The Storm Lantern

[Drifter Man]

So far I have been using the lantern only to provide light indoors when it is dark. More recently I have noticed that the lantern increases air temperature by 5°C, i.e. can help from freezing in bad weather more efficiently than a torch (4°C) or flare (3°C) - whether or not it is realistic is another issue. A fully loaded lantern - 1L of kerosene - lasts for 4 hours, but fuel is rare (if we ignore the item respawn bug). The lantern has a percentage status, but no noticeable degradation with time or use. Kerosene also has percentage status but again, I have not observed any significant degradation over time.

I like the lantern and have a few thoughts on expanding its usefulness.

1) Complex activities like crafting, cleaning, sharpening, repair, harvesting are currently possible even in complete darkness. I think this should change. Ideally the efficiency should depend on the lighting conditions, but this would result in variable crafting times. Simpler suggestion: the activity stops when daylight runs out. In order to continue, a lightsource (lantern or campfire) must be placed nearby.

This would stop people from working at night for long hours. Which is probably the way it should be.

2) Lantern fuel could be used as accelerant (I am surprised it can not, the idea is just too straightforward). I doubt anyone would abuse kerosene this way, given that one only has a few liters and even ca 0.05L required to start a fire is equivalent to 3 minutes of lantern time. Additional options to discourage people from doing it:

- firestarting skill will not increase if (any) accelerant is used

- more fuel is needed to start a fire (0.10-0.15L)

- lantern fuel could be made even more scarce

(Edited after the post by selfless - lantern fuel can be used as accelerant already)

3) Unless kerosene actually degrades and it is important for the game that it may degrade before it is all used, I suggest making it non-degradable and pooling its storage like that of water. It will make inventory management easier.

By the way: you may cheat and increase the percentage status of the fuel by filling bad kerosene into a lamp, then harvesting the lamp while having a can of good kerosene in your inventory. The recovered fuel will go into the 'good' can. Not that I find this anyhow useful.

2) and 3) together might even lead to elimination of the original 'accelerant' item - any accelerant found would simply go to the pooled fuel storage.

[selfless]

FYI: Lantern fuel can currently be used as a fire accelerant.

And I believe the condition of fuel listed is the condition of the canister, which may have been relevant back when inventory items could take damage in a wolf or bear struggle. But now that they can't, a 1% can seems just as good as a 99% can.

[Drifter Man]

Right you are. I guess I had only tried it with a small bottles containing less than 0.30 L, so it didn't show up on the list of accelerants. Now I tested a large canister and it worked. 0.30 L is a fair price in kerosene for starting a fire in an emergency. Thanks.

[Xantar]

300ml isn't a fair price.

1) Right now, I can see in the dark. I spend half of my night fixing clothes or making stuffs.

2) -

3) Fuel degrades in real life, but the chance of it being not flammable in your lifetime is nonexistence. They might evaporates if not sealed properly, thus losing volume.

[Hotzn]

So far I have been using the lantern only to provide light indoors when it is dark. More recently I have noticed that the lantern increases air temperature by 5°C, i.e. can help from freezing in bad weather more efficiently than a torch (4°C) or flare (3°C) - whether or not it is realistic is another issue. A fully loaded lantern - 1L of kerosene - lasts for 4 hours, but fuel is rare (if we ignore the item respawn bug). The lantern has a percentage status, but no noticeable degradation with time or use. Kerosene also has percentage status but again, I have not observed any significant degradation over time.

I like the lantern and have a few thoughts on expanding its usefulness.

1) Complex activities like crafting, cleaning, sharpening, repair, harvesting are currently possible even in complete darkness. I think this should change. Ideally the efficiency should depend on the lighting conditions, but this would result in variable crafting times. Simpler suggestion: the activity stops when daylight runs out. In order to continue, a lightsource (lantern or campfire) must be placed nearby.

This would stop people from working at night for long hours. Which is probably the way it should be.

2) Lantern fuel could be used as accelerant (I am surprised it can not, the idea is just too straightforward). I doubt anyone would abuse kerosene this way, given that one only has a few liters and even ca 0.05L required to start a fire is equivalent to 3 minutes of lantern time. Additional options to discourage people from doing it:

- firestarting skill will not increase if (any) accelerant is used

- more fuel is needed to start a fire (0.10-0.15L)

- lantern fuel could be made even more scarce

(Edited after the post by selfless - lantern fuel can be used as accelerant already)

3) Unless kerosene actually degrades and it is important for the game that it may degrade before it is all used, I suggest making it non-degradable and pooling its storage like that of water. It will make inventory management easier.

By the way: you may cheat and increase the percentage status of the fuel by filling bad kerosene into a lamp, then harvesting the lamp while having a can of good kerosene in your inventory. The recovered fuel will go into the 'good' can. Not that I find this anyhow useful.

2) and 3) together might even lead to elimination of the original 'accelerant' item - any accelerant found would simply go to the pooled fuel storage.

+1 to No. 1.

