Lack of logic is hurting the gameplay

[Tsayers1068]

1 hour ago, dbldrew said:

What is the point of CF? to force players outside right? Well woudnt taking away magic warm houses do the same thing? If your house isnt warm then you will need to spend time outside collecting firewood. So you can kill 2 birds with one stone.

I understand that this is a game and balance and game play issues sometimes need to take precedence over realism. But if you have a game balance issue that you are trying to achieve and option 1 achieves the balance and is logical and option 2 also achieves the balance but is completely idiotic and illogical then why go with option 2?

Think of it this way.. maybe houses can randomly explode.. that would make the game harder.. will force people to stay out of the houses.. and be completely idiotic and make horrible gameplay.

Is random exploding houses anymore idiotic then being forced to sleep outside in a blizzard?

 

 

Shouldn't CF be something that's addressed in the "well-being" section of the game when it's implemented?

 

But I agree, taking away the magic warm houses, which are a bit illogical anyway, would force players outside to get firewood at least.  That being said, it should be much easier to heat the house than it is to keep yourself warm with a fire outdoors--otherwise why stay indoors at all, other than to get out of the wind?

 

I also like the idea of being able to pick up rabbits and harvest them somewhere warmer.  Maybe have an option on the harvest screen to add it to your inventory.  After all, if your house was just 50 yards off why wouldn't you?

[ChillPlayer]

6 hours ago, dbldrew said:

What is the point of CF? to force players outside right? Well woudnt taking away magic warm houses do the same thing? If your house isnt warm then you will need to spend time outside collecting firewood. So you can kill 2 birds with one stone.

and what's to stop me from stock piling enough wood to stay inside a house for a month? Also the amount of wood I collect outside is maybe 10% because I don't want to waste matches on it, 90% of the wood I burn in Interloper is from furniture. So no, I don't think cold houses would have the same effect as CF does.

@cekivi: wouldn't this just lessen the consequences of CF without addressing the main issue with CF, which is to do "unrealistic" things like going outside in a blizzard just to prevent CF? We would still do this or am I missing something?

[cekivi]

@ChillPlayer To address your first point you will eventually run out of scrap wood. Then going outside to collect it becomes mandatory. The ease of the late(er) game remains a problem with the Long Dark. Using your strategy you can easily stay inside with lots to burn and not notice the reduced interior temperatures until you're more equipped to handle them. So, I still think reduced interior temperatures would be a net plus.

I think we're all in agreement that Cabin Fever was introduced to stop the starvation-hibernation exploit. My proposed "fix" (reduce condition gain overtime and add dynamic temperatures) effectively means changing the game's incentive system. Rest is no longer a limited resource but instead something with rapidly diminishing returns. It wouldn't change or prevent you from going out in a blizzard. However, it leaves the choice of whether or not to do so solely to the player. I may risk a blizzard to keep a fire going or I may just sleep through it and hope it passes before I freeze solid. You now have two "realistic" choices which is way better than anything arbitrary. I make no claims that this would be perfect and all players would enjoy a diminishing returns sleep system. It's just what I would enjoy playing in the game.

I am also fully aware that the true "realistic" option in my scenario would be to start tearing up and burning the floor but it wouldn't make for a very fun game to exponentially increase the amount of scrap wood available. Scarcity and deciding when to use limited resources make for interesting choices after all.

[ChillPlayer]

I don't think reduced condition gain would achieve the same as CF does now @cekivi. Why would you need to regain any condition if you have a storage full of meat and just sleep for a month? After that you wake up and spend a day outside in a safe place and gone is the "punishment" of not being able to heal.

Dynamic temperatures are already in place in Interloper, well sort of. But thanks to the risk of cabin fever I sleep alot outside in fishing huts or caves and therefor need to keep my sleeping location warm all night already. And this is something I like about CF, it "stains" the safe places we used to spend alot of time in, gives them sort of a poisonous aura or at least that's how I feel when I'm inside a house. I just want to get the heck out of here as fast as possible, do what I have to do and go, while remembering how many hours I've spend inside and therefore how many I have to stay outside to balance this off before I go in again.

