Harvest waterfalls for water

[Boston123]

I understand this principle. It makes sense for deep bodies of water, like mystery lake, or the ocean along the Coastal Highway, and even large, fast moving rivers, either flowing under a skin of ice or open. What I struggle with is: fast moving river flowing under ice, exits ice and enters free fall in waterfall. As it falls, through the freezing air, shouldn't the water temperature drop, and a significant amount of it turn to ice? The rivers we see as flowing waterfalls are significant, but they're not exactly huge. It just seems that after weeks and months of temperatures at night falling to -30, the waterfalls should ice up - whether or not there is still water moving underneath that layer of vertical ice.

A snow shelter is actually warmer than freezing. The walls will always remain at 32/0, but if ventilated right, you will bring the air temperature up, often into the 50's F. With a thermal break between you and the snow, they can become downright toasty. It is important to shape the roof so the melting snow doesn't drip on you though...

The main problem with snow shelters is that they are difficult to make without getting yourself wet. Wet clothes in cold temperatures can kill, unless you know how to dry out again in your shelter. Unless the Dev's also introduce a wet / dry mechanic, I have the feeling that snow shelters will be overpowered, or take way to long to build, as a balance mechanic.

Back to your snow and ice as an insulator, this is also why it's much easier to heat a cabin when it's snowed in. The snow super-insulates it, keeping the heat inside the cabin long after a fire goes out. I would love to see interiors in TLD lag behind daytime temperatures by 3-4 hours (IE be really cold, but no wind chill), but as soon as you light a fire, the temperature should rocket up and hold for 6-8 hours easily, especially in a mostly buried, one story structure. Something like the camp office, with an entire story exposed would obviously loose heat more quickly, although the snow on the roof would help a lot.

Ice doesn't form instantly, even if it is cold enough. It takes time, and in the time it takes for ice crystals to form, both the water that is part of the waterfall, AND the ice crystals, are 1) moving to fast to "link together" and form a solid sheet of ice, and 2) already flowing again, as part of the stream.

It also hasn't, or won't be, -30 below for weeks and months. I've played games where it has been relatively warm (between -10 and 0 degrees), which is plenty warm to allow moving water to stay liquid. If it is that cold, for that long (and we have all-but narrowed down the location in-game to viewtopic.php?f=58&t=4090&p=23251#p23251 aka Northern Vancouver Island), we have FAR bigger problems than just some shmuck trying to survive in one of the more inhospitable regions.

Weird, I have build "snow caves" and stayed perfectly dry while doing so. I have then slept in said snow cave, in -20 degree weather, and had the inside of the snow cave be a comfortable 50 degrees. So long as you take it slow (so you don't sweat), you won't get wet, even if you use your hands.

Why HAVEN'T the devs implemented a "dry/wet + sweating" mechanic, yet? It is probably the most important aspect of winter survival. I don't nearly care as much about being cold as I do about being dry. Cold I can deal with. Being wet (which 99% of the time results from overheating, as opposed to actual water exposure) is the real killer. It is why we use the layering system, which we have in-game. If I am doing labor, I remove some layers: the work will keep me warm. If I am travelling, I loosen up a layer, as to avoid overheating. Everything is geared towards keeping me dry: warm is a secondary function of dryness.

The fact that we STILL don't have "dry/wet" effects is making the game, to be blunt, look foolish, IMHO. I don't know of any "survival game" where I can literally sprint for miles through snow and NOT be dead from hypothermia. Literally, I have never walked in this game, as there are few downsides to it.

As for "game balance", the game should be balanced via the application of real-world survival techniques. Want to run? You start to sweat. Start to sweat? Take off some layers. Do some work? Take off some layers. Damage a tool? Repair it "realistically", not through the completely-foolish addition of metal and wood. Use the rifle? Clean it, not add some metal and wood. Pick up some matches? They last until they get used or get wet, not start degrading as soon as you touch them.

Seriously, some of the mechanics in this game are so far away from reality, they are almost inconceivable in a survival game. Like, for instance, wanting to gather water from a waterfall. Sure, you could attach your bottle to a bit of cordage, to throw it in the stream and fill up, but you could just as easily gather water through melted snow or through a fishing hole.

And, moving water doesn't necessarily mean it is safe to drink. You would still want to boil it.

[elloco999]

There is already a dry / wet mechanic in the game. But there is only one way to get wet right now: fall through the ice.

