Let's Talk Bullets.

[Eranderil Nix Grey]

So. I think it could be interesting to add an ammo press for crafting bullets. Casings and Bullet heads could be crafted at a forge using scrap metal, while black powder could be crafted by hand, using Saltpeter and Charcoal. This would require adding Saltpeter to the game, which could be found in caves (for simplicity). Crafting bullets would be a process, and require a significant amount of set up. Then the travel and use of the ammo bench. In Interloper, the building housing the bench could be collapsed and inaccessible. This would make the rifle more sustainable. The ammo produced would be "Handmade Ammo" and be less accurate than standard. Or just keep it the same as regular, for simplicity sake. Thoughts?

[Boston123]

1) The rifle in-game uses modern smokeless powder. While bolt-action rifles are more robust than other, automatic firearms, they still cannot just switch between smokeless powder and black powder willy-nilly.

2) How are you going to forge out a bullet to exacting specifications on a forge? I'm talking sub-millimeter specifications. Anything less will turn your firearm into a pipe-bomb.

Not to mention that bullets are not made from steel, for many reasons. Fire a steel bullet through a rifle and chances are you will strip the rifling from the barrel.

3) Modern cartridges will not fire without primers.

4) Bottle-necked brass cartridges can not be reloaded that well. The metal isn't as robust as a straight-walled case.

5) Handmade ammunition can, and actually usually is, more accurate and powerful than military-surplus ball ammunition. That is, of course, if you are using a proper loading bench and proper materials.

[JAFO]

14 hours ago, Eranderil Nix Grey said:

Thoughts?

It's something that's been requested many times. There are some good discussions on the subject, if you check back through Wish List threads.

Hinterland are very aware of the idea.. so far there's been not so much as a hint that they're considering it.

[Mroz4k]

Thank you, @Boston123 for pointing out all the facts that I had an issue with. There is so much about this idea that just makes zero sense at all. And I know there are some people who wish to see game logic in TLD, I dont. It would completedly kill the immersion. Besides, the TLD prides itself being one of the most realistic survival games out there, would be a shame to kill that so blatantly by making the bullets out of super simple materials.

Also, the issue is that rifle bullets are supposed to be rare, and limited. Though you can get more through beachcombing, I´ve heard.

I dont want to see bullets for rifle craftable. Tradeable with NPCs, maybe, but not craftable. It should remain hard-to-get resource.

On the other hand, I would not mind if the game had a Musket or black powder rifle in the game, which would utilize forgeable bullets and craftable black gunpowder.

By the way, by combining saltpeper and charcoal, you would get powder which looks like gun powder but does nothing but burn. You are missing sulphur - black gunpowder is on average 70% sulphur, 20% saltpepper and 10% carbon, in this case charcoal. All of these are common household items - sulphur has been used to treat fungi infectations for years, saltpepper is used to conserve meat, which would be another use of it in TLD, I reccon. So, I see these items more like loot from house raiding.

I suppose both saltpepper and sulphur could be found in caves, though not in the same ones. Sulphur chunks are often found in coal mines. Saltpepper, however, is more often found as a white powdery substance on rocks close to rivers. But that source would be hidden beneath the snow in TLD, and washed away by it.

And finally, coal dust would work much, much better then charcoal.

[Eranderil Nix Grey]

So, generally I based this off of the wiki article on gunpowder. My thoughts are to have the ammo press far from any forges- making bullets would be a massive undertaking. With proper tools you can refine bullet shape at a reloading bench. So you can get them to exacting specifications. Scrap Metal in game is much like cloth- it is not any specific type of metal, but rather a mix. You can not tell me that all the parts of a can opener are the same as the parts used to fix a lantern or a gun.  And yes expended shells do not reload well, as far as I know, period. Regardless of bottleneck or straight. That was not really my thought though, rather I was thinking making completely separate casings- which I fully acknowledge is probably unrealistic (at best). 

