Feedback: Less wolves

[Killerboom204]

You're obviously in your first 100 hours of gameplay, play the game a bit more and you'll find they're a lot easier to get around once you actually know the map & what you're doing. Pro gamer tip, wolves will slow to a crawl when trying to follow you up a steep incline, once you get to the top, you shouldn't even need an entire stamina bar to get far enough away that the wolf simply loses interest. 

[Vince 49]

Hi @ManicManiac.  Thank you for your detailed response.  I have followed many, but not all, of the avoidance behaviors you describe, especially when cresting a blind ridge.  I do, however, have two questions.

First, you talk about throwing rocks without "aiming in".  By aiming in, do you mean sighting the wolf in the circle of your other hand?  Also, in your experience, does a wolf actually change its behavior based on actions the player makes with his hands?

Second, at one point you say "Then I just make sure to take a well aimed shot at the head as it's running straight for me.  Generally this will put it down pretty consistently".  I have not seen that behavior -- I wish.  In my experience, without a decoy, wolves will juke side to side in a random fashion as they charge, which makes hitting them with a ranged weapon very difficult.  Some time ago, I read a post where someone said that moving sideways (with the A or D key) would force the wolf to charge in a straight line.  I have not been able to get that to work.

Maybe there is something I'm missing.  In any case, thanks again for sharing so much useful information.

 

[ManicManiac]

1 hour ago, Vince 49 said:

First, you talk about throwing rocks without "aiming in".  By aiming in, do you mean sighting the wolf in the circle of your other hand?  Also, in your experience, does a wolf actually change its behavior based on actions the player makes with his hands?

By aiming in, I mean right clicking in order to "aim" (using your hand as a guide)... this will always cause a stalking wolf to charge just like aiming with any other projectile weapon.  You can throw a stone in much the same way you can fire the revolver without aiming in (fire from the hip, so to speak).  When using stones on wolves, I don't right click to aim... and I've practiced enough to be able to estimate where the stone is going to go and I've gotten pretty effective at using this technique to deter stalking wolves.

  

1 hour ago, Vince 49 said:

does a wolf actually change its behavior based on actions the player makes with his hands?

Yes, when we aim a weapon (including right clicking to aim when throwing a stone) and the wolf is already stalking you... it will instantly go into a charge.  The same is true of the bear. 
 

1 hour ago, Vince 49 said:

Second, at one point you say "Then I just make sure to take a well aimed shot at the head as it's running straight for me.  Generally this will put it down pretty consistently".  I have not seen that behavior -- I wish.  In my experience, without a decoy, wolves will juke side to side in a random fashion as they charge

This is why I lure the wolf as flat a terrain as possible, to keep the juking to a minimum.  The best place for tempting them into a straight charge is flat terrain (the most ideal being ice - but most any reasonably flat stretch will do).  I find that the reason for the juking behavior (I think) is when there is bumpy ground which interacts with the pathing algorithms... I think that when a bump in the terrain registers as an obstacle, that's when the wolf will often suddenly change angles of approach.  If the line is straight and the way is flat and smooth, then it pretty consistently beelines right at your face.  When they are running straight at you, pulling off a head shot is more or less straight forward. 

For a lot of this game (I think), one of the biggest advantages a player can leverage is paying close attention to the terrain.  If you lead the wolf to the flattest area you can find, you get have more control over the encounter. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Vince 49]

Hi @ManicManiac.  I've tried some experiments based on what you said.  I can confirm that, surprising to me, as soon as I aim, the wolf does begin to charge.  Unfortunately, I cannot confirm that the wolf will charge straight at the player if on a very level surface.  I've attached two videos; one made with Vigilant Flame, and one made with the most recent update of Fearless Navigator.  Both show a wolf begin his charge as soon as the bow begins to rise to the aiming position.  I can tell that the wolf has started his charge because he immediately jukes to the left or right.  In both of these particular instances, the wolf straightens out a few meters before reaching the player.  However, I have another video I can upload if necessary, where the wolf only straightens out about two meters from the player.  In that case, although I put an arrow in his face, the wolf attacked.  I won the struggle quickly, but had to track him over Hell's half acre to get my arrow back.