Yes it's arbitrary but as I mentioned before, it keeps your days filled with activity, you have to get creative about how you want to spend time outside other than sleeping and you have a lot of chores to do everyday which will ultimately lead to you figuring out a routine which works for you, so you don't feel anymore like an Interloper but as one with nature

If anything, I think (in Interloper) first and foremost the punishment for CF should be more severe and healing it off shouldn't be so easy. How about a week outside to heal CF and when you spend more than an hour inside before you're healed, your week is reset and a new week begins. While you suffer from CF you loose gradually condition similar to hunger, but 1.5% per hour,  which can only be healed by sleeping outside. This would force players to take CF even more serious and really fear it as a severe threat and lay out a game plan that sees houses as loot opportunities and not as a permanent sleeping locations.

And to up the ante a bit more: why not have a "regional" cabin fever, when you stay inside a 1km radius for longer than a week or two you get some sort of cabin fever too. Now that would players really keep on the move

[cekivi]

4 hours ago, ChillPlayer said:

And to up the ante a bit more: why not have a "regional" cabin fever, when you stay inside a 1km radius for longer than a week or two you get some sort of cabin fever too. Now that would players really keep on the move

The problem is not all players like to be on the move. And you're right, if you spend a week chopping firewood and harvesting food than you can stay inside nearly indefinitely. However, I don't view that as an exploit. I suspect that's why we have a difference of opinion

Basically, if you spend the time preparing to stay indoors well fed and warm than cabin fever should be a small annoyance. My proposed change is targeted specifically at starvation-hibernation as the condition loss received from starving and sleeping would be much harder to heal. If you want to make it more fair you could even introduce a cabin fever severity scale that requires additional time outside based on how long you've had cabin fever.

[mystifeid]

@ChillPlayer +1

[MarrowStone]

To prevent starvation and hibernation, why cant calories just go in the negatives? While a new affliction called starvation that requires calorie store to go back to 0+. 

Starvation would reduce your stamina slowly at first until its much like hypothermia, itd also make condition loss throughout like it does now

In this way, just eating a cattail wont cure you.

[mystifeid]

I like CF because it forces you to go somewhere else.
Google's definition:
Interloper: a person who becomes involved in a place or situation where they are not wanted or are considered not to belong.

But a starvation affliction might not be a bad idea as a new addition.

[Eilif]

I think most players understand and Accept the fact that not all elements can be completely as in real life. And it shouldnt, as theres always a thin line where "Fun to play" could become "to easy without challence" or "impossible hard".

I dont find the unable to sleep trough a night unrealisticly, as i rearly sleep more than 7-8 hour in real, unless i am unusually tired. And i dont think for that matter, this is the issue, But rather what you are supposed to do for the rest of hours during darkness.

The houses could maybe be a little colder even tough the sun can warm up rather much at daytime, But if it where completely realistic, shouldnt it also be impossible to get water from the toilets and all plumbings likely broken and created a mess? I dont think this game would be fun to play with cold houses and it would make it almost impossible to last more than one day on Interloper.

The real issue for me are the BD or Cabin Fever if you like. Cabin Fever is a psychological problem due to being stucked for to long isolated or indooors. The symptons are bad mood and sometimes sleeping to much. The game havent included any psychological aspects of being alone in the wildernes and unless an "Mood" condition will be implemented in the game, having this little part is very hard to understand why its there. And how its done now, cabin Fever has been chanced to a serious disease of Insomnia where you eventually die unless you find a place outside to sleep. What i like about this game is the freedom to play and do whatever i like as long i dont die. Compared to other open world games, i often find that other games wouldnt matter if its open world, as i eventually have to follow the path of where the game creator want us to go. Then came the cabin Fever and it feels like some of the freedom of choosing your own way is forced away.

[cekivi]

Welcome to the forums @Eilif 

And yep:

1 hour ago, Eilif said:

Then came the cabin Fever and it feels like some of the freedom of choosing your own way is forced away.

