First impressions

[pav]

I started my first sandbox knowing very little about the game, just that it's survival after some apocalypse and it's hard. I was lucky to immediately find my way to the Camp Office and go from there. I'm now at day 27 and I have come close to dying once - I would have died more but I had heard the wolf horror stories and was extra careful. This is feedback based on first impressions. I'm writing it down while it's still fresh, before I figure everything out and forget how it was in the beginning. I'm having a great time so far, it reminded me of Wurm Online back in 2006, being lost with almost nothing.

Disclaimer: I understand that I have only touched the surface and I'm sure there are better ways to manage resources and survive. I know this is early access alpha and nothing I say should be taken as a complaint; I'm just listing the things that made an impression. I also understand that my personal opinions would not necessarily make a better game.

* When I started I couldn't figure out how to get water. No interaction with the snow, no water bottles inside. I searched online and found out that you can melt snow but I still couldn't find a container that I can use to bring snow inside. I finally read more to figured out how it works. I think the way we get water is just right, not too tedious but not free either.

* The requirement to use a hatchet to break down small crates, chairs & tables still seems very artificial.

* Even more, having to use reclaimed wood to make a snare. Why not sticks?

* I was pleasantly suprised with the weather, how the wind changes direction and that moving against it is slower, how taking cover makes a difference.

* The voice audio is playing slowed down and it was making me jump until I turned it all the way down to 0%. I read somewhere that it's a known problem, still, I don't understand why the sound effects (backpack sounds, doors, footsteps, wind) and the music sound normal but the voice doesn't.

* I noticed the rendering performance is not very good, even on the low setting and indoors. It's playable though.

* I was thrilled to discover that starting a fire near a frozen carcass thaws it and it's easier (faster) to harvest. However, it would make a lot more sense to pick the rabbit up and harvest it comfortably later. I suppose dragging larger carcasses would be too much to ask?

* Getting food is still the hardest thing for me. The first time I fought a wolf, I found and harvested its carcass later and I was so happy that I became bold and went looking for wolves, luring them close to home and attacking them with a knife. I soon realized that I have limited medicine and my clothes were almost ruined. I would expect the wounds to take a lot longer to heal and the damage to the clothes to be insignificant.

* I'm pretty sure my magnifying lens is decaying. I wonder if it is because I carry it around or because it was designed so I eventually die.

* My personal goal is to reach a point where I can sustain myself indefinitely. I don't personally care about 100 or 1000 days, I want to beat the game (at this difficulty) by learning how to survive and then become more efficient at it. That brings me to my biggest fear: I'm beginning to realize that it's not possible because there are some necessary but finite resources, like matches, whetstones and scrap metal. This brings me to an open question: What's the vision / goal for the game and the sandbox mode in particular? What is the desired typical experience for a player?

* Either I'm extremely lucky, or the odds at lighting a fire are higher than reported! Just kidding, I'm sure it's just bias. Anyway, it would be cool if consecutive attempts at lighting a fire would become easier (or maybe it never fails, just takes longer).

* I chased a deer towards a wolf and the wolf killed it for me. Awesome!

* I found myself wishing I could multi-task when cooking / melting snow / boiling water. Why not cook the previous fish while fishing for the next?

* It took me near 10 days (and Fluffy at my throat) to realize that the simulation doesn't pause when I have the inventory open! I suppose it continues because it's like real life but time passes a lot slower in real life!

* The dark is so dark indoors that my monitor fades out automatically (turns the backlight off?).

* I know it's unlikely but I'd love to play this game co-op with a friend or two.

Well, enough of that! I just got my new wolfskin coat and I heard there's a nice place called "Trapper's Homestead" nearby that I mean to visit! Wish me luck.

 

[miah999]

Hello and welcome.

What's your PC specs? TLD runs on an XBox, and my PC plays it smooth as silk. So I'm curious.

[Wastelander]

14 minutes ago, pav said:

* I was thrilled to discover that starting a fire near a frozen carcass thaws it and it's easier (faster) to harvest. However, it would make a lot more sense to pick the rabbit up and harvest it comfortably later. I suppose dragging larger carcasses would be too much to ask?

 

I didn't know that o_o and there I was, risking hypothermia just to get that one more bit of meat.

14 minutes ago, pav said:

* I found myself wishing I could multi-task when cooking / melting snow / boiling water. Why not cook the previous fish while fishing for the next?

