Scout Survival Rifle

[Boston123]

So far, the game is awesome. Atmospheric, deep, a true experience different from other "survival" games I have played in the past.

However (and I realize that this is super-Alpha), I would like to hopefully see something like the M6 Scout Survival Rifle eventually implemented. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springfiel ... y_M6_Scout). It is (er, was, being no longer in production, but there are still a lot of them around) a survival rifle commonly used by bush-pilots in Alaska and Canada. It is a "breakdown" style rifle (meaning it can be pulled apart into smaller sections with the removal of a pin) that was commonly stuffed under plane seats for if the pilot had to make an emergency landing/crash.

Usually chambered in .22LR and .410 Bore shotgun, this firearm would not be a gamebreaker. The .22LR could be used for the rabbits that we see running around, and the .410 bore shotgun could be used for birds, or for self-defense from wolves (with varying levels of effectiveness). Neither would be very effective against a deer, unless you get REAL close or get a STUPIDLY lucky shot.

The "standard" model has interior storage space for 15 .22LR bullets and 4 .410 shotshells. It is a break-open, manually-cocked firearm, so you won't be "spray n praying" anything with it.

As for spawn points, maybe have a downed bush-plane randomly spawn somewhere in the maps? Seems realistic, what with the geomagnetic loss of electricity and all, and (unfortunately) bushplane crashes seem to be relatively common even without "apocalyptic scenarios", due to extreme weather patterns and such up in that region.

What does everyone think?

[pikkue]

There is a rifle in the game already, isnt there?

[Boston123]

Yes, and it is a heavy high-caliber bolt action that is not conductive to carrying around, much less being stored in small spaces. You can break down the M6 and store it in a backpack, something that can't be done with the .303. Also, .22LR and .410 shotgun ammunition is small, lightweight, and doesn't take up a large amount of space, the exact opposite of .303 rounds.

Pros of M6

-lightweight

- Small size

Cons of M6

-can only really be used against small animals (rabbits, birds, wolves if lucky)

Pros of "Hunting Rifle" (.303)

-can take down any animal on North America with proper shot placement

Cons of "Hunting Rifle"

-Heavy

-Bulky

-Not conducive to tramping through deep snow

Different firearms are used for different things, just like any other tool. If I shot a rabbit with a .303, I would realistically expect for there to be little left. If I shot a wolf or a deer with a .22LR, I would realistically expect for it to shrug it off (exaggerated, .22LR can kill large animals, just not quickly or cleanly) and either run away or get pissed off.

I have actual survival training, and generally, while you definitely want to be able to "improvise" tool usage if necessary, using the "right tool for the job" is usually much more effective. This is why I carry different knives in my survival kit: the larger sheath knife is for "larger" tasks (cutting wood, breaking ice/windows, etc) and the smaller multi-tool is used for "smaller" tasks (much sharper, for skinning, cutting rope, cloth, fine work, etc)

I've already outlined "why" the M6 (or something like it) would be found in The Long Dark: Bushcraft pilots would usually carry them in case of emergency. That also counts as to where they could be found.

[pikkue]

Emergency equipment for pilots in Canada involve guns?

[Hylander]

Almost everyone in northern Canada carries guns or has them close by when outside - when you have large predators like bears and wolf packs around, and large dangerous game like moose, they are a necessity.

Prospectors and other people who work in the bush are even allowed to get a license to carry hand guns - see this news article for some details.

[elloco999]

While I understand the reasoning for a lighter rifle to be added to the game, a rifle that can only be used on small game would offer very little in TLD IMHO. You need several rabbits a day to keep from starving in TLD, so you'd need to shoot several rabbits per day (can be tricky if every rabbit in the area splits at the first shot). That means you need a good supply of ammo.

1 .303 round can get you 8-9 kg of venison (assuming you don't run the deer into a wolf and then kill the wolf). That's 6400 - 7200 calories. This can last you several days (or much longer if you let yourself starve a bit in the mean time). To get the same amount of calories from rabbits, you need to shoot 11 - 12 rabbits. So you need more than 10 times the amount of ammo to get you the same amount of calories.

I don't think I would bother with shooting rabbits, setting snares is much more effective. So the only use I see for this rifle would be as a self defense weapon against wolves. I think a heavy revolver would be a much better suited weapon for that. A .44 magnum for instance, as that would work against everything except a Canadian brown bear (apparently also called a grizzly, but not the same as the American grizzly?). It would weigh less than a M6 Scout and you wouldn't have to assemble it first after you take it out of you pack.

