to correspond to the direction the bullet will be shot, not the other way round.

Easier still would be to have the bullet holes implemented.

[Vortex]

Guys... the gun is not the only thing that isn't realistic about the game.

When you start applying 'realism' to just certain components to the game, the magic tends to start falling apart.

I don't think we need to apply ballistic trajectory sciences to this.

If you've played a lot of First Person Shooter games (None of which have guns which behave 'precisely' like their real life counterparts. Not even the COD's or Battlefields.) then the Hunting Rifle in TLD is ballpark with the FPS genre.

Some people in this thread want the guns to behave *exactly* like the real ones do. I doubt that the target market for TLD is going to consist mostly of gun owners, or even people that have fired a gun.

I've played many an FPS title in my life, but I am yet to fire anything higher than a BB in reality. I don't have issues aiming with the Hunting Rifle in TLD.

[Warg]

Not wishing to overburden this topic, but when you get a few rounds only, you will want to use them all. The rifle is inaccurate, good, but without bullet marks there is no way to compensate. I agree, I got carried away with ballistics earlier. It should be a minigame of skill, you vesus adverse factors and with practice you would get to a nice kill from across the clearing. It would be nice if this minigame was optional, not necessarily difficulty based.

As is now, I'm only taking point blank shots (like in your image) to conserve ammo.

P.S. I've yet to fire any gun myself. Real bows, yes.

[Vortex]

I think I need to remove my 'artistic' signature picture... people keep assuming it's how I aim.

[selfless]

If you want to know where the rifle shoots, find yourself a car.

Now stand behind the drivers side of the car.

Shoot the side mirror.

Too high, you missed. Too low, you missed.

Once you have it just right, back up, try again.

Huh, now you know where the rifle shoots.

Enjoy.

P.S. Don't need bullet holes. Need soda cans to explode when shot.

P.P.S Why do people assume shooting anything moving inside 20 meters with a long gun would be easy? If anything these should be the hardest shots to make.

[Farmerbob]

If you want to know where the rifle shoots, find yourself a car.

Now stand behind the drivers side of the car.

Shoot the side mirror.

Too high, you missed. Too low, you missed.

Once you have it just right, back up, try again.

Huh, now you know where the rifle shoots.

Enjoy.

P.S. Don't need bullet holes. Need soda cans to explode when shot.

P.P.S Why do people assume shooting anything moving inside 20 meters with a long gun would be easy? If anything these should be the hardest shots to make.

If I have a 100% repaired rifle, I know exactly where the bullet should appear. Exactly where the sight picture says it will go, at least for any sort of short-ranged shot. Anything else is unacceptable.

[Jay75]

I usually fire when my target is at 25-30 yards. From a crouched position I "cover" my target (the head of the animal usually) with the front blade sight. To clairify, the front sight slices the head on the animal right down the middle, vertically. The head does not sit on top of the front sight. Using this method with a 80% - 100% rifle I have a 100% success rate.

[Farmerbob]

I usually fire when my target is at 25-30 yards. From a crouched position I "cover" my target (the head of the animal usually) with the front blade sight. To clairify, the front sight slices the head on the animal right down the middle, vertically. The head does not sit on top of the front sight. Using this method with a 80% - 100% rifle I have a 100% success rate.

I have tried both back sight centering and front sight centering, shooting at center mass, from the side, with 90%+ repaired rifles. Range is always 20 meters or less. Three out of four shots fail to cause bleeding. Maybe one in twenty shots is an instant kill.