 

Well, something called 'Advanced cooking' is on the roadmap and I heard some say that this'll be a part of it. Would make sense, anyway.

 

[pav]

37 minutes ago, miah999 said:

What's your PC specs? TLD runs on an XBox, and my PC plays it smooth as silk. So I'm curious.

Yes, it's low end, integrated Radeon R7 (A10-7850K).

[miah999]

Just now, pav said:

Yes, it's low end, integrated Radeon R7 (A10-7850K).

Oh ok, makes sense then.

Also I'm pretty sure you can break down crates with no tools, but furniture requires a hatchet.

As for the snares, I never understood that either, sticks would make more sense.

[Ohbal]

51 minutes ago, pav said:

* My personal goal is to reach a point where I can sustain myself indefinitely. I don't personally care about 100 or 1000 days, I want to beat the game (at this difficulty) by learning how to survive and then become more efficient at it. That brings me to my biggest fear: I'm beginning to realize that it's not possible because there are some necessary but finite resources, like matches, whetstones and scrap metal. This brings me to an open question: What's the vision / goal for the game and the sandbox mode in particular? What is the desired typical experience for a player?

I'm not sure if "indefinitely" is possible, haven't run the maths, but you can get pretty far (+1000 days) if you play your cards right.

The best part (for me at least) of TLD is finding out your own ways to do the stuff, Once you have explored all regions and you are more or less spoiler free, I'd suggest you to have a look at this thread by @Drifter Man

 

It has some deep calculations about item durability and best practices to use the tools. Its a massive one though, so it will take a long time to read

Oh, and your magnifying lens shouldn't be decaying, I think. I've been carrying mine for a very long time and I don't think I've seen the % change. 

[miah999]

2000+ days is the most I've seen on Twitch. But I'd imagine you'll eventually run out of supplies need to hunt, and then starve.

[Wastelander]

Theoretically, I haven't tried this, food-wise you can survive for a pretty long time, maybe even indefinitely if you're fine with hand-harvesting deers. Grab a brand from your fire which you started with a magnifying glass and you can chase off wolves from their kills. It's not impossible, but it isn't exactly easy. Only thing you can really run out of is cloth to make bandages from.

Whether this is fun is another question.

[Ruruwawa]

Very long term survival is easier than ever with the new skill system.  My fire, cooking, and fishing skills are capped in my 200+ day TWM sandbox and it's super cheap to feed myself now.  Very low risk too (= low wear and tear on clothes), since I rely almost exclusively on fishing.  Eight hours of fishing (in one cast) plus an hour of  cooking (~5 sticks) over a fire started with a magnifier feeds me without calorie restriction for 3.5 days.  

Lines don't last forever, but I'm getting several fishing days (a month or two of survival) from each one.  I have dozens of spare lines already made, and very high stores of every tool and repair tool, plus a stash of cloth and scrap metal gathered on TWM.  I haven't looted other maps for cloth and scrap metal yet.  I'm not into the math side much, but another 2000 days just with the supplies I have on hand seems easy.

2 hours ago, Wastelander said:

Whether this is fun is another question.

^THIS

[miah999]

Yeah, surviving more then 6 game years doesn't seem that hard if you really try, but it really isn't that interesting yet. 

I'm sure that the many updates to come will change that, especially the "full season" sandbox. If that happens a lot will change. 

But after awhile super long term survival may again become dull.

I'm not sure there's a solution to this.

And for me personally it's never been an issue I've yet to play a save past day 100, I reset whenever there's an update. Or if things are feeling dull.

[Patrick Carlson]

15 hours ago, pav said:

I started my first sandbox knowing very little about the game, just that it's survival after some apocalypse and it's hard. I was lucky to immediately find my way to the Camp Office and go from there. I'm now at day 27 and I have come close to dying once - I would have died more but I had heard the wolf horror stories and was extra careful. This is feedback based on first impressions. I'm writing it down while it's still fresh, before I figure everything out and forget how it was in the beginning. I'm having a great time so far, it reminded me of Wurm Online back in 2006, being lost with almost nothing.

Disclaimer: I understand that I have only touched the surface and I'm sure there are better ways to manage resources and survive. I know this is early access alpha and nothing I say should be taken as a complaint; I'm just listing the things that made an impression. I also understand that my personal opinions would not necessarily make a better game.

 

Well, enough of that! I just got my new wolfskin coat and I heard there's a nice place called "Trapper's Homestead" nearby that I mean to visit! Wish me luck.