Emergency equipment for pilots in Canada involve guns?

Yes, if you need to survive in the Canadian bush after a crash, something to fend off predators and to shoot something to eat would be a good idea don't you think? The old Alaskan state laws even required pilots to carry a fire arm, but that has been changed.

[EternityTide]

Well if you crashing down in bear country, you aren't gonna take on a fully grown grizzly with a penknife, now are you?

I'm aware that a .22 won't take down a bear, but it would make the bear think before attacking (unless it enrages it further, either way though, you're kinda screwed)

[pikkue]

Emergency equipment for pilots in Canada involve guns?

Yes, if you need to survive in the Canadian bush after a crash, something to fend off predators and to shoot something to eat would be a good idea don't you think?

Most probably.

Thanks god we are civilised over here.

Nevertheless, having more guns in the game would have an huge impact on the balance. TlD is no hunting simulation, it lives from the necessity to play wisely, to elaborate and try out methods which require thinking rather than shooting imo.

Aswell, this is the 100th moa-gunz discussion I see around here, may it be a bow or any other xyz gun. I hope this update is coming soon so ppl will spend time on playing again, including me, reading here makes me moody from time to time (:

[coryduran]

I do think that if you included something like the rifle being described, it could be useful assuming Hinterland has any plans to add other prey perhaps larger than rabbit but smaller than wolves? I'm not familiar with the flora and fauna of the region so I'm not sure what that would be.

It could also be useful purely as a defensive weapons (for example if it can kill, or at least get a wolf to run away, it can be a lightweight gun you take with you on scavenging runs or when transporting to a new base, so you aren't weighted down by your heavy gun, but defend yourself if need be).

I do know that the developers have mentioned they aren't trying to make guns a large part of the game. That being said, if this is a realistic aspect of being in the canadian wilderness (I know it's a big reason the rifle we have now is in the game), then perhaps they would consider adding it? As the OP mentioned if these really are kind of standard among bush pilots/people living in this area, then it would seem it should be findable at some point (love the idea of finding a downed plane somewhere, even if it doesn't have a gun it could have bandages/antiseptic other survival stuff you'd expect to find on such, and it makes sense because I doubt our character is the only bush pilot flying on the day that this event occurred)

[The_Hawk35]

Ummm a 410 slug will easily take down a deer, and if at close range can take down a bear. I think this would be an amazing weapon to add to the game.

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[Boston123]

Emergency equipment for pilots in Canada involve guns?

Yes, if you need to survive in the Canadian bush after a crash, something to fend off predators and to shoot something to eat would be a good idea don't you think?

Most probably.

Thanks god we are civilised over here.

Nevertheless, having more guns in the game would have an huge impact on the balance. TlD is no hunting simulation, it lives from the necessity to play wisely, to elaborate and try out methods which require thinking rather than shooting imo.

Aswell, this is the 100th moa-gunz discussion I see around here, may it be a bow or any other xyz gun. I hope this update is coming soon so ppl will spend time on playing again, including me, reading here makes me moody from time to time (:

Well, to be frank, you also live in a relatively urbanized nation, where the chances of you encountering a wild animal like a wolf or a bear are (again, relatively) extremely low. The Boreal Forests of Alaska and northern Canada are a WHOLE different ballgame, to use an American expression.

Like I have said, breakdown survival rifles like the one I linked to in my original post are practically standard equipment for almost all bush-pilots in the region the game takes place in. It isn't like I am asking for a Barret .50 sniper rifle with Night-vision optics and tracer rounds.

[Boston123]

While I understand the reasoning for a lighter rifle to be added to the game, a rifle that can only be used on small game would offer very little in TLD IMHO. You need several rabbits a day to keep from starving in TLD, so you'd need to shoot several rabbits per day (can be tricky if every rabbit in the area splits at the first shot). That means you need a good supply of ammo.

1 .303 round can get you 8-9 kg of venison (assuming you don't run the deer into a wolf and then kill the wolf). That's 6400 - 7200 calories. This can last you several days (or much longer if you let yourself starve a bit in the mean time). To get the same amount of calories from rabbits, you need to shoot 11 - 12 rabbits. So you need more than 10 times the amount of ammo to get you the same amount of calories.