I have learned two things relative to the wildlife that have changed recently.  First, moose are no longer afraid of fire!  Second, besides the blood trail, the newer versions of TLD show the wolf paw prints in the snow which makes tracking to get your arrow back easier.

There was a problem with the videos.  I've resolved it for the first, which is now attached.  I could attach others, now that I know what codec to use, but this is typical of both the old Vigilant Flame and the latest Fearless Navigator.

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Vince 49
problem with videos

[ManicManiac]

2 hours ago, Vince 49 said:

Unfortunately, I cannot confirm that the wolf will charge straight at the player if on a very level surface. 

I'm only speaking from my personal experience over the course of 1500 hours or so of game play, and in my experience this has held true for me a vast majority of the time (sometimes there has been some inexplicable apparent randomness, but that's to be expected I think with any resonably complex string of variables)...  I don't claim to know definitively, I just know what has been working very well for me.  

However in your video... I'll point out that after the wolf started the charge it did juke at first to get lined up with you... once it got lined up, it held a straight path until you struck it down with your arrow.  This was the behavior I was talking about.  If you had aimed in while it was farther away, it very likely would have lined up and then made a beeline over a much greater distance.

So far, I've only noticed a wolf juke when it "senses" and obstacle (even something like uneven terrain), or if it's pathing algorithm decides it needs to make a course correction to get better lined up with the player.  This is why I recommend luring them to the flattest area you can find, so that you have better potential to control the encounter.  (again though, because I can't look at the code, I can't know for sure... these are just my observations during play, and no it's not always 100% it's just the tactic I use)

2 hours ago, Vince 49 said:

First, moose are no longer afraid of fire!

This is good to know, thank you.  (I've never used that tactic - but it's still good to be aware of)

Also, well done on that shot... you know, after all this time I'm still mostly rubbish with the bow and arrow.
I think my next personal challenge will be bow only in stalker mode... just to finally force myself to get really proficient with it.

 

Edited July 15, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Vince 49]

Hi @ManicManiac.  I think your experience and mine are probably different, but I was curious so did more tests.  What I found was about two thirds of the time, the wolf jukes back and forth when charging, while they don't the other third.  Even when they juke back and forth, they typically do straighten out for the last 20 to 25 feet.  However, looking at several videos frame by frame, they appeared to cover that last 20 to 25 feet in less than 0.4 sec!  I looked on the web to see if that matched the real world.  It does.  Wolves can travel in short sprints as fast as 40 mph (about 59 fps).  See: Maximum wolf speed.  I've attached another test video at the same site as the previous one.  As you can see, the first wolf jukes back and forth, straightening out for the last 20 feet or so.  The behavior of the second wolf is more like what you described.  This same wolf as in the previous video, this time charges in a nearly straight line, never juking back and forth.  Unfortunately, he doesn't die instantly from the arrow I put in his face.

I've learned a lot from our discussions and the related tests. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Vince 49

[ManicManiac]

@Vince 49

That's some good science.
I was hoping that my methods would work for you.

As I mentioned previously, there is always a bit of randomness in the behavior so I wasn't trying to say it was 100%...  I've just been speaking in general terms (based on the average behavior I've experienced over the years).  Of course, they have been improving the pathfinding over the last few updates, and maybe that's a factor in what you're seeing too.

In either case, the rest of what I mentioned should at least be enough to help folks evade and avoid.  I suppose going toe to toe is meant to be a risky proposition no mater what.  I know the strategy I use has been reliable for me... but I suppose what works for me may not be what works for other folks.  I still wanted to share it though.

 
I did a frame by frame on the second wolf as well (it was super polite of that second wolf to wait patently for it's turn to attack ), it looked like the arrow glanced off the side of the heard (or perhaps flew by/clipped through the ear), but struck it's left side in the hip/back rather than striking the head.  I think that's how it was able to keep pressing through the shot to get you.