 

Thanks for your impressions pav, and welcome! 

You've shared a lot with us in your post, on many topics. One that really stood out to me was your observation about "beating the game." I'd be really curious to hear more from you on this topic. 

In terms of the goals of the Sandbox Mode specifically, outside of day-to-day survival, those are different for everyone. Some want memorable moments for screenshots, journal entries or videos (or just old fashioned memories). Others track stats, count calories, and are working to squeeze every second they can out of the resources that are made available to them. We like that there is a freedom to the Sandbox Mode that allows for sometimes-wildly divergent stories to emerge.

[pav]

20 hours ago, Wastelander said:

Whether this is fun is another question.

Thanks everyone. Right, I agree with this, which is why it's not the "1000" days I'm after, but to reach a point where I know I could survive forever.

6 hours ago, Patrick Carlson said:

One that really stood out to me was your observation about "beating the game." I'd be really curious to hear more from you on this topic.

Since it's a sandbox, beating it for me means two things: a) survive b) explore/learn everything while interesting. Your question got me thinking and I'm not sure I can express it in absolute terms. The tipping point is probably when I can constantly produce more than I consume, and that includes everything. I feel like finite resources prevent this because I can never produce scrap metal or cloth, for example (right?). My concern may be purely theoretical; I understand from what the others said that I can scavenge so much that I quit long before I spend it but knowing that I would eventually run out is bugging me.

[Dirmagnos]

On 8/6/2016 at 1:29 PM, Wastelander said:

Theoretically, I haven't tried this, food-wise you can survive for a pretty long time, maybe even indefinitely if you're fine with hand-harvesting deers. Grab a brand from your fire which you started with a magnifying glass and you can chase off wolves from their kills. It's not impossible, but it isn't exactly easy. Only thing you can really run out of is cloth to make bandages from.

Whether this is fun is another question.

Arent brand not being 100% wolf-repellents ? So they can attack you still.

Another problem with that idea is  the fact that 3 out of 4 days are cloudy and on chances of having both clear day and wolv+deer combo are rather low. I have serious doubts if player would be able to replenish his caloric needs in this way without using hunger exploit.

And my main concern would be antiseptic, cloth is far more abundant than meds. Old Mans Beard is also quite finite, so player will run out of those long be4 cloth.

On 8/6/2016 at 4:11 PM, Ruruwawa said:

Very long term survival is easier than ever with the new skill system.  My fire, cooking, and fishing skills are capped in my 200+ day TWM sandbox and it's super cheap to feed myself now.  Very low risk too (= low wear and tear on clothes), since I rely almost exclusively on fishing.  Eight hours of fishing (in one cast) plus an hour of  cooking (~5 sticks) over a fire started with a magnifier feeds me without calorie restriction for 3.5 days.  

Fishing right now is op as it was up be4. Its a skill that requires very little effort, completely risk free and requires just basic materials. In comparison to same hunting its extremely easy and high reward activity, especially if you take parasites into equation from carnivores(even tho fish is considered to have higher risk of those, lol).

Trapping + fishing is far more profitable that hunting in every aspect. It yields more meat, completely risk-free, do not require any type of tracking, and all resources for those activities are in extreme abundance since they are low-grade.

[Sly]

On 8/6/2016 at 0:25 PM, miah999 said:

What's your PC specs? TLD runs on an XBox, and my PC plays it smooth as silk. So I'm curious.

If you are interested, my old 9600 GT barely gives 30-35 fps on the lowest settings (1280x1024) after the new lighting system was implemented.

But it is better for me to have realistic light indoors then higher fps.

[miah999]

Thanks.

I'm the same, I've always valued image quality over frames. So long as I have at least 30, I'm happy.

In case your curious, I have a Nvidia 650ti, I think I can run max settings, but I play TLD mostly on XBONE.

Maybe I should start a thread for folks to post their specs. That's if there's not one already.

[cekivi]

Welcome to the forums @pav!

[continuity]

On 8/6/2016 at 10:19 AM, pav said:

* When I started I couldn't figure out how to get water.

Yeah, now I think about it I had the same problem, and this is clearly an issue that hinterland need to fix somehow.  I think I resorted pretty rapidly to google/youtube to work out how to get water.  

No hand holding is fine, but mechanics shouldn't be an obstacle in themselves.

