A Few Dead Men

[Drifter Man]

22 hours ago, Dan_ said:

I like how you casually go about without mentioning breaking records. 

I really don't know if I broke one...

21 hours ago, BareSkin said:

Sorry about that my reporting is getting sloppy, it's not just the typos.

21 hours ago, BareSkin said:

Just curious for science in case you have an organized trapping: did the snares that broke together were crafted together?

Unfortunately no... or, fortunately. The place is so cold I don't have time to think about organizing my snares on the rabbit run. I took a tiny bit of freezing damage today just from visiting the rabbit run that is right at the cabin!

21 hours ago, BareSkin said:

There Shall be a "Number 10", a man from the Styx, that will end up retiring in the living world, for His love of cooked rabbit meat.

Your Aramaic is improving!

[Drifter Man]

Deadman 10 / Day 53-56

More days pass, busy but lacking any dramatic events. I'm waiting for cooking level 5, which would allow me to eat wolves. Speaking of wolves, they do appear, but I'm usually way too occupied to care. Whenever the weather is nice, which isn't often, I'm out cooking or looking for sticks.

Then, on the night from Day 56 to Day 57, something unexpected happens:

CF should be disabled in the custom setting. I've spent huge, huge amounts of time indoors during this run as well as with previous deadmen - Deadman 3 comes to mind, locked up in PV for days by blizzards. CF risk never appeared. In fact, I've been outdoors quite a bit over the past few days, mostly cooking. What's going on here?

[Dan_]

If I'm not mistaken there is a grace period of 50 days in Voyageur for CF, perhaps deadman has the same settings?

Anyway, this sucks, another end game mountain to climb. 

[BareSkin]

1 hour ago, Drifter Man said:

The place is so cold I don't have time to think about organizing my snares on the rabbit run. I took a tiny bit of freezing damage today just from visiting the rabbit run that is right at the cabin!

If you're still placing them near the trees uphill, an advice I might give: the snares work even very close to Trappers, at the edge of the "grass". I didn't dare to try closer than that.

[StrayCat]

3 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

CF should be disabled in the custom setting. I've spent huge, huge amounts of time indoors during this run as well as with previous deadmen - Deadman 3 comes to mind, locked up in PV for days by blizzards. CF risk never appeared. In fact, I've been outdoors quite a bit over the past few days, mostly cooking. What's going on here?

I guess, just another bug from the custom settings. Custom mode is notorious for not working as intended, and Hinterland is aware of it :
http://www.hinterlandforums.com/forums/topic/21321-milton-mailbag-dispatch-12/
>>> 4th question.

[Drifter Man]

22 hours ago, Dan_ said:

If I'm not mistaken there is a grace period of 50 days in Voyageur for CF, perhaps deadman has the same settings?

This is the most likely explanation - I haven't thought about that. Disabling CF in custom mode means delaying it by 50 days. Like @StrayCat said, the custom settings aren't straightforward.

22 hours ago, BareSkin said:

If you're still placing them near the trees uphill, an advice I might give: the snares work even very close to Trappers, at the edge of the "grass". I didn't dare to try closer than that.

Good pointer - thanks, I was placing them on the top of the small hill/terrain wave at the edge of the map. Probably too far.

Anyway - I think I have a plan but one thing is certain: Trapper's Homestead is an untenable position for a post-day 50 Deadman. Enough fuel for cooking, not enough for battling cabin fever. Cabin fever requires something like 5 hours a day outdoors, right? I can only get enough firewood for maybe 2 hours a day. There's no open cave nearby. I'll have to move out.

[Guest jeffpeng]

Just now, Drifter Man said:

Anyway - I think I have a plan but one thing is certain: Trapper's Homestead is an untenable position for a post-day 50 Deadman. Enough fuel for cooking, not enough for battling cabin fever. Cabin fever requires something like 5 hours a day outdoors, right? I can only get enough firewood for maybe 2 hours a day. There's no open cave nearby. I'll have to move out.

So basically you need a position with 2 rabbit spawns, an indoor shelter, an open cave and a lot of firewood or are the deep ends of open caves warm enough so you can stay in them without lighting a fire? Sorry, no idea how cold deadman really gets on day 50.