[Soul Sojourner]

I agree that certain activities shouldn't be possible in the dark, and by dark, I mean inside a building where you literally cannot see anything, or barely anything. Assuming you have your brightness set appropriately. People have used the brightness setting in games as an exploit to see in dark areas since the dawn of time (exaggeration), but nothing can really be done about that...

The only issue is, fuel can be a very limited resource, so finding alternative ways to light shelters might be an interesting idea. (there exists such a thing.... it is known as the candle, and it is mighty)

Although, I don't think it's in-ordinary to sharpen a knife with a whetstone in bed, however, cleaning a rifle should be out of the question. Too many objects to handle and need to see.

I could offer some more perspective on this, but I want to see other opinions and ideas.

[akodo1]

I am a firearm enthusiast and I can firmly say regardless of how much light you have, it's never a good choice to clean your rifle in bed.

Oh, unless you meant something else by that...

[Mikeloeven]

To be honest lantern fuel should be something the player can craft the goal of all survival games is to eventually become completely self sufficiant this game could benefit from more granular crafting for example in theory you could end up producing new lantern fuel from oils extracted from plants or animal fat of course this could be something reserved for once you set up a more permanent base which is something game lacks and sorely needs.

the problem with living off the land in this game is that there are many resources that can only be looted however for anyone with basic survival training these resources can and do have substitutes that can be found in the wild.

[Drifter Man]

I agree that different activities require different levels of lighting. The game is very much in testing phase, so I wanted to suggest a simple mechanic initially. Of course, it can be elaborated upon later.

Candle is a good alternative to the lantern and could be a craftable item - but is there anything in the Canadian wilderness to produce wax from? 'Crafting' kerosene does not sound like a good idea to me. One would probably need crude oil and a lot of chemistry equipment. I doubt that the lamp would run on this home-made fuel, anyway.

Although in most indoor areas in the game I wouldn't feel safe with a burning torch, I see it as the only sustainable source of light at this time.

[akodo1]

I don't think lantern fuels like kerosene is something you could ever craft.

crafting candles? Well you could do it from bee's wax, but that takes a lot of effort, not really doable in winter, takes melting and molds, wax has to be a workable temperature not the few degrees above C most are, etc.

I don't think this game should be all about crafting, and I don't think survival games need to have you be able to craft a replacement for everything. I think 'torch' is as reasonably close as you can get

BUT...

IF YOU REALLY WANTED TO GO THAT ROUTE...

The Inuit made stone lanterns that burned animal fat. Actually a lot of cultures made simple laps that burned various oils (like olive oil) and fats. Inuit used whale blubber and seal fat. Bears were often hunted just before hibernation for 'bear grease' which isn't as good but was considered best by those who weren't coastal dwellers. Adding bear grease to bears would be the easiest and most real fuel (aside from the fact these bears aren't hibernating during the winter, and don't seem to be about to start, so they'd have very little fat) You'd have to carve a lantern/lamp out of soft stone like maybe soapstone, you couldn't use it in your existing lantern.

I think it's a bridge too far. but if you really want to go that far, beargrease as a fuel source for light is what I would suggest.

[akodo1]

While a few things like sharpening your hatchet can be done in almost total darkness it's probably not worth trying to get different categories of what can be done in what light. Game has level of light factored in for how bright or dark to make your screen. Tap into that and have it increase crafting time. So in theory in a very dark cabin you could craft, but the time would be so long it would be ineffective.

[Hesha]

You can just poke a hole into the lid of a can of tuna and stick a bit of cloth in it - et voila - you have your lamp. Obviously this needs to be tuna in oil. I think the game has sardines in oil, should work the same way. Once the oil is burned up, you can still eat the fish.

[Hesha]

While a few things like sharpening your hatchet can be done in almost total darkness it's probably not worth trying to get different categories of what can be done in what light. Game has level of light factored in for how bright or dark to make your screen. Tap into that and have it increase crafting time. So in theory in a very dark cabin you could craft, but the time would be so long it would be ineffective.

That would already be going to far, if you ask me. The game decides that it is either day or night (by telling you "x hours of darkness/daylight" left), so the easiest way to settle this darkness issue is to simply apply a penalty to certain activities when it is night.

[akodo1]

You can just poke a hole into the lid of a can of tuna and stick a bit of cloth in it - et voila - you have your lamp. Obviously this needs to be tuna in oil. I think the game has sardines in oil, should work the same way. Once the oil is burned up, you can still eat the fish.

you can make an oil lamp out of a stick of butter. Stand it on the end and it's a lot like a candle.

These kinds of lamps/candles aren't really the same as the good old storm lantern. I think the game should have some stuff which doesn't have a crafted equivalent.

And there is always TORCH!

[chipinthedark]

Yup, bear fat (bear grease) for fuel, cloth for the wick and virtually any dish-like container could be assembled into a basic oil lamp, for stationary illumination in cabins and the like. But it would not be very practical as a mobile light source as it would be very wind-vulnerable and hard to manage while navigating a cave. More an aesthetic item than fully practical, but it might answer the issue about lighting at night for crafting.