The most likely reason why sweating is not incorporated is because you would really need to maintain your temperature all the time. You'd be constantly taking clothes off and putting them back on. While this may be realistic, it will become tedious very fast. Even if they do smoothen the whole process of taking off / putting on clothes a lot.

[EternityTide]

I understand this principle. It makes sense for deep bodies of water, like mystery lake, or the ocean along the Coastal Highway, and even large, fast moving rivers, either flowing under a skin of ice or open. What I struggle with is: fast moving river flowing under ice, exits ice and enters free fall in waterfall. As it falls, through the freezing air, shouldn't the water temperature drop, and a significant amount of it turn to ice? The rivers we see as flowing waterfalls are significant, but they're not exactly huge. It just seems that after weeks and months of temperatures at night falling to -30, the waterfalls should ice up - whether or not there is still water moving underneath that layer of vertical ice.

A snow shelter is actually warmer than freezing. The walls will always remain at 32/0, but if ventilated right, you will bring the air temperature up, often into the 50's F. With a thermal break between you and the snow, they can become downright toasty. It is important to shape the roof so the melting snow doesn't drip on you though...

The main problem with snow shelters is that they are difficult to make without getting yourself wet. Wet clothes in cold temperatures can kill, unless you know how to dry out again in your shelter. Unless the Dev's also introduce a wet / dry mechanic, I have the feeling that snow shelters will be overpowered, or take way to long to build, as a balance mechanic.

Back to your snow and ice as an insulator, this is also why it's much easier to heat a cabin when it's snowed in. The snow super-insulates it, keeping the heat inside the cabin long after a fire goes out. I would love to see interiors in TLD lag behind daytime temperatures by 3-4 hours (IE be really cold, but no wind chill), but as soon as you light a fire, the temperature should rocket up and hold for 6-8 hours easily, especially in a mostly buried, one story structure. Something like the camp office, with an entire story exposed would obviously loose heat more quickly, although the snow on the roof would help a lot.

Ice doesn't form instantly, even if it is cold enough. It takes time, and in the time it takes for ice crystals to form, both the water that is part of the waterfall, AND the ice crystals, are 1) moving to fast to "link together" and form a solid sheet of ice, and 2) already flowing again, as part of the stream.

It also hasn't, or won't be, -30 below for weeks and months. I've played games where it has been relatively warm (between -10 and 0 degrees), which is plenty warm to allow moving water to stay liquid. If it is that cold, for that long (and we have all-but narrowed down the location in-game to http://www.hinterlandforums.com/viewtop ... 251#p23251 aka Northern Vancouver Island), we have FAR bigger problems than just some shmuck trying to survive in one of the more inhospitable regions.

Weird, I have build "snow caves" and stayed perfectly dry while doing so. I have then slept in said snow cave, in -20 degree weather, and had the inside of the snow cave be a comfortable 50 degrees. So long as you take it slow (so you don't sweat), you won't get wet, even if you use your hands.

Why HAVEN'T the devs implemented a "dry/wet + sweating" mechanic, yet? It is probably the most important aspect of winter survival. I don't nearly care as much about being cold as I do about being dry. Cold I can deal with. Being wet (which 99% of the time results from overheating, as opposed to actual water exposure) is the real killer. It is why we use the layering system, which we have in-game. If I am doing labor, I remove some layers: the work will keep me warm. If I am travelling, I loosen up a layer, as to avoid overheating. Everything is geared towards keeping me dry: warm is a secondary function of dryness.

The fact that we STILL don't have "dry/wet" effects is making the game, to be blunt, look foolish, IMHO. I don't know of any "survival game" where I can literally sprint for miles through snow and NOT be dead from hypothermia. Literally, I have never walked in this game, as there are few downsides to it.

As for "game balance", the game should be balanced via the application of real-world survival techniques. Want to run? You start to sweat. Start to sweat? Take off some layers. Do some work? Take off some layers. Damage a tool? Repair it "realistically", not through the completely-foolish addition of metal and wood. Use the rifle? Clean it, not add some metal and wood. Pick up some matches? They last until they get used or get wet, not start degrading as soon as you touch them.

Seriously, some of the mechanics in this game are so far away from reality, they are almost inconceivable in a survival game. Like, for instance, wanting to gather water from a waterfall. Sure, you could attach your bottle to a bit of cordage, to throw it in the stream and fill up, but you could just as easily gather water through melted snow or through a fishing hole.