[Ruruwawa]

1 hour ago, Drifter Man said:

This is the most likely explanation - I haven't thought about that. Disabling CF in custom mode means delaying it by 50 days. Like @StrayCat said, the custom settings aren't straightforward.

In the deadman code cabin fever is actually enabled.  I just thought that meant the custom settings are wrong.   But it looks like it CF ON in custom settings means voyageur style.  Good discovery!

[BareSkin]

3 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

 Sorry, no idea how cold deadman really gets on day 50.

As cold as can be. For the end of open caves, I'm not sure of their status regarding Cabin Fever, which is the main problem.

2 hours ago, Ruruwawa said:

In the deadman code cabin fever is actually enabled.  I just thought that meant the custom settings are wrong.   But it looks like it CF ON in custom settings means voyageur style.  Good discovery!

Had the same problem with my Sleepwalker, I was surprised every day about not getting it. And just when I though I was just too good to get CF...

[Guest jeffpeng]

1 hour ago, BareSkin said:

As cold as can be. For the end of open caves, I'm not sure of their status regarding Cabin Fever, which is the main problem.

The cold section is safe. No CF there, and you can sleep there while being affected. It's basically considered "outside". The warm section counts as indoors, so it's not and you can't. The convenient thing is that you don't have to sleep in a different place. Just move your bedroll and keep a fire burning every few nights.

The though process is .... if equipment + bedroll are enough to sleep in the warm part, only cooking every few nights in the cold part could work well enough. Not to prevent cabin fever, but simply living through it every few days. So instead of cooking every day, stockpile food when being afflicted with cabin fever.

The real problem is to find a place that meets the above criteria. The ravine has two rabbit runs (actually three) but they are not really close to each other. Plus firewood will become a problem without being able to kill a fir limb every few days, even when strolling to the dam every few days. The Milton Basin has two rabbit runs and ample firewood, but also two wolves of which one might actually run into one of the rabbit runs.

If a "real" indoor shelter is needed I don't think that place exists. And eventually it will be needed with degrading clothes and bedrolls. Maaaaaaybe Draft Dodgers, but that's quite a climb to the cave plus... well PV weather. --edit: Plus making it there in the first place .... geezuz.

Edited November 14, 2018 by jeffpeng
Nope, Draft Dodger's is a bad idea, nvm

[Dan_]

6 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

Anyway - I think I have a plan but one thing is certain: Trapper's Homestead is an untenable position for a post-day 50 Deadman. Enough fuel for cooking, not enough for battling cabin fever. Cabin fever requires something like 5 hours a day outdoors, right? I can only get enough firewood for maybe 2 hours a day. There's no open cave nearby. I'll have to move out.

I'd suggest the cave above the rope from the old bear lair in ML, there is a warm cave with a single deer spawn and a bunny grove. There are no wolves in sight. Firewood is not great sticks-wise, but you can always rope down and grab the sticks behind the lake cabins and then warm up at the former bear cave (or one of the cabins)  before climbing the rope back. You can also get there through a footpath that runs left of the ceiling boulder of Dave's quiet clearing, the wolves that patrol near the camp office might intervene.

There is also... the Ravine, which I'm partial to. Two deer hunting spots nearby, a bountiful of rabbits and of course, plenty of wolves as well. 

From my experience, the warm part of the caves are considered outdoor locations. I lived 100 days in them with one of my long term interloper survivors at FM, not a single mention of CF. 

[NardoLoopa]

10 minutes ago, Dan_ said:

From my experience, the warm part of the caves are considered outdoor locations. I lived 100 days in them with one of my long term interloper survivors at FM, not a single mention of CF. 

This is also my experience as well; I sleep in the "indoor" part of the cave to cure CF.  (at least I think I did).

I'm still a bit foggy on the case where my bedroll is in the "indoor" part, and my fire is in the "outdoor" part, whether I get the Outside fire bonus.  I think I do; maybe it just wasn't that cold to really be pronounced.