I don't think I would bother with shooting rabbits, setting snares is much more effective. So the only use I see for this rifle would be as a self defense weapon against wolves. I think a heavy revolver would be a much better suited weapon for that. A .44 magnum for instance, as that would work against everything except a Canadian brown bear (apparently also called a grizzly, but not the same as the American grizzly?). It would weigh less than a M6 Scout and you wouldn't have to assemble it first after you take it out of you pack.

Emergency equipment for pilots in Canada involve guns?

Yes, if you need to survive in the Canadian bush after a crash, something to fend off predators and to shoot something to eat would be a good idea don't you think? The old Alaskan state laws even required pilots to carry a fire arm, but that has been changed.

1) In real life, and in my survival experience, while setting snares is an effective way of capturing small game, it generally isn't the most "efficient". Most snares have a very low rate of successful capture, so you need to set up a whole bunch in order to make them "effective". For example, on a training-outing, I set up three "trap-lines" of 6 snares each, for rabbit and squirrel, out overnight. The next morning, I had 13 traps sprung, with only two "caught" rabbits. I had a group of 7 people, so they didn't go very far in terms of food.

Generally, trapping is a "passive" form of food-procurement, in the sense that it doesn't take any energy from you (except for the energy needed to set them up and check them) to work. However, it has a varying level of return. Hunting, on the other hand, is "active", where it burns a lot of energy, but the returns are more immediate and effective. IRL, I would both set up snares (multiple traplines worth), AND hunt for both large and small game in a different area entirely. The M6 weighs 3 3/4 lbs total, so you could feasibly carry the M6 "stowed" in a backpack AND the Hunting Rifle at the same time. See a rabbit? Pull out and set up the M6. See a deer? Raise the Hunting Rifle.

2) Then the food values for both deer, rabbit and wolf need to be changed. In general, "survival games" have a habit of ignoring the actual amount of food available on an animal, by having you only able to eat the muscle meat. In actuality, there is a decent amount of "food value" available on a rabbit: eat the fat, eat the "organ meats" (liver, kidneys, various intestines, heart, brain. etc), make broth from the bones (and, more importantly, the marrow), eat the bones after they are boiled, etc. By ignoring these food sources, and eating only the lean muscle flesh, you are essentially underselling the food-value of every animal, not just rabbits.

Not that I am disagreeing with you with regards to deer vs rabbits. I am simply saying that rabbits are more "effective" than you think. I've eaten almost an entire rabbit before IRL (everything except for the pelt and various intestines I didn't want) during a New England winter (which, to be honest, is not nearly as cold as Alaska/Canada). That one rabbit kept me going for an entire day of hiking up mountains, through snow, with gear on my back. Point being, you deliberately hunt deer, you hunt rabbits when you see them, but don't go out of your way

3) As for self-defense, I know several guys that live up in the region that carry large-caliber revolvers like that. They, however, are more of an "OH SHIT BEAR kind of gun, instead of something used for survival purposes. The M6 is stashed under the seat of a truck or a plane for when it is actually needed, not carried out for self-defense 24/7. And, don't forget, large-frame revolvers like that are HEAVY, and so are the bullets, without either the "three points of contact" = ease of use ,that a rifle has, nor the actual hunting uses (NOTE: some people do hunt with revolvers, but they are specialized for it)

[The_Hawk35]

This is part of the reason I'd like the option of bringing game back. If I'm in a survival situation I'm scraping the fat boiling the bones, etc of everything.

I'm eating the brains and the guts for the fat and vitamins.

[pikkue]

Well, to be frank, you also live in a relatively urbanized nation, where the chances of you encountering a wild animal like a wolf or a bear are (again, relatively) extremely low. The Boreal Forests of Alaska and northern Canada are a WHOLE different ballgame, to use an American expression.

Like I have said, breakdown survival rifles like the one I linked to in my original post are practically standard equipment for almost all bush-pilots in the region the game takes place in. It isn't like I am asking for a Barret .50 sniper rifle with Night-vision optics and tracer rounds.

That may be, tho I think different about guns in general. Another discussion it is

Coming back to the game itself:

Just because something is fact in real life, it does not mean it has to be implemented.

There is a gun in tld, as mentioned, and with it you''re able to kill any animal crossing your way. It is heavy, it has to be. It forces you to decide between goods like food drink sleepback, general stuff, or the gun.

The reason behind this is to play with your brain once again.

A light gun would equalize this totally because suddenly you can go outside, carrying practically everything, having a much lowered risk of starving (f.e.).

