Emergency Stim: Mechanically Great, Thematically Bad?

[Relo]

Sorry, guys, but I kinda smacked myself in the forehead and started laughing at first when I say the update and the introduction of the emergency stim.  I just recently been playing FO4 and I remember reading that some of devs have a Bethesda background and I immediately thought, "Oh NO, stimpacks."  No disrespect intended.  I think something like smelling salts or one of those ammonia ampules that you find in most modern day first aid kits would have been more lore immersive.  I for one, don't think that the residents of Great Bear Island were suffering from too many peanut related allergies to have all those emergency stims laying around.  (although IRL, I'm allergic to bee stings so I carry two at all times, I know, tmi)

[hauteecolerider]

21 hours ago, SteveP said:

Steroid abuse is another serious concern.

Hey SteveP, I enjoy reading your thoughts, even when I don't agree with them . . .

Most of the time I do agree. 

This time I don't. 

The steroid referred to in the Stim Pack description is actually a catabolic steroid, the fight-or-flight type. It's difficult to abuse, especially with the trade-offs (weight gain, increased thirst, increased urination, risk of diabetes, risk of heart disease, immune compromise, etc) which are pretty immediate. The type of steroid you may be thinking of (i.e. testosterone) is an anabolic steroid, and those are super easy to abuse. They also cause 'roid rage, among other things. 

@Relo The item you carry for bee stings is actually epinephrine, for anaphylactic shock, not steroids. Though steroids can also be used to further reduce the runaway inflammation triggered by anaphylactic shock, they are too slow to counteract the cardiorespiratory effects. Honestly, that was my first thought when I saw the update notes, but now having read the in-game description, I now figure it's something else.

[Relo]

8 minutes ago, hauteecolerider said:

 

 The item you carry for bee stings is actually epinephrine, for anaphylactic shock, not steroids. Though steroids can also be used to further reduce the runaway inflammation triggered by anaphylactic shock, they are too slow to counteract the cardiorespiratory effects. Honestly, that was my first thought when I saw the update notes, but now having read the in-game description, I now figure it's something else.

your absolutely right, my bad, you'd think I would know better.

[hauteecolerider]

2 minutes ago, Relo said:

your absolutely right, my bad, you'd think I would know better.

No worries! I have moments like this myself, especially where my car is concerned. 

Scary ...

[Patrick Carlson]

21 hours ago, SteveP said:

I think the game concept of a boost is attractive however it's not something I personally would want to endorse to the 14+ age group at all. That's a Duke Nukem testosterone jock attitude and TLD strikes me as much more thoughtful and intelligent. I fear it's going to be a popular gimmick but I hope Hinterland will reconsider this one. my $0.02. I would have less objection if the Stim boost had some serious side-effects such as lethargy or headache later on. May we assume that it's a large dose of caffeine? Be aware that even caffeine can be abused in its pure form. Steroid abuse is another serious concern.

Steve, I'm inclined to think from your comment that you haven't had a chance to experiment with the Emergency Stim in the game. There is for sure a trade off for using it. It is precisely NOT something like a "stimpack" from some other game. It's a tool in the world, like a rifle, a sharp knife or any other item in the game that can be used--or not. And in terms of the age of The Long Dark audience, we've always talked about it as a mature experience about life, death, and Mother Nature. And there are consequences to every choice you make--a good life lesson for someone of any age, I would think. 

[TheRealNFK]

Would the atropine auto-injectors commonly issued in the military for nerve gas treatment have a similar effect to this "emergency stim" if used on an exhausted person? Or would it just give them a heart attack?

[cekivi]

After finally getting a chance to play the new updates I've been able to find - but not yet use - emergency stims. One thing I noted is that they're really, really common which kinda degrades them. A rare resource that's hard to find is much more interesting than finding one in every first aid kit searched or on the ground beside one. I've already collected 6...