On the issue of sulfur, saltpeter and charcoal. I did not include sulfur for simplicity sake. And technically it isn't required- its used to lower the ignition temp. I feel its kind of asking too much to request the devs to add too many new resources simply for the sake of basically expanding the function of an in game mechanic, which may not even be needed. I didn't find anything about saltpeter being near rivers, but rather as white crystalline formations within caves, or in bat guano/ fecal excretions of people/animals which would be a process to remove. Being that the player character doesn't seem to ... "produce", I figured the simplified route would be best. I actually did not know about the household applications. And from what I read, specifically charcoal from soft woods is best.  Also, from what I can tell Saltpeter is the primary ingredient, and sulfur is the least- though that is for modern gunpowder.

The overwhelming issue, it seems, is one I was not aware of until Boston123 pointed it out. The issue of smokeless vs black powder. Honestly- I have no answer to that mate. I suppose you might find smokeless powder in places that guns spawn often, but without reloading benches being common that isn't logical. I won't really go into primers, simply because its a moot point. Without smokeless powder you don't need primers.

That leaves the option of an antique gun such as a musket. Personally, I think that adding that to the game would be asking too much, but I wouldn't mind if it was. It would also render an ammo press irrelevant. 

[Fuarian]

NO NO NO NO NO! This would make it all way too easy! Rifle Ammunition is meant to be conserved and once you run out you either look for more or convert to the bow and arrow. You'll be set for life if this becomes a reality and let's be honest. What random bush pilot/free-lance doctor knows how to make BULLETS? Forging items is even taking it too far already.

[KinoUnko]

On the other hand it's not unrealistic to find reloading equipment and supplies in rural areas, I'd expect it to be more common than urban or industrial areas. I wouldn't expect free-lance doctor to know about reloading, but it's not a stretch for a bush pilot. Found materials would have to be very very sparing, a pound of powder goes a looong way. Limit the reloading by found bullets, balance it out by spawning less cartridges. Reuse the brass, they break after a few reloads, 2~4 reloads. Old brass increase potential of ruining the weapon completely. Extra left over brass + primers could be used as blanks to frighten away predators. Excess powder can be used as accelerant. Guns found out doors or by corpses might have a brass or few lying nearby. No different than harvesting broken arrows for the tips and fletching really.

I wouldn't be surprised if this makes it into the game in some form, especially if more firearms are added in the future. To be honest, it's a bit surprising Jeremiah doesn't reload his own, considering military surplus ball rounds aren't ideal for hunting. IIRC there is a revolver asset in the build already, just not accessible in game play. Revolver cartridges would be good candidate for reloading. 

If I had my way I'd add a lever gun with the revolver, chambered for the same cartridge.

[SteveP]

Reloading gear and supplies would be a nifty option. Perhaps that is something would could be added when a MOD editor or similar capability could be added to the game.

[Mroz4k]

22 hours ago, Eranderil Nix Grey said:

With proper tools you can refine bullet shape at a reloading bench.

I am pretty sure bullets are made out of plumbium, not scrap metal which is most likely steel. Plumbium is heavy metal, but it can be smelted relatively easily despite being so heavy. bullets are pressed because liquid plumbium is poured into the press, and then you apply pressure on it till it solidifies again. Afterwards, you put it into a grinder and grind off the excess parts. Which brings another point that you would likely need electrical tools to press the bullets in the first place. I think. Maybe I am wrong, honestly bullet pressing is just something I read about.

15 hours ago, KinoUnko said:

wouldn't expect free-lance doctor to know about reloading, but it's not a stretch for a bush pilot.

I am pretty sure just about everyone who had experience living in such location would have at least basic understanding of what to do - not to mention that I would expect the reloading bench on its own would have some manual on it somewhere anyways. I dont think it would be that much of a stretch to put it into the game. The issue here are realistic supplies for it. And then there is the fact that the game only has one type of ammunition in it in the first place. Likeliness of finding materials for that particular type of bullet are unlikely - because even the gunpowder is usually different for differently sized bullets.

15 hours ago, KinoUnko said:

primers could be used as blanks to frighten away predators. 