Edited July 16, 2020 by ManicManiac

[piddy3825]

On 7/12/2020 at 4:14 AM, hipsu555 said:

I personally would like it if you can find a handcar and reactivate the train tracks in a big effort. Just a long-lasting term which takes you hundreds of days. It would enrich the sandbox gameplay alot. Or reactivating the Signal Hill in PV. You would have to find spare parts hidden all over the world and bring them there, repair the radio station and wait for an extra strong aurora in order to send your call for help. Just something to do exept surviving. 

Hear Hear!!

I've so often walked down those tracks and wished there was a way to repair the damaged areas so a player could use a handcar and quickly travel along the tracks from one area to another.  I suppose when legit modding ie, Hinterland approved, comes of age we might see something like that come to fruition.  I especially like your spare parts idea to repair the radio station.  I bet that would make a good campaign special event if the dev's got behind it. 

[gnomegnine]

i don't know if hinterland will ever approve legit modding, because people are just going to make cheaty mods and after a while that's just going to overwhelm the steam workshop/nexus. it's exactly what happened with the game This War of Mine.

[Vince 49]

@ManicManiac, I looked at the video of the second wolf encounter and you are correct, I almost missed him.  When homing in on a decoy, the wolves travel at something like 4 to 5 miles mph.  This just goes to show that, even when coming straight at you, the 8 to 10 times increase in speed (without decoys) makes hitting them a lot more difficult.  I suppose that playing on stalker with only a bow is the worst case, since there's no chance of scaring the wolf if you miss like there is with a rifle.

I'm surprised that the developers would make such a large increase in difficulty.  When you combine that with the recently (starting with 1.56 Steadfast Ranger) introduced strain system, I'm not sure where they are going.  Based on more than 100 hours in the bush (real world), the strain system is completely unrealistic, discourages exploration, and the constant warnings and alerts add unnecessary stress.  Running the latest TLD, I got a strain collecting sticks in the enclosure in front of the Carter Dam building.  Another got a strain while harvesting game--twice!  On the other hand, there have been a lot of subtle improvements, plus many not so subtle ones like the addition of new areas and the major update to Pleasant Valley.  It seems like the developers giveth and the developers taketh away.  So, since one mostly cancels out the other, I'll stick with my ancient Vigilant Flame on my main computer.

Bye and thanks for the conversation.  I think I'll go rant about something else now. 

 

[piddy3825]

51 minutes ago, gnomegnine said:

i don't know if hinterland will ever approve legit modding, because people are just going to make cheaty mods and after a while that's just going to overwhelm the steam workshop/nexus. it's exactly what happened with the game This War of Mine.

If memory serves, there was some mention of possibly allowing some Hinterland sanctioned modding by Rafael a while back in one of the newsletters.  As I recall, they had a catch phrase for it, something like Community Generated Content, or CGC which was to be some community inspired collabrative content that wouldn't compromise the games integrity.  haven't heard to much about it since though.  So you're probably right, it will be a while before we see any legitimate DLC any time soon. 
They already disable achievements if a player opts for a custom game setting, so I don't see that as issue really.  Anyways I don't think its cheating if I want to change all the deer to look like purple unicorns, do you?  oh snap, that's on my wish list now... 🎠

[Vince 49]

Hi @gnomegnine.  At least for some games, mods can--and have--greatly enhanced them.  The Elder Scroll games Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim, for example, owe much of their popularity to mods.  I believe TLD might benefit from mods.  When you start a new game, you don't have enough clothing to stay warm or the tools and weapons to survive.  However, if you are successful, a time comes when you have sufficient clothes for most conditions and all the tools and weapons available in the game --what do you do then?  Ingenious mods might provide some fun answers.  Surprisingly, mods can be as much fun for the modder as the player.  There's nothing like going to a site where you don't speak the language and watch others enjoying your mod in ways you hadn't imagined.

[hipsu555]

On 7/17/2020 at 5:10 AM, gnomegnine said:

i don't know if hinterland will ever approve legit modding, because people are just going to make cheaty mods and after a while that's just going to overwhelm the steam workshop/nexus. it's exactly what happened with the game This War of Mine.