[Tbone555]

10 hours ago, cekivi said:

After finally getting a chance to play the new updates I've been able to find - but not yet use - emergency stims. One thing I noted is that they're really, really common which kinda degrades them. A rare resource that's hard to find is much more interesting than finding one in every first aid kit searched or on the ground beside one. I've already collected 6...

the most efficient use for emergency stims i've been able to find is animal attacks. say youre being attacked by 3 wolves, (happens to me a lot more often than not, sadly) and you fight off 2 of them. but at this point, especially on stalker, your condition would be EXTREMELY low. way too low to fight off another. yet, inject that emergency stim quick enough and maybe youll live to see another day. or if you get attacked by a bear, youre exhausted and freezing and bleeding at 9 percent condition. that emergency stim might just give you the boost you need to make it back to your shelter and heal up properly. its saved my life in this way, i for one love this addition

[Scyzara]

If I got chased by three wolves at once I'd rather inject the stimpak before the first one has even reached me and bolt away like The Road Runner on caffeine! 

[hauteecolerider]

16 hours ago, TheRealNFK said:

Would the atropine auto-injectors commonly issued in the military for nerve gas treatment have a similar effect to this "emergency stim" if used on an exhausted person? Or would it just give them a heart attack?

Heart attack.

Atropine counteracts the effects of certain kinds of nerve gas (think sarin) by blocking the bonding of the gas molecules to nerve receptors. It is a temporary agent, not a cure, and those exposed to nerve gas still need to get to a hospital before the atropine wears off. 

That's why I am more comfortable with these stimpacks being steroid (catabolic kind) as it is something that would give us a little extra boost to run from danger to shelter. 

[TheRealNFK]

5 minutes ago, hauteecolerider said:

That's why I am more comfortable with these stimpacks being steroid (catabolic kind) as it is something that would give us a little extra boost to run from danger to shelter. 

Is that one of the meds they give to race horses? I remember reading something about a lot of different kind of steroids and other medications used in horse racing.

[hauteecolerider]

Lasix (furosemide) is the most commonly drug given to racehorses. It's a diuretic, and used for "bleeders."

See, the physics of several hundred pounds of abdominal contents banging on the diaphragm during a run can cause microscopic bleeding in the lungs. This in turn interferes with oxygen uptake by the respiratory circulation. So furosemide is given to decrease blood pressure in the lungs, thus decreasing the risk of capillary tearing and bleeding, and improving the horse's oxygen uptake. 

It is banned when used to enhance performance. However, if the horse is a clinical "bleeder," it can be given under the supervision of a veterinarian (to avoid abuse of the drug's effects). Go figure. 

I'm not as familiar about steroid use, but I suspect the steroids in question are anabolic steroids, involved in muscle building and slower acting, not catabolic steroids, which are involved in fight-or-flight reactions and faster acting (and leading to muscle wasting with prolonged use - quite the opposite effect). 

[SteveP]

On 2016-04-24 at 6:48 PM, Patrick Carlson said:

Steve, I'm inclined to think from your comment that you haven't had a chance to experiment with the Emergency Stim in the game. There is for sure a trade off for using it. It is precisely NOT something like a "stimpack" from some other game. It's a tool in the world, like a rifle, a sharp knife or any other item in the game that can be used--or not. And in terms of the age of The Long Dark audience, we've always talked about it as a mature experience about life, death, and Mother Nature. And there are consequences to every choice you make--a good life lesson for someone of any age, I would think. 

I do NOT need to experiment with drugs in a game to know how I feel about games that include drugs. I repeat: this is not the lesson we want to teach young people. I do not like the justification for the use or steroid stimulants by saying that "everything has a trade off". You might as well argue that Cocaine has a trade off. Gee, you think?

To regard drugs in general as tools is a foolish generalization ESPECIALLY stimulants.

I don't expect everyone to agree with my view. I'm a bit annoyed that y'all want to argue with me over it.

Why do I say young people? Because they are impressionable and quick to jump to unjustified conclusions and generalizations. We presume that older people have had a chance to weigh the pros and cons and to be trusted to set a good example. Unfortunately, that is not always true.

[Scyzara]

Do you really believe players are going to consume drugs in real life because TLD "taught" them to do so? 

I for one very much doubt that anyone - no matter their age - is that much influenceable. (Well ok, toddlers, kindergarten children and possibly younger elementary school children may be, but these are neither able to buy drugs nor should they play TLD so they're irrelevant for the topic).

Besides, I don't believe it's TLD's intention (or responsibility) to teach children or teenagers anything about real life drugs. Parents and school teachers are responsible to explain the risks and dangers of these substances to children. Videogames (especially the ones which don't have children as a target audience!) are neither responsible for that, nor do they even have the possibility to explain such things to children even half as well as someone with a pedagogical education could do in real life.