This is an interesting idea. If I wanted to have reloading bench for anything, it would not really be for making more ammo, but rather instead creating specialized one like you just described. I love the idea of having dud ammo that just makes the noise.

 

15 hours ago, KinoUnko said:

IRC there is a revolver asset in the build already, just not accessible in game play. Revolver cartridges would be good candidate for reloading. 

Heard somewhere that revolver is in the works.

9 hours ago, SteveP said:

Reloading gear and supplies would be a nifty option. Perhaps that is something would could be added when a MOD editor or similar capability could be added to the game.

I think Mod for this would be the best option. I know a lot of people like this idea because they like hunting with rifles more then with bows. Then there are people like me who dont really care for rifles and use bows solely. So a mod would satisfy everyone.

[JAFO]

3 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

I am pretty sure bullets are made out of plumbium

Just so that you're aware, in English the term is "lead", not plumbian..

And yeah, casting objects with lead is pretty simple, I used to cast all my own fishing sinkers as a youngster.

[Boston123]

Most modern firearms do not actually fire bullets made of pure lead: the lead would be so soft, it would mess with the internals of the gun while loading.

Most modern bullets, including military surplus ammunition, which is almost overwhelmingly-likely what we are shooting in-game, has what is termed a 'jacket': a sleeve of harder metal around the softer core of lead. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_metal_jacket_bullet

[Eranderil Nix Grey]

And a jacket is probably copper. Which is likely a metal included in the grouping of metals forming the amalgam item known as "scrap metal", along with lead.  However, this still leaves the issue of smokeless powder untouched. So while crafting bullets may be feasible, the logistics of propellant remains the main deathblow to this possibility, unless someone finds a significant workaround.

[KinoUnko]

It's okay to shoot BP in modern weapons, just not smokeless in old BP weapons. Old BP weapons can't handle the higher chamber pressure from smokeless cartridges. BP in modern firearms just require more cleaning. .303 british was originally black powder, black powder load data would be readily available. Powder choice isn't strictly linked bullet weight. Any given bullet will have data available for a dozen different powders provided by the bullet manufacturer, and any powder manufacturer would have data for a variety of bullet weight and cartridge types readily available. 

Lead Bullets were never pure lead, but alloyed with Antimony or Tin, mix depends desired bullet hardness. Lead bullets is preferable for hunting because better expansion, and it's considerably cheaper than jacketed bullets, by a factor of 3 on average. Hunting rounds are either all lead bullets or half jacketed rounds with exposed lead tip. Some prefer lead bullets as it's easier to clean than copper. Surplus .303 brit are berdan primed, most shooters are not fond of it as it corrodes the barrel. Reloaders dislike berdan primed rounds even more. If Jeremiah is as much a hunter and survivalist as he seems to be, I doubt he'd settle for surplus ammo unless it was a last resort. 

Reloading isn't as big of a deal as one imagine. A powder scale/measure, a few dies, and a small mallet or block of wood, all the tools you need will literally fit in your pockets. You can set the bullet depth by using an existing cartridge, caliper is not absolutely necessary. A bench mounted press makes it easier if you have to load hundreds of rounds at a time. But if you're doing just a dozen rounds it's more time consuming to set up a press. If Jeremiah is reloading at all, he would have all the relevant measurements noted and supplies necessary, likely including bullet molds and swaging die. Alternatively a weapon prepper's cache could have supplies and tools, in which case the supplies would all be compatible and relevant information like overall length, bullet seat depth, powder charge weight would be readily available. You won't be making 5cm groups at 400m, but it will be perfectly good for hunting.

If you want actual fluff, when Will first encountered Jeremiah in story mode, he fired Jeremiah's rifle which had reloaded rounds. The round had old brass and resulted in head-case separation, so Will had to huff it to BR to extract the case from the chamber before the rifle can be used again. That or a squib are the only two things you could repair without powered machinery.

All in all reloading is well within the realm of reality of TLD, and very much in the spirit of the game, and not terribly complex to implement. There's no need to go full prepper and make everything from scratch. Endless reloading is not the objective, just as endless bow/arrow isn't a thing. You could limit the tools/supplies to a weapon prepper's cache so it's not guaranteed to spawn any given game.