BTW a beeswax candle is incredibly simple to make, simply continuously dunk a wick into the molten wax (it melts very easily) and there you have it. However, bees are not by any stretch of the imagination winter creatures, and would quickly die off in the Long Dark conditions. A few precious derelict hives might not be out of order though, perhaps stashed away in the hollow trees you find now & then.

[Hesha]

You can just poke a hole into the lid of a can of tuna and stick a bit of cloth in it - et voila - you have your lamp. Obviously this needs to be tuna in oil. I think the game has sardines in oil, should work the same way. Once the oil is burned up, you can still eat the fish.

you can make an oil lamp out of a stick of butter. Stand it on the end and it's a lot like a candle.

These kinds of lamps/candles aren't really the same as the good old storm lantern. I think the game should have some stuff which doesn't have a crafted equivalent.

And there is always TORCH!

How is your post an argument against candles, then? If it is so easy to make them, why not make it possible in-game?

Of course an tuna-can-dle isn't a storm lantern, but for indoor lighting it is more than adequate.

[akodo1]

#1 no butter in game

#2 butter, sardine oil, tuna, those are all oil/fat lamps

#3 idea was a light source that could be crafted out of nature, not out of found stuff. That's bearfat lamp, not beeswax candles. Adding bee hives to the game to get wax for candles is IMHO a bridge too far. Players will then say 'where there is bees, where is my honey!' others will say 'how do bees live in the winter, no flowers for nectar for food!'

Nope, if you want a 'crafted from nature' light source, the key isn't to find some way to craft kerosine, or to make beeswax candles, it's bearfat lamp.

Sorry if not clear before.

[Hesha]

#1 no butter in game

#2 butter, sardine oil, tuna, those are all oil/fat lamps

#3 idea was a light source that could be crafted out of nature, not out of found stuff. That's bearfat lamp, not beeswax candles. Adding bee hives to the game to get wax for candles is IMHO a bridge too far. Players will then say 'where there is bees, where is my honey!' others will say 'how do bees live in the winter, no flowers for nectar for food!'

Nope, if you want a 'crafted from nature' light source, the key isn't to find some way to craft kerosine, or to make beeswax candles, it's bearfat lamp.

Sorry if not clear before.

Agreed. Although it would be great if we could get huntable seals as well...

[selfless]

#1 no butter in game

Nope, if you want a 'crafted from nature' light source, the key isn't to find some way to craft kerosine, or to make beeswax candles, it's bearfat lamp.

Sorry if not clear before.

Crafted from nature light source is the torch. Why get more technical than that?

You want a self-igniting craftable-from-nature light source? I don't think it's bearfat...

[Hesha]

Torches aren't great indoors. A lamp, be it a storm lantern or an open bowl oil lamp, would have its place for indoor lighting.

[selfless]

Torches aren't great indoors.

You mean in Real Life, right? 'cuz in the game they work great.

Hold them, drop them, even place them on bookshelves or cabinets for area lighting. Light a fresh torch off a dying one. 1.5 hours of light and warmth guaranteed to light with the first match, every time. Nature's candy, er, light source.

EDIT: Also if we take cues from any 20th century movie set in a castle, torches are amazing and effective replacements for electrical lighting if you happen to be in a time period that does not appropriately have access to a light bulb.

[Hesha]

Yes :-)

I ALWAYS mean in real life

[Drifter Man]

One of the things I like about TLD is that each item has a specific purpose in the game. It has a special function that makes it distinctive from others - even if the way it is used is not always realistic. I feel that the development team has this always in mind and I wonder - how would the candle be special compared to the lightsources we already have? Will anybody go and kill a bear to harvest fat to make a candle to be able to work at night?

I have not been in the game for long enough to know for sure, but I feel that the most "serious" crafting - clothes, weapons, a few snares, I don't know what - is done in the first few weeks. At that time there still is the lantern to help you if you need to do it at night. Do the people who survive for hundreds of days - and presumably are out of fuel - need to craft so much to be motivated to make candles?

[Hesha]

Mhmm... they probably only make snares every now an then when one breaks.

[Sly]

While a few things like sharpening your hatchet can be done in almost total darkness it's probably not worth trying to get different categories of what can be done in what light. Game has level of light factored in for how bright or dark to make your screen. Tap into that and have it increase crafting time. So in theory in a very dark cabin you could craft, but the time would be so long it would be ineffective.

Did you ever really tried to sharpen an item in the dark? Try it yourself, maybe you really can.

As for me i can not do anything good with closed eyes in sharpening. Really can not. I can not even to sew a hole in the sock - i can not see the defect itself in the dark unless i will be lucky enough to find it by touch!That is why i think crafting/sharpening/rifle cleaning etc should be impossible in the dark, maybe slowed down in the dusk (indoors without light source as candle or lantern).