[Patrick Carlson]

3 minutes ago, continuity said:

Yeah, now I think about it I had the same problem, and this is clearly an issue that hinterland need to fix somehow.  I think I resorted pretty rapidly to google/youtube to work out how to get water.  

No hand holding is fine, but mechanics shouldn't be an obstacle in themselves.

Beyond a traditional "game manual" or tutorial, what would you see as a middle step to help players recognize more quickly where they can get water? (While there are multiple sources of hydration in the game, I think you are talking specifically about melting snow?

[miah999]

I've mentioned it in another thread, but I think "The Forest"'s in game survival manual is a good example. It tells players what the need to know without being a full on tutorial, while also remaining thematically appropriate. Link below...

 

[cekivi]

3 hours ago, Patrick Carlson said:

Beyond a traditional "game manual" or tutorial, what would you see as a middle step to help players recognize more quickly where they can get water? (While there are multiple sources of hydration in the game, I think you are talking specifically about melting snow?

I personally would still like a traditional tutorial featuring a Mystery Lake vacation pre-event. Doesn't need much just fishing for the day, boiling some water to make coffee for breakfast, repairing a worn out jacket and collecting firewood. Small play area and all mechanical help done via character dialog. Now, this is also the hardest tutorial to execute correctly but if done right it would make an awesome starting point for story mode (e.g. story mode starts with a picture taken at the end of the tutorial).

Note that the tutorial should be skippable, short (30-60 min would be ideal), and actually contain it's own concise story (e.g. New Year's Fishing Trip).

[miah999]

What about a "Challenge Mode" that functioned as the tutorial. That way you only went through it if you wanted to.

They could call it "Survival Training"

[continuity]

3 hours ago, Patrick Carlson said:

Beyond a traditional "game manual" or tutorial, what would you see as a middle step to help players recognize more quickly where they can get water? (While there are multiple sources of hydration in the game, I think you are talking specifically about melting snow?

Yeah, water from snow. I think the problem is that its non-intuitive.  You start out thinking, I'm going to need a container, i'm going to need snow, then i'm going to need a fire.  its quite a logical leap from that to "oh I just need a fire and the rest is implied", its also not instantly clear that you can do other things at a fire than just put more wood on because the tabs aren't prominent, so its easy to overlook the water part (I did).

Perhaps if more voice acting is possible, you could get voice ques early on, like "I should start a fire to melt some snow", and maybe when you go into the fire menu for the first time it could draw your attention to the water tab somehow.

[Dirmagnos]

24 minutes ago, cekivi said:

I personally would still like a traditional tutorial featuring a Mystery Lake vacation pre-event. Doesn't need much just fishing for the day, boiling some water to make coffee for breakfast, repairing a worn out jacket and collecting firewood. Small play area and all mechanical help done via character dialog. Now, this is also the hardest tutorial to execute correctly but if done right it would make an awesome starting point for story mode (e.g. story mode starts with a picture taken at the end of the tutorial).

Note that the tutorial should be skippable, short (30-60 min would be ideal), and actually contain it's own concise story (e.g. New Year's Fishing Trip).

Personally i would simply prefer wiki in game, that addresses all basics(that expands as player goes along, including hints and advanced sections). Problem with tutorial, especially "short" one, 30-60 minutes long(seriously, how is 30 min tutorial short ?), is that if player missed something, then he would be forced to replay whole thing again, just for one small piece of info. And new players will miss and forget things, since they have no context to put it into.

[cekivi]

12 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

Personally i would simply prefer wiki in game, that addresses all basics(that expands as player goes along, including hints and advanced sections). Problem with tutorial, especially "short" one, 30-60 minutes long(seriously, how is 30 min tutorial short ?), is that if player missed something, then he would be forced to replay whole thing again, just for one small piece of info. And new players will miss and forget things, since they have no context to put it into.

Fair criticism of tutorials. Mass Effect 2 actually had a system similar to what you described where a written description and video of more advanced combat actions were available on the Normandy's computer. It was nice and unobtrusive. Codexes/wiki's in general are nice if you need a reminder of what you've forgotten since the last time you played.

That being said, there is still room in games for tutorials done well. The gold standard, of course, being Portal

[Dirmagnos]

13 minutes ago, cekivi said:

That being said, there is still room in games for tutorials done well. The gold standard, of course, being Portal

Hmm, Will crashed while transporting secret military piece of tech that allows to create local wormholes. I like it. 8)