[Cosmoline]

The setting is all about off season rental cabins and a few dead locals. In that context there would be a lot of .22 rifles around, though the "scout" is not too common. I've never seen one as a cabin or meat gun. You're more likely to see beater Remingtons or maybe a nice CZ 452. As far as .410's, the most common by far is the "snake charmer" single shot you'll find on just about every halibut boat. And you could certainly find many in Canada, as well as many "Topper 88" style 12 ga single shots.

But what would it add to the game? The .22 might allow you to do more rabbit hunting, and in theory deer poaching. But the game is pretty rudimentary when it comes to firearm mechanics and it's nice to have one that isn't about the weaponry. It really seems like something for a hunting mod.

[Boston123]

Well, to be frank, you also live in a relatively urbanized nation, where the chances of you encountering a wild animal like a wolf or a bear are (again, relatively) extremely low. The Boreal Forests of Alaska and northern Canada are a WHOLE different ballgame, to use an American expression.

Like I have said, breakdown survival rifles like the one I linked to in my original post are practically standard equipment for almost all bush-pilots in the region the game takes place in. It isn't like I am asking for a Barret .50 sniper rifle with Night-vision optics and tracer rounds.

That may be, tho I think different about guns in general. Another discussion it is

Coming back to the game itself:

Just because something is fact in real life, it does not mean it has to be implemented.

There is a gun in tld, as mentioned, and with it you''re able to kill any animal crossing your way. It is heavy, it has to be. It forces you to decide between goods like food drink sleepback, general stuff, or the gun.

The reason behind this is to play with your brain once again.

A light gun would equalize this totally because suddenly you can go outside, carrying practically everything, having a much lowered risk of starving (f.e.).

I disagree. I hold the opinion that if a game is going to tote itself on "realistic survival", then removing or disallowing items/mechanics that would realistically be implemented, all based on perceived balance, then the developers are being shortsighted at best and hypocritical at worst. This is why I have become disillusioned with Day Z.

From a real world perspective, gear actually has little effect on survival. Personal survival skills are more important, and the "will to survive" has the greatest effect. Give a "newbie" all the survival gear he could ever need, and he still probably will get scared, freak out, and give up. Throw someone experienced into a survival situation, even with little/no equipment, and they will (probably) come through. All gear does is make the actual survival process easier.

For me, a large part of the "will to survive" exists in the form of improvisation, problem-solving skills, and critical thinking. Instead of "I don't have any tools to skin animals or cut wood", it should instead be "What can I do to make the things I need to facilitate my survival?". If I need a knife, I (in real life) would go to the nearest window in a building/car I don't take shelter in, break it, and use the broken glass as an improvised knife. If I need a fishhook, I would make a gorge out of a stick, metal, bone, etc. If I don't have a rifle, I would make a spear (bows are actually very difficult to make [i've made several], and the bows that are appropriate to make in a survival situation are really only powerful/accurate enough for small game at short range) or make deadfalls to trap deer/wolves/bear. If I am cold, I am going to rip the blankets and sheets off the beds and use them as robes. Granted, all of this takes energy (in the form of calories lost), so you have to examine it from a risk/benefit standpoint, but my point still stands: Do not limit my survival chances, mechanics or skills in the name of arbitrary balance or specific styles of gameplay.

Don't say "we already have 1 gun (which is really only effective for large game), we don't need another". The advantages of the light survival rifle (light weight, pack-ability, etc) are set off (arguably to the disadvantage side, really) by the limited range (survival rifles have short barrels, limiting range and bullet/shot power), slow firing rate, and applicability to really only small game.

Also, if we are downed bush pilots, why don't we already have some survival gear? All bush-craft planes have a survival kit (which, funnily enough, survival rifles are often a part of), containing first aid materials, food, a stove/firetebs, survival blankets, etc. Is the reason we don't have this equipment all due to artificial balance or railroaded gameplay? Because having some energy bars, a single-use blanket, pack of matches, and a small amount of water isn't really going to affect long-term survival, even only a few days, in the environment TLD takes place in. Enough stuff to give newbies a chance to make it to shelter, not ensuring they survive.

[pikkue]

Hi there again.

We agree on several points. Survival is a perfomance of mind rather then gear. Thats why another rifle is unnecessary, with the one in the game you can hunt anything. Apart that, feel free to shoot something with the lee enfield on 10 meters. Nearly impossible.