And, moving water doesn't necessarily mean it is safe to drink. You would still want to boil it.

[Boston123]

Congratulations, you found an image of someone freezing/frosting a non-mobile, enclosed container of water, AKA the exact opposite of what we are talking about.

[EternityTide]

It was just one example, here's another, of mobile, non-contained instant freezing:

admittedly, this occurs at the -20, -30 mark (we are talking °C, here, not that backwards Fahrenheit twaddle)

but the point still stands. It also explains why waterfalls can form the great vertical sheets of ice when they freeze over.

Kinetic energy of the water is only one part of the internal (heat) energy of a fluid. Once the temperature is low enough, kinetic energy is the only thing holding it in liquid phase.

The viscosity of fluids increases as temperature decreases, kinetic energy is lost due to friction, negligible heat return from this friction results in an overall decrease in internal energy, fluid goes below latent heat of fusion, becomes solid.

Congratulations, you've just been introduce to the basics of thermal physics.

[AmericanSteel]

It was just one example, here's another, of mobile, non-contained instant freezing:

admittedly, this occurs at the -20, -30 mark (we are talking °C, here, not that backwards Fahrenheit twaddle)

but the point still stands. It also explains why waterfalls can form the great vertical sheets of ice when they freeze over.

Kinetic energy of the water is only one part of the internal (heat) energy of a fluid. Once the temperature is low enough, kinetic energy is the only thing holding it in liquid phase.

The viscosity of fluids increases as temperature decreases, kinetic energy is lost due to friction, negligible heat return from this friction results in an overall decrease in internal energy, fluid goes below latent heat of fusion, becomes solid.

Congratulations, you've just been introduce to the basics of thermal physics.

We did this for my eldest daughters birthday party. That and making a bottle freeze instantly. It was like a magic show for the kids

[bethany]

Thanks, Dr. EternityTide!

It is a fair thought to have, I'll say that.

[Shanti]

Ice doesn't form instantly, even if it is cold enough. It takes time, and in the time it takes for ice crystals to form, both the water that is part of the waterfall, AND the ice crystals, are 1) moving to fast to "link together" and form a solid sheet of ice, and 2) already flowing again, as part of the stream.

It also hasn't, or won't be, -30 below for weeks and months. I've played games where it has been relatively warm (between -10 and 0 degrees), which is plenty warm to allow moving water to stay liquid. If it is that cold, for that long (and we have all-but narrowed down the location in-game to http://www.hinterlandforums.com/viewtop ... 251#p23251 aka Northern Vancouver Island), we have FAR bigger problems than just some shmuck trying to survive in one of the more inhospitable regions.

I go back and forth on this one. My games are regularly -20 to -30 at night / early morning, which it sounds like is cold enough to start accumulation. Perhaps the time in the afternoons when the temperature rises closer to 0, some of the ice would actually melt? It's hard to imagine that, since as a rule of thumb, bodies of water can not be warmer than the night time temperature (unless heated through some natural or artificial means), so the water flowing over the waterfall should be in the -20 to -30 degree range even during the day.

Weird, I have build "snow caves" and stayed perfectly dry while doing so. I have then slept in said snow cave, in -20 degree weather, and had the inside of the snow cave be a comfortable 50 degrees. So long as you take it slow (so you don't sweat), you won't get wet, even if you use your hands.

This is mostly region dependent. From your user name, I would infer that you are probably from the east cost, where the snow is typically very dry. Pretty much everything from Colorado east receives really dry snow, which would allow you to build a shelter without getting wet. However, the west coast, from the Sierra Nevada's in California all the way up to BC, all receive really wet snow. This is where my winter experience comes from, and I can tell you with great certainty, that building a snow shelter will almost always soak you, just because the snow itself has so much water in it. One could argue that the conditions of TLD have changed all that (obviously, northern Vancouver doesn't normally ever get to -30, even in extreme winters), so the Dev's could conceivably decide the snow is as wet or dry as they want. However, I hope they do decide, and do some research into what it means - dry snow is powdery and much harder to walk through, even in snow shoes, while wet snow compacts, and sticks, and makes everything nice and wet.