[Dan_]

6 hours ago, NardoLoopa said:

I'm still a bit foggy on the case where my bedroll is in the "indoor" part, and my fire is in the "outdoor" part, whether I get the Outside fire bonus.  I think I do; maybe it just wasn't that cold to really be pronounced.

Many people have mentioned this strategy to me and I said it doesn't work. I tested it again to see if it still applies and took some screenshots, the game calculates the player's position to determine wheter a fire is inside or outside and apply the bonus,  I built a fire by the outside edge of the lake overlook cave, then slept:

Fire has 2h7min:

Slept 1h with the bedroll on the outside part and it now has 1h37min of firetime left. ( 30 min bonus, firestarting 5 ).

Moved the bedroll around, firetime is now 1h34min just before sleeping:

After sleeping with the bedroll on the warm side it now has only 34min, took 1 exact hour.

TLDR: It's worth building the fire on the edge standing on the inside part, you can mitigate freezing damage while you're building the fire, but you need to be on the outside (cold part) for the time bonus to take effect. The games takes the player position in consideration, not the fire position. 

Stay warm! 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Dan_

[NardoLoopa]

That's pretty damn convincing.  Thanks for taking the time to publish proof.  I'm sold.

[Drifter Man]

22 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

So basically you need a position with 2 rabbit spawns, an indoor shelter, an open cave and a lot of firewood or are the deep ends of open caves warm enough so you can stay in them without lighting a fire? Sorry, no idea how cold deadman really gets on day 50.

Caves are survivable for me. The thing with caves is that, similar to Mountaineer's Hut, they don't get colder over time. Their temperature bonus increases, so they are as warm on Day 50 as on Day 1. With ~18°C clothing, you're fine on non-blizzard nights.

19 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

The cold section is safe. No CF there, and you can sleep there while being affected. It's basically considered "outside". The warm section counts as indoors, so it's not and you can't.

This is what I'm not sure about - I've spent a good amount of time in caves and never had this problem (like @Dan_ says). But maybe it's just that once you are in a cave, you tend to go outside more often.

Anyway, I'm not happy about being forced out into a cave in any case, but I may not have a choice.

19 hours ago, jeffpeng said:

The ravine has two rabbit runs (actually three) but they are not really close to each other.

The Ravine's rabbit runs have very low yield. Deadman 3 tested it there and died of starvation.

@Dan_, your findings about fire duration bonus correspond to mine. What matters specifically is the player's air temperature value (without the effect of fire). So if you are in the warm part of the cave, or in a snow shelter, the same fire in the same location will burn faster that if you are out in the cold. The location of the fire does not matter. Even the indoor fire in Mountaineer's Hut can receive bonus if it gets cold enough inside.

[Drifter Man]

Deadman 10 / Day 57

Cabin fever risk starts at 33% and grows at about 6-7% per hour during the night. I prepare my equipment and supplies - matches, flare shells, painkillers, prybar, all the things I kept conveniently stored in the cabin and that I'll now have to drop on the ground in some stupid cave. I go to sleep again with about 65% CF risk and wake up at about the same level in late morning - I still have no clue how this works. Actually, my cabin fever risk drops for a while after that before starting to grow again. But I'd been indoors every morning for the past 6 days.

Anyway, I don't care much - no matter how the mechanic exactly works, I have to leave today. I repair my clothes, then go outside and collect my snares from the nearby run, leaving the dead rabbits in place this time. Two snares are broken. With a spare piece of reclaimed wood I have, I make three new ones, ending up with eight. I don't go back to the other run at Max's, where my other 5 snares are deployed. Maybe I'll regret it later.

I sleep some more until late afternoon, CF risk still about constant in the sixties. Then I move out, use the sun to start a maglens fire at the cave, make warm tea plus a bit of water, and light a 100% torch I've been keeping with me from TWM, I believe. The torch guides me through the cave. Coal has not respawned.

On the other end I drink the tea (still warm) and head out into a colorful sunset over Mountain Town. The winds are still, weather is with me today. This is the end of my retirement, which lasted 25 days.

I approach the rope with a ton of smellies on me and after I'm done collecting sticks, I check the bottom end. The wolf isn't around, I'll be safe. I drop extra rabbit meat to get under 30 kg and climb down. I still have enough temp bar to place my snares (all eight at one run) and collect some sticks. There's coal in the cave, about 5 pieces.