That is also my problem with Cabin Fever

[dbldrew]

2 hours ago, Eilif said:

 

The houses could maybe be a little colder even tough the sun can warm up rather much at daytime, But if it where completely realistic, shouldnt it also be impossible to get water from the toilets and all plumbings likely broken and created a mess? I dont think this game would be fun to play with cold houses and it would make it almost impossible to last more than one day on Interloper.

 

I had a thread about warm houses a while ago here (before interloper)

http://hinterlandforums.com/index.php?/topic/12402-why-are-houses-warm/

one of my suggestions is the houses that have large propane tanks attached to the outside could be warmer or even have a usable propane heater inside. And the propane will only last so long (can very based on difficulty)

that way there is still a (logical) warm house options available, and if interloper is still to hard they can always have you start with a book of matches if need be. Lots of wasy ways to rebalance the game by making things harder

[mystifeid]

What about the backs of all the open air caves? Why are they so warm??

Don't you find that to be about 100x more unrealistic than warm houses?

[mystifeid]

6 hours ago, cekivi said:

And yep:

7 hours ago, Eilif said:

Then came the cabin Fever and it feels like some of the freedom of choosing your own way is forced away.

That is also my problem with Cabin Fever

If we're talking about Interloper then not having the freedom to choose your path seems to be the theme of the game.

If you want to craft the warmest clothing and want a weapon then you must first find a hammer. Then you must go to Desolation Point. Then you must (unless you are very good) go somewhere else.

This usually takes me at least forty days. Forty days!!

In 200 days I'll spend a couple of nights in a cave to abate the risk of Cabin Fever. Big deal.

[dbldrew]

2 hours ago, mystifeid said:

What about the backs of all the open air caves? Why are they so warm??

Don't you find that to be about 100x more unrealistic than warm houses?

i find it just as unrealistic unless the cave is really really deep, so i would also like that fixed as well 

[mystifeid]

Don't hold your breath.

I take a great deal of comfort from this statement...

Quote

We’ve always been clear with our community that we want their feedback, but they don’t drive development.

...because what a schmozzle the game would become otherwise.

[Tsayers1068]

4 hours ago, mystifeid said:

Don't hold your breath.

I take a great deal of comfort from this statement...

...because what a schmozzle the game would become otherwise.

In other words they do pay attention to what we say but may not necessarily let it shape the game in every instance.  But there must be some chance of it doing so, otherwise they wouldn't have an open playtest or want our feedback.

[mystifeid]

So you like the idea of design by consensus.

Have you noticed what a mass of contradiction is in this forum? This thread?

Feedback might be handy for things like gauging current interest, learning about problems with gameplay, bug reports and picking up on the occasional original idea that meshes with their agenda.

And an open playtest = sales = jobs = more development.

[Eilif]

16 hours ago, mystifeid said:

If we're talking about Interloper then not having the freedom to choose your path seems to be the theme of the game.

If you want to craft the warmest clothing and want a weapon then you must first find a hammer. Then you must go to Desolation Point. Then you must (unless you are very good) go somewhere else.

This usually takes me at least forty days. Forty days!!

In 200 days I'll spend a couple of nights in a cave to abate the risk of Cabin Fever. Big deal.

So many say you have to go to DP. You cant survive without knife and Axe. I dont agree on that. Going to Riken is for me a bigger risk than what i think its worth. I am currently at day 55 and doing good without knife, bows and hatchet, except from that i never found a jacket and only taken down 2 wolfes so far. One With the flaregun. Actually i needed 4 shots before i finally hit a wolf. But except from that i have the other warm clothings. Having a bow & Arrow is ok, but not needed if you go for fishing and snares. Even Interlooper have the freedom to make your own story and path to go for.

[TWM]

Quote

Making axes and knives super durable would make the game less fun IMO because you would just need to find one and you're set for life.

This could be solved by having the degradation of the axe and knife lessen their effectiveness at cutting, though. So for one thing: tasks will take longer, and perhaps you'll spoil more deer meat (not a mechanic as of yet).

Same with the rifle: the more you let it clog up, the less reliable the aim is.