[Eranderil Nix Grey]

16 minutes ago, KinoUnko said:

Alternatively a weapon prepper's cache could have supplies and tools

Actually, I kind of like this idea. If it were a guaranteed prepper cache that spawned randomly in any zone except Mystery Lake, on stalker or less difficulty, it could be a serious challenge to find. I feel like that would balance out a lot of the benefit one would gain, without too much stress on coding. 

[KinoUnko]

from what I know preppers cache only spawns in ML or PV, one per game I believe. and it could be one of 4 types, clothing, food, medical, weapon. 

so if reloading supplies are only found in weapon preppers cache, there's 1/4 chance of getting it any given game. A box of bullets, 10~50, a box of primers, 25~100. and anywhere between 50 to 200 grams of powder. typical 303 load is around 2.7 grams of powder. A Reloading Book could spawn somewhere like trappers cabin or mountaineer's hut. 

1/4 chance of getting 10 to 50 extra cartridges per game, I'd say that's pretty fair, and not at all game breaking.

[cekivi]

Welcome to the forums @Eranderil Nix Grey

The main challenge with your proposal isn't so much the practicality (whether such supplies could be found) but the effect it would have on game balance. Reloading, while a neat option, would drastically affect the balance of the game by increasing the number of times you can use the rifle. It would also be a mechanic that would only serve three of the challenge modes. With no rifle in Interloper any additional rife mechanics would not be available. 

Personally, if that's the type of game you want to play go for it but I think it would be better as an optional, community mod instead of developer content. 

[Reahs]

On 2017-11-05 at 11:20 AM, Mroz4k said:

Thank you, @Boston123 for pointing out all the facts that I had an issue with. There is so much about this idea that just makes zero sense at all. And I know there are some people who wish to see game logic in TLD, I dont. It would completedly kill the immersion. Besides, the TLD prides itself being one of the most realistic survival games out there, would be a shame to kill that so blatantly by making the bullets out of super simple materials.

Also, the issue is that rifle bullets are supposed to be rare, and limited. Though you can get more through beachcombing, I´ve heard.

I dont want to see bullets for rifle craftable. Tradeable with NPCs, maybe, but not craftable. It should remain hard-to-get resource.

On the other hand, I would not mind if the game had a Musket or black powder rifle in the game, which would utilize forgeable bullets and craftable black gunpowder.

By the way, by combining saltpeper and charcoal, you would get powder which looks like gun powder but does nothing but burn. You are missing sulphur - black gunpowder is on average 70% sulphur, 20% saltpepper and 10% carbon, in this case charcoal. All of these are common household items - sulphur has been used to treat fungi infectations for years, saltpepper is used to conserve meat, which would be another use of it in TLD, I reccon. So, I see these items more like loot from house raiding.

I suppose both saltpepper and sulphur could be found in caves, though not in the same ones. Sulphur chunks are often found in coal mines. Saltpepper, however, is more often found as a white powdery substance on rocks close to rivers. But that source would be hidden beneath the snow in TLD, and washed away by it.

And finally, coal dust would work much, much better then charcoal.

before they removed the roadmap there was ammo crafting in the long-term category and before that a revolver so they might add a way to make ammo but it will probably be hard to make so your main way of getting ammo is finding it.

[Tomcat2]

I would focus more on weapons that could be made of available resources. For example a crossbow could be done with a use of some wood or maple samplings, whatewer, scrap metal and quality tools. If a binoculars were findable object as somebody proposed, you could also use it to make a telescopic sight. That would give you better, more precize long range weapon to kill anything from a distance without putting yourself in danger...better than crafting bullets you probably wouldn't be able to make because of obvious reasons...