I dont see a problem with this., workshop/mods are purely optional.
Even right now you can make your game super easy with custom settings, but still alot of people choose the hard modes. Just let everyone pick what he likes. If someone needs to have cheaty mods, why keep it from him? Its just a singleplayer-game and everyone should have fun with his personal favourite setting. 

[Daymo]

There’s a natural progression in difficulty levels.

Pilgrim: timid wildlife that you can eat but will mess you up if you get it wrong.

Teaches you the basics of staying alive.

Voyager: Semi dangerous wildlife that you need to avoid or kill that you can eat.

Teaches you the basics of dealing with angry wildlife and how to kill them.

Stalker: Loads of dangerous wolves that can’t really be eradicated and there’s little benefit of killing them.

Teaches you to be more aware of your surroundings and how to avoid wolves.

Interloper: Everything is out to kill you. Wildlife, weather, terrain, tins of sardines...

You need all the skills you learned on the other difficulties to survive.

 

personally, I find stalker wolves annoying and interloper too stressful so I use custom settings to create a mishmash of the two and turn the weather up to eleven. Custom settings was the greatest gift to TLD players imo.

[Vince 49]

9 hours ago, hipsu555 said:

personally, I find stalker wolves annoying and interloper too stressful so I use custom settings to create a mishmash of the two and turn the weather up to eleven. Custom settings was the greatest gift to TLD players imo.

I agree, although I would like it a lot better if we weren't penalized by not being able to earn feats.

[piddy3825]

38 minutes ago, Vince 49 said:

I agree, although I would like it a lot better if we weren't penalized by not being able to earn feats.

I agree, but only if the custom game settings are harder than the Pilgrim game setting.  There's gotta be a bench mark minimum to achieve feats, right?  Besides, I don't think there's any other game out there right now that allows for feats and achievements while game mods are enabled.  Why should Hinterland be the first to break that convention? 

[ManicManiac]

29 minutes ago, piddy3825 said:

There's gotta be a bench mark minimum to achieve feats, right?

of course... and that benchmark is to be playing on one of the four official difficulties of survival mode (as well as official challenges -- Nomad, Archivist, The Hunted... Etc.).

Edited July 18, 2020 by ManicManiac

[ManicManiac]

1 hour ago, Vince 49 said:

although I would like it a lot better if we weren't penalized by not being able to earn feats.

It's not a punishment ... it just not intended for us to be able to do in the first place (that is to say, earn feats while using custom game settings).
I don't think it's fair for folks to characterize something as being a punishment just because the game doesn't let them do what they want it to.

I think that would kind of be like saying, "Unfair!! Hinterland is punishing players because they won't let our character fly... because I want to be able to fly in this game."   -- I mean, that would sound pretty ridiculous for someone to complain about... right?  I think the whole argument about feats and custom difficulties, sounds equally ridiculous (and I'll explain further below).

If we want to earn feats, we just have to play on one of the official difficulties or the official challenges.  Pure and simple.

I've said it a few times before so I will save myself some typing and just echo it again here: 

On 4/22/2020 at 1:45 AM, ManicManiac said:

In general, and for everyone else reading this post...

I think that the feats were meant to be a reward earned by playing the modes of the game that were intended by Hinterland, and not ones designed/tailored by players.  It's a simple thing to grasp and I think it's more than a fair trade off.

Custom was just a gift to us so that players could tune the game to better suit individual tastes, or to perhaps just add/remove certain nuances.  I think that to have that kind of freedom of play and then still fuss about feat progression is kind of a, "I want my cake and eat it too" sort of situation. 

Folks might not like it, but I think Hinterland's decisions about their game should be respected.

 

Edited July 18, 2020 by ManicManiac

[piddy3825]

On 7/12/2020 at 12:30 PM, Jolan said:

They probably do... but in all honesty, my games list is a lot like my reading list. And I'm not alone in that. I have a large number of games that I've either never started or have only played for a few hours.  There's nothing wrong with them and I will probably go back and finish them, I just wasn't in the mood at the time.  Then there's the games you pick up because they're on sale really cheap, or a friend gave it to you as a gift, etc.