Furthermore: hell yes there should be less axes, knives and rifles in the game, and I'd be in favor of a mechanic where you break them and have to repair them, costing you a couple of hours. This can be balanced as well.

[cekivi]

@mystifeid: I wouldn't say there's that much of a contradiction. The general consensus is that most players on this thread want the game more challenging. The contradiction comes in how we want to achieve that. On a whole, I think that's good feedback

As a general note: the odds of getting cabin fever on the higher difficulties are very slim simply because you have to travel so much. However, since cabin fever is game wide some additional tuning would help all of the experience modes.

@TWM: I've also long been in favour of rarer tools that last forever if you maintain them. But, again, this remains contentious

[mystifeid]

1 hour ago, cekivi said:

On a whole, I think that's good feedback

Well I hope it is too but again, I won't be holding my breath.

Consider though the original thrust of the thread - how new a topic do you think realism is in the lunch room at Hinterland.

And I'm not qualified to talk about the other modes. One I've never played and and another I've played once. Interloper has become the new normal.

@Eilif - Good for you and I hope you survive for a long time yet. I'm on day 140 trying it without snaring or fishing at all.

After dying in Crumbling Highway more times than I've had hot dinners, I can now get through there without problem. When I return with a bow I take great pleasure in staying there until I've killed the wolves.

Afaik, you need a knife or hatchet to craft the wolfskin coat so maybe you shouldn't worry about the wolves.

[ChillPlayer]

8 hours ago, mystifeid said:

After dying in Crumbling Highway more times than I've had hot dinners, I can now get through there without problem.

yes that place, I hated it too until I learned first hand how great a defense the Torch is. I fended off two of the biests in a row in Crumbling Highway just by waving the Torch at them and since then I don't fear that place as much anymore - if I have a match and a Torch or a Flare that is

[mystifeid]

Hate doesn't start to express what I used to feel for that place.

 

Spoiler

Now I just stay go out on the ice at the first opportunity and go as wide as possible. Most of the time I can get through without using a match. The Arch cave is the sanctuary in the middle. Unencumbered and with full stamina I've managed to sprint from there between both (woofing) wolves to safety at the CH end. Otherwise I wait for a gap to open up and walk through. Getting to the Arch from the mine can be tricky if there is wolf in the way and I will often return to the mine for an hour. When I go from the CH end to the Arch and there is only one wolf on the ice then it is easy to wait for a gap. If both wolves are out there, I sprint around the back way past the basement. These days I don't worry about looting the basement or stopping for anything else up on top until I know that the wolves are dead. And I hunt them on the ice too. Even with a bow, when I go the back way instead of on the ice it can be very difficult to put an arrow into a charging wolf when it is bobbing up and down on that uneven landscape.

 

[Mikhail_Reign]

I don't really like the cabin fever mechanic. If anything I think the game should be forcing you inside MORE, so that you HAVE to go out in bad weather, because you might starve/freeze before their is a break in the weather. I don't think 'should I use this match' should be quiet as emphasise, and 'should I go out I this weather' more emphasised.

[writeright1]

  On 10/19/2016 at 1:01 PM, dbldrew said:

Crafting tools

so I can craft a fishing hook out of scrap metal, but no knife or arrowhead?

-----------

 

 

I have to agree about the arrowheads.  Going all the way to DP just to make them is one of the main reasons I stopped playing.  With a hacksaw, pliers and hammer you should be able to improvise them out of scrap metal like we used to be able to.  On Mythbusters they've tested arrows without arrowheads, just a sharpened stick with fletching and it was a viable arrow, though it would take longer to bleed out due to the smaller entry wound.  On Youtube you can watch people make hunting arrowheads out of window glass and glass bottles.  Forging just seems like the least plausible way to make them.  Blacksmithing is not something that could be easily learned by trial and error during a frozen apocalypse.  Maybe give damage modifiers to improvised arrowheads and properly forged ones.  Or on the improvised ones, if there were razor blades in a house, you could incorporate them into your arrows to make a more deadly point.