[Reahs]

3 hours ago, Tomcat2 said:

I would focus more on weapons that could be made of available resources. For example a crossbow could be done with a use of some wood or maple samplings, whatewer, scrap metal and quality tools. If a binoculars were findable object as somebody proposed, you could also use it to make a telescopic sight. That would give you better, more precize long range weapon to kill anything from a distance without putting yourself in danger...better than crafting bullets you probably wouldn't be able to make because of obvious reasons...

before they removed the roadmap there was ammo crafting in the long-term category and before that a revolver so they might add a way to make ammo but it will probably be hard to make so your main way of getting ammo is finding it.

[Mroz4k]

7 hours ago, Reahs said:

before they removed the roadmap there was ammo crafting in the long-term category and before that a revolver so they might add a way to make ammo but it will probably be hard to make so your main way of getting ammo is finding it.

I never saw that on the roadmaps. In fact I was under the impression that Hinterland was strongly against ammo crafting in the first place.

 

5 hours ago, Tomcat2 said:

I would focus more on weapons that could be made of available resources. For example a crossbow could be done with a use of some wood or maple samplings, whatewer, scrap metal and quality tools. If a binoculars were findable object as somebody proposed, you could also use it to make a telescopic sight.

Problem with that is game balance. Adding a crosbow would make quite a perfect combination in between the bow and the rifle. I doubt it will make it into the game, honestly. Not sure if I would want it to begin with - specifically because of how easy it would be to get and to hunt with. Honestly, I dont think the game needs that much more weapons. I suppose I wouldnt mind seeing more "stunning" weapons rather then big game hunting stuff.

[Mroz4k]

14 hours ago, KinoUnko said:

It's okay to shoot BP in modern weapons, just not smokeless in old BP weapons.

Actually, that is a lie. There are a few exceptions in between modern guns that would not be destroyed immidiatedly, but in case of some handguns, it is possible they will even explode in your hand if you try to use black gunpowder.

I dont know where you get your info, but what you are saying is wrong. Even if the gun wouldnt break down right away, you would have to clean it almost constantly, I am talking after every few shots, and eventually they would become irreparable.

There is a reason why modern guns use smokeless gunpowder, especially since black gunpowder is so damn cheap to get, much cheaper then the smokeless one, anyways. Black gunpowder is corrosive, for start.

[KinoUnko]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm just reading hand loader and shooter web forums, and reloading my own stuff. but I'll take your word for it. 

In all seriousness though, there's good case against loading BP in necked cartridges because it's difficult to pack enough charge. Old .303 ammo were loaded as straight wall cases before necked down for seating the bullet. BP charge is pre compressed into a plug.

[JAFO]

18 minutes ago, KinoUnko said:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm just reading hand loader and shooter web forums, and reloading my own stuff. but I'll take your word for it. 

I think I'll take the word of the one doing it, as opposed to the one who just talks about it. 

[Boston123]

7 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Actually, that is a lie. There are a few exceptions in between modern guns that would not be destroyed immidiatedly, but in case of some handguns, it is possible they will even explode in your hand if you try to use black gunpowder.

I dont know where you get your info, but what you are saying is wrong. Even if the gun wouldnt break down right away, you would have to clean it almost constantly, I am talking after every few shots, and eventually they would become irreparable.

There is a reason why modern guns use smokeless gunpowder, especially since black gunpowder is so damn cheap to get, much cheaper then the smokeless one, anyways. Black gunpowder is corrosive, for start.

Nope. Blackpowder puts out lesser pressures compared to smokeless, not more. Firearms designed for blackpowder cannot fire smokeless powder, because smokeless powder puts out much greater pressures, to the point where blackpowder firearms can have catastrophic failures if loaded with too high a charge of smokeless powder.

The main drawback of blackpowder compared to smokeless powder is the greatly decreased range blackpowder gives compared to smokeless..... but at short ranges, the two propellants are by-and-large identical. Even the cleaning and maintenance is less of a deal than you put off: so long as you clean your firearm religiously, which, to be frank, is what you should be doing anyways, cleaning blackpowder residue is, in the grand scheme of things, a non-issue. So long as you have hot water and something to scour the barrel and other components with (a rag tied to a string, for example), cleanup isn't that bad.

[KinoUnko]

I ask for but one thing, ability to add powder to coffee for a little extra kick.