A rifle for small game is redundant.

Second more important point:

For the sake of playability, your "survival chances", which still seem to rely on that on gun rather then the good thoughts you presented before, are of cause limited to balance. The point is:

TlD was never claimed to be a simulation. Realistic, yes. But only to a certain extend.

It's a profound part of the concept to get along with what is given. And still, there is a gun which covers all needs, also of tose who apparently bring up the demand for a second one.

And as Cosmoline mentioned, there may be even more appropriate guns to implement first, not my field, cant comment.

Playability has to be the higher position here.

Tho I will agree to one more thing:

Specific game styles shall not be prefered by the mechanics.

Thanks for your constructive reply, feels good when new ppl are ready to discuss.

[ChillPlayer]

I really don't know why anyone would want more rifles in this game:

http://hinterlandforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=3753

The type of rifle is debateable, which I leave to the pros, but for the sake of not making this game a complete joke, please don't add more rifles

[EternityTide]

the thing is that multiple rifles exist in the game already. A lighter smaller calibre rifle would make it interesting when you can only find .303 rounds. Likewise when you can only find .22 rounds for your lee enfield.

[elloco999]

@Boston123 (not going to copy the posts as that will turn this intoone huge post)

I agree with everything you say. In real life it would make sense to have a light low caliber weapon like a .22LR rifle to hunt small game. But I thought we were talking about TLD and in TLD (as it is now) it doesn't make much sense to me. Rabbits yield way too little to hunt them actively, so you would indeed only shoot one if you just happen to come across one and have the time to hunt it. Especially with the wolfs being attracted to raw meat, shooting 1 rabbit to get 1 - 1.5kg of raw meat is not something I would do unless I was going to eat the meat raw right away. Or possibly if I already had a fire going or I'm going to make a fire anyway. But I just don't see enough options to use it to carry it around. So if an option would present itself, I would probably not have the rifle with me anyway.

Using a .22LR to try to fend off a bear would most likely only enrage a bear. So I would probably not try it. Well, to be honest, if a .22LR rifle was all I had and a bear was charging me I'd probably instinctively try it anyway. Or run, but neither is a very good option if anything I've read about bears is true. Your best option would probably be to play dead, especially with the black bears we have in TLD (grizzly's are much more likely to attack a human).

Anyway, unless small animals like rabbits are going to yield more calories in future updates, I don't think I would use a light rifle much if at all. I usually don't carry the bedroll because I think it weighs too much for the functionality it gives me so I don't see myself walking around with a rifle that is twice as heavy only to shoot a rabbit every one in a while if the conditions are just right. I do think a light rifle could have it's place in TLD but not in the TLD we have now.

As for self defence, a "OH SHIT, BEAR/ WOLF" kinda situation is exactly what I have in mind for a revolver. A .44 magnum revolver is indeed heavy but still lighter than the M6 Scout (1.6kg vs 2.1kg) and would be a lot more effective in stopping a bear. A .357 would be better than a .22LR and a revolver in that caliber weighs around 1.1kg. Now that is something I might carry around despite of the weight.

I disagree. I hold the opinion that if a game is going to tote itself on "realistic survival", then removing or disallowing items/mechanics that would realistically be implemented, all based on perceived balance, then the developers are being shortsighted at best and hypocritical at worst.

Well TLD is still a game, not a simulation. In games, gameplay trumps realism every time. I'm all for creating the most realistic survival game ever, but not if the result would not be fun to play. Or if it takes for every to make it. If everything that is possible IRL needs to be implemented in TLD, it will be many many years before we will be able to play the final game. If ever.

As for where our bush pilot survival gear is, it's still in the plane. But where is the plane you ask? Good question... But I agree that we could start with a little more gear without making things too easy.

[autonomous]

The reason I can see to add more firearms and ammo types is to force the player to pick and choose and to better represent the diversity of guns out there. Whether you want to add other WW2 surplus rifles or shotguns or revolvers or modern all weather stainless steel and polymer guns the biggest problem I see with the way it is now is that 303 Lee Enfield is not the only rifle owned by Canadians. If you surveyed 100 Canadians and 10 of them own firearms they probably don't own 10 303 Enfields.

[LTD_CooKie]

Some sort of shotgun could be useful, for hunting rabbits and birds. Plentiful ammo, but low effectiveness against wolves and deer, and only getting meat (no fur) from shot rabbits could be a way to balance it out.