 

Hear Hear!!!

I have dozens of games in my library that have only less than one hour of game play on them.  Why?  Well as you mentioned there are those I got on sale with the intention of playing them but never got around to it and then there are those games where I was bored after 15 minutes of game play.  Others so complex that it took too much time and effort to construct a character just to be completely disappointed in the janky mechanics of the combat/movement system.   

[gotmilkanot]

I play mainly Voyager (have an ongoing 600+ days run) and have recently moved onto Loper while completely skipping Stalker.

From my experience, Voyager wolves are dumbed down in a sense that they're hardly a threat once you're geared. On some days when I'm so bored, I just go on a wolf killing spree head-on with my bow. Even if I miss my shot and get into a struggle, I can get rid of it fast without losing more than 20% of my health.

But I can't say the same for Loper wolves which are more deadly and  have way higher detection range. I've had wolves from Derailment coming to investigate when I was travelling down the hills from Lake Overlook to Camp Office after harvesting the ravaged deer carcass near the cave.

I also lost my first Loper run on day 6 to an aurora wolf near the Dam gate when I had 80% health (but gotta admit I was winded and it was an aurora wolf so oh well). Since then, I've been extra careful with wolves on my second run even if I have my bow and arrows. Maybe I'll wait till I've crafted my bear coat before engaging them head on...

 

[sonics01]

21 hours ago, gotmilkanot said:

Maybe I'll wait till I've crafted my bear coat before engaging them head on...

One of the key point in early loper run is, check around the famous spots for hacksaw, hammer and bedroll. Fast. Then harvest guts from bunnies and deer carcass, and samplings using hacksaw. Cure them, and then rush to FM or DP to craft a knife, hatchet, and arrowheads. When you come back, guts and samplings will be ready. If I'm lucky, I could craft my first bow and arrow within a week. My personal best record was 7th day afternoon. I think some better experts or oldbies would make the first bow and arrow even faster, like 6 days. I usually finish my bow and arrow within 10 days. 

This is one of the reason why I prefer HRV start as a loper, but PV or TWM start is good too. FM start really depends on hammer availability at Milton or BR maintenance shed. 

Remember, early phase of loper is the fight against a time as temperature drop is harsher than other difficulties, and you should finish some crafted coats before day 50. Even with all those coats, after day 50, weather is very cold and harsh.  

[gotmilkanot]

11 hours ago, sonics01 said:

One of the key point in early loper run is, check around the famous spots for hacksaw, hammer and bedroll. Fast. Then harvest guts from bunnies and deer carcass, and samplings using hacksaw. Cure them, and then rush to FM or DP to craft a knife, hatchet, and arrowheads. When you come back, guts and samplings will be ready. If I'm lucky, I could craft my first bow and arrow within a week. My personal best record was 7th day afternoon. I think some better experts or oldbies would make the first bow and arrow even faster, like 6 days. I usually finish my bow and arrow within 10 days. 

This is one of the reason why I prefer HRV start as a loper, but PV or TWM start is good too. FM start really depends on hammer availability at Milton or BR maintenance shed. 

Remember, early phase of loper is the fight against a time as temperature drop is harsher than other difficulties, and you should finish some crafted coats before day 50. Even with all those coats, after day 50, weather is very cold and harsh.  

This run was FM start and I managed to find both the hacksaw and hammer in ML during the first 2 days. By Day 10, I've crafted the bow and arrows, rabbit hat and mittens, and deer pants. Didn't craft the deer boots yet though since I found a pair of work boots at good condition. 

Went on to PV to loot some more matches and get bear hides curing before summiting TWM. Summited TWM on Day 23 but didn't manage to find the second pair of thermal underwear that I'm missing.

Back to PV after looting TWM, bear hides weren't done curing so I was crafting my deer boots at the Barn until I saw a moose in Lonely Homestead while collecting birch bark one day. Not much places to climb to shoot him from safety, managed to drop him with 5 arrows at L2 Archery but of course, I got double broken ribs as well.