Just my opinion about the topic.

 

 

 

[ElvisHunter]

On 4/24/2016 at 9:48 PM, Patrick Carlson said:

...we've always talked about it as a mature experience about life, death, and Mother Nature. And there are consequences to every choice you make--a good life lesson for someone of any age, I would think. 

I agree. Keep it dark please.

I am a parent and I'll take responsibility for what my children are exposed to. I am a gamer and appreciate art and I would like to see Hinterland's uncensored vision of TLD. If that includes themes of violence and drug use I'll play it after the kids go to bed. 

[Tbone555]

saying that this game will teach kids to do drugs is like saying it'll teach them to take a rifle and go shoot a bear. its not gonna happen

besides, this game is gonna be rated T, if I'm not mistaken. its directed at an audience of teens and adults that are smart enough to know better than to say "oh, steroids look fun!"

and i say that as a teen, myself. younger people aren't as naive and unintelligent and impressionable as people make them out to be. i've been playing grand theft auto since i was 5 years old, and there has not been one time in my entire life it caused me to act violently or even think about doing drugs.

i don't see the big deal in the steroid injection, anyway. its an emergency medical tool that can and will kill you if abused and can cause all kinds of negative effects.

I'm really not trying to argue, I'm just saying i don't see what the big deal is.

[Greenglades]

Amidst snared rabbits, looting corpses (even using corpses for storage), shooting and harvesting wolves, beer, and deer, the thematic of an injectable stimulant fits in. Can you say "Epi-pen" - life saving for those allergic to bee stings.....

 

It will save many a good game run which many of us have lost to a single wolf attack that dropped us from 100% to 2% out of the blue. Strategic use of it makes it far more effective and it can be a gamechanger.

[cekivi]

3 hours ago, Greenglades said:

Amidst snared rabbits, looting corpses (even using corpses for storage), shooting and harvesting wolves, beer, and deer, the thematic of an injectable stimulant fits in. Can you say "Epi-pen" - life saving for those allergic to bee stings.....

 

It will save many a good game run which many of us have lost to a single wolf attack that dropped us from 100% to 2% out of the blue. Strategic use of it makes it far more effective and it can be a gamechanger.

Oh, I agree. I stumbled onto a bear just as a flare went out. A short mauling later the only thing that kept me alive was a nearby hut with a bed and an emergency stimulant to get me there. Mechanically, Emergency Stims are a wonderful addition to the game. It takes some of the punishment out of bad luck and allows for more experimentation and risk taking.

I just like seeing real life equivalents for the things in the game and I don't know of any miracle drug that will let you sprint away from a bear while covered in lacerations and bleeding out

 

 

[lupineways]

6 hours ago, Scyzara said:

Do you really believe players are going to consume drugs in real life because TLD "taught" them to do so? 

I for one very much doubt that anyone - no matter their age - is that much influenceable. (Well ok, toddlers, kindergarten children and possibly younger elementary school children may be, but these are neither able to buy drugs nor should they play TLD so they're irrelevant for the topic).

Besides, I don't believe it's TLD's intention (or responsibility) to teach children or teenagers anything about real life drugs. Parents and school teachers are responsible to explain the risks and dangers of these substances to children. Videogames (especially the ones which don't have children as a target audience!) are neither responsible for that, nor do they even have the possibility to explain such things to children even half as well as someone with a pedagogical education could do in real life.

Just my opinion about the topic.

 

 

 

100% Agreed. 

[Greenglades]

18 hours ago, cekivi said:

Oh, I agree. I stumbled onto a bear just as a flare went out. A short mauling later the only thing that kept me alive was a nearby hut with a bed and an emergency stimulant to get me there. Mechanically, Emergency Stims are a wonderful addition to the game. It takes some of the punishment out of bad luck and allows for more experimentation and risk taking.

I just like seeing real life equivalents for the things in the game and I don't know of any miracle drug that will let you sprint away from a bear while covered in lacerations and bleeding out

 

 

In real life, adrenaline would be the biochemical surge in our body to sprint away.This fight- or - flight body mechanism is not really used as a drug in civilian survival experience. Adrenaline is used in medical emergency situations, if you have seen Pulp fiction (overly dramatic use of adrenaline) That injection would be the real life equivalent to the emergency stim.