Why HAVEN'T the devs implemented a "dry/wet + sweating" mechanic, yet? It is probably the most important aspect of winter survival. I don't nearly care as much about being cold as I do about being dry. Cold I can deal with. Being wet (which 99% of the time results from overheating, as opposed to actual water exposure) is the real killer. It is why we use the layering system, which we have in-game. If I am doing labor, I remove some layers: the work will keep me warm. If I am travelling, I loosen up a layer, as to avoid overheating. Everything is geared towards keeping me dry: warm is a secondary function of dryness.

The fact that we STILL don't have "dry/wet" effects is making the game, to be blunt, look foolish, IMHO. I don't know of any "survival game" where I can literally sprint for miles through snow and NOT be dead from hypothermia. Literally, I have never walked in this game, as there are few downsides to it.

As for "game balance", the game should be balanced via the application of real-world survival techniques. Want to run? You start to sweat. Start to sweat? Take off some layers. Do some work? Take off some layers. Damage a tool? Repair it "realistically", not through the completely-foolish addition of metal and wood. Use the rifle? Clean it, not add some metal and wood. Pick up some matches? They last until they get used or get wet, not start degrading as soon as you touch them.

Seriously, some of the mechanics in this game are so far away from reality, they are almost inconceivable in a survival game. Like, for instance, wanting to gather water from a waterfall. Sure, you could attach your bottle to a bit of cordage, to throw it in the stream and fill up, but you could just as easily gather water through melted snow or through a fishing hole.

And, moving water doesn't necessarily mean it is safe to drink. You would still want to boil it.

+1 to everything here. Water taken from fishing holes, rivers or waterfalls should definitely start out as unsafe.

There is already a dry / wet mechanic in the game. But there is only one way to get wet right now: fall through the ice.

The most likely reason why sweating is not incorporated is because you would really need to maintain your temperature all the time. You'd be constantly taking clothes off and putting them back on. While this may be realistic, it will become tedious very fast. Even if they do smoothen the whole process of taking off / putting on clothes a lot.

First of all, managing your layers in a winter environment IS tedious. Anyone who has spent time camping / backpacking / doing whatever in the back country in snow will tell you what a pain it is to constantly take off and put on clothes, based on whether a cloud has passed in front of the sun, or the breeze has picked up, or if you are going up hill or down.

A simple system of hot keys to remove/put on your jacket, hat, scarf and gloves would only be 4 more controls, and up to a 15 degree temperature shift. The other items, like sweater, long johns, pants, socks, boots, are all more likely to be worn all the time anyway. Introducing a heat bar could be as simple as making the cold bar need to be balanced inside a comfort zone - not climbing to high to sweat, or falling too low to freeze. Plus it would be an awesome opportunity to add some hilarity from the voice over: "I never thought I'd get too hot!" or "I was freezing a moment ago, and now I'm sweating!" could make some memorable moments. It would also lend some realism to come in from the cold, warm up for a few minutes, and then take off your outerwear.

[toebar]

I go back and forth on this one. My games are regularly -20 to -30 at night / early morning, which it sounds like is cold enough to start accumulation. Perhaps the time in the afternoons when the temperature rises closer to 0, some of the ice would actually melt? It's hard to imagine that, since as a rule of thumb, bodies of water can not be warmer than the night time temperature (unless heated through some natural or artificial means), so the water flowing over the waterfall should be in the -20 to -30 degree range even during the day.

OK, hold on a sec here. Water in lakes and rivers does not get as cold as you suggest (-20 to -30), or else it certainly would freeze. In lakes (with at least some depth), water tends to be between 0 and 4 degrees Celsius. At 4 degrees C, water is densest, and thus it sinks to the bottom of the basin. Water at the top is coolest, since it right against the ice. (See Lake temperature stratification)

In rivers it will be somewhat different, due to the constant movement of the water, but it will never be -20 or -30. Most likely the river is coming from a lake which would be about 4 C, or coming from ground water, which again is likely about 4 C, and it could cool from there to be 0 or slightly less--especially if there is no insulation from ice cover above it.

Keep in mind that the ground itself is warm (relatively speaking!!)-- in all but the most northern locations, the ground usually only freezes to a maximum of 6 feet down. This heat, and the ability of water to hold heat is what keeps lakes and rivers from getting down to the ambient air temperatures that you suggest. Ultimately, this is why geothermal heating and cooling works-- the ground maintains a relatively constant temperature.

[Scyzara]

Nice video about the freezing flowing water, but I'm quite convinced that real-life waterfalls freeze in an entirely different way