Now day 34, bear hides have been just cured so I think I'm gonna craft the bear coat and move onto CH and DP while my moose hide is curing to find my missing thermal underwear before it gets ruined.

[Vince 49]

Hi @piddy3825 and @ManicManiac,  I've read your comments relative to earning feats in custom mode.  "Sorry for not responding earlier.  Sometimes RL gets in the way.

@Daymo said he prefers a custom mode between Stalker and Interloper.  So do I.  I find Stalker not quite challenging enough and Interloper doable, but every day is a depressing struggle.  I understand that if feats were enabled in custom mode, there would be those who would use that to cheat.  However, other than cheating themselves, I don't see the harm to the general community.  It is certainly possible that I've missed something, but I don't see a downside.  I would like to hear from either of you, or any one else, relative to downsides from being able to earn feats in custom mode -- other than it just isn't done.

[piddy3825]

@Vince 49,

basically quoting myself back to you... "I agree, but only if the custom game settings are harder than the Pilgrim game setting.  There's gotta be a bench mark minimum to achieve feats, right?"  and part two of my comment was addressing the use of non-sanctioned  game mods when I further commented "...Besides, I don't think there's any other game out there right now that allows for feats and achievements while game mods are enabled.  Why should Hinterland be the first to break that convention?"

It is a single player game and your "correct" when you say "...other than cheating themselves, I don't see the harm to the general community."  I've always maintained the belief that if I've tweaked a custom game mode setting to be more difficult than the base line minimums otherwise required to complete a feat or challenge, then I should be able to be rewarded as compared to the player who completes a feat or challenge at the lowest difficulty setting which by default is Pilgrim Mode.   So, for example,  if I end up creating an Interloper like environment which actually is harsher and more demanding than the actual Interloper settings and I end up lighting more than 1000 fires in my play through, I feel I should get that firestarter badge.  Same goes for drinking 250 cups of coffee... or snaring 100 rabbits or (insert your feat here) whatever.  

[ManicManiac]

6 hours ago, Vince 49 said:

However, other than cheating themselves, I don't see the harm to the general community.  It is certainly possible that I've missed something, but I don't see a downside.

The statement you make is true.  It is indeed a single player game, and if folks want to cheese or exploit various things/mechanics... the only experience they affect is their own.

However, that's not really the point that I keep having to repeat.  In the case of this subject in particular, I think what's more important has more to do with the intent of the creators.

To me this is kind of like folks complaining about not being able to fly in the game... "What's the harm is just a single player game, and I want my character to be able to fly...  C'mon Hinterland, why can't we fly?  Unfair... I wanna fly, and we should be able to."  I think the answer is pretty simple, Hinterland doesn't intend for the player's character to be able to fly... just like they don't intend for players to be able to earn progress towards feats by using custom settings.

As I've said before: 

On 4/22/2020 at 1:45 AM, ManicManiac said:

In general, and for everyone else reading this post...

I think that the feats were meant to be a reward earned by playing the modes of the game that were intended by Hinterland, and not ones designed/tailored by players.  It's a simple thing to grasp and I think it's more than a fair trade off.

Custom was just a gift to us so that players could tune the game to better suit then or perhaps add or remove certain nuances.  I think that to have that kind of freedom of play and then still fuss about feat progression is kind of a, "I want my cake and eat it too" sort of situation. 

Folks might not like it, but I think Hinterland's decisions about their  game should be respected.

For me, it really is as simple as this: I think Hinterland's decisions about their  game should be respected. 

Granted... I don't ever use feats (because I don't like things that make life easier for the player) so perhaps that's why I have a different perspective.
However, on the other hand: 

On 12/21/2019 at 6:21 AM, ManicManiac said:

I do feel (that at least to some degree) I understand and can appreciate the choices that Hinterland has made with their game... and I think a voice expressing that is not harmful, but provides a counter balance to all the voices who do what to change things based on their own personal preferences.

I don't condemn other's for their opinions, I just don't always agree with them because I try to understand and appreciate why Hinterland makes the choices they do.