My last piece of cloth goes to repair my thermal underwear. My temperature bonus is now 18°C. I sleep safely in the warm part of the cave until the morning. At sunrise, felt temperature is minus 0°C without the bedroll and cabin fever risk is gone.

Edited November 15, 2018 by Drifter Man

[Guest jeffpeng]

Well, kinda interesting. What I can confirm is that once you have CF you cannot sleep in the warm parts of caves. But obviously being in them doesn't add to the risk. Maybe I'll test that theory again once Kermit 7 makes his retirment on Monolith Lake.

[BareSkin]

2 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

This is the end of my retirement, which lasted 25 days.

Wasn't retirement specifically designed for the older to travel a bit ?

[Dan_]

I try to keep caves tidy but it's really awful to organize your stuff in them. Hell, I'd drag a side table or even the smaller shelving units to make a cave feel more homely. These are the mods I could get behind, when mod support does arrive, of course. 

The CF calculation is a trailing average ( or moving average ), which is simple enough when you can see the whole data from the series, which we unfortunately can't.  Many people (myself included) have felt bamboozled when they sleep outside and the CF risk doesn't go down, but it's just a function of the farthest data point moving in to a period where you were mostly inside, so the trade off nullifies being outside lately. I've had spots where I slept inside 6 hours and the CF risk didn't move up. 

I agree that the CF mechanic is really counterintuitive, though. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by Dan_

[Ruruwawa]

3 hours ago, Dan_ said:

I agree that the CF mechanic is really counterintuitive, though.

This is certainly true, but the same could be said of most other TLD afflictions. 

Cabin Fever risk rises when the previous 6 days had, on average, fewer than 5 1/2 hours spent outdoors.  More precisely, since cabin fever risk is recalculated every hour, when fewer than 31 hours (~22%) of the previous 144 hours were spent outdoors.  The 22% number comes from @Timber Wolf's testing.

Short term rises and drops in risk are just trading an outdoor hour six days ago for an indoor one today (rises), or the reverse (drops).

Edited November 15, 2018 by Ruruwawa

[BareSkin]

I like CF for the mere reason you have to think about it before contracting risk. Plan ahead. Being outdoors has only one guaranteed effect: CF risk can't increase when outdoors. You want to enter hibernation? Fine, but be ready to pay it later. Cabin Fever has the danger of short-term easiness traded for later difficulties. A bit like a subprime credit revolving.

[Dan_]

Fantastic data @Ruruwawa, thanks for sharing! 

[Drifter Man]

16 hours ago, Ruruwawa said:

Short term rises and drops in risk are just trading an outdoor hour six days ago for an indoor one today (rises), or the reverse (drops).

What I couldn't explain was that CF risk was dropping while I was indoors. At best it should stay constant... but whatever

[Drifter Man]

Deadman 10 / Day 58

Morning: two rabbits, one broken snare. Blizzard. Cooking the rabbits and making about 8 liters of water until it is warm enough in the back of the cave. Then reduce the fire to torches and sleep for a bit.

Late afternoon: once the blizzard ends, I check for the wolf by loading up on rabbit carcasses in the cave, but it doesn't come to me. I climb up the rope and fetch the extra rabbit meat I dropped there yesterday to save weight before the climb. A short run for sticks at sunset, then processing torches into firewood.

The situation is stable. I plan to reach cooking level 5 here, then move up to Milton and have a chat with the townsfolk.

This is now my very thoughtfully organized stash of supplies:

[Drifter Man]

15 hours ago, BareSkin said:

I like CF for the mere reason you have to think about it before contracting risk. Plan ahead. Being outdoors has only one guaranteed effect: CF risk can't increase when outdoors. You want to enter hibernation? Fine, but be ready to pay it later. Cabin Fever has the danger of short-term easiness traded for later difficulties. A bit like a subprime credit revolving.

I've learned to live with it, but nothing can make me like it... I never wanted hibernation. I just wanted to stay indoors when I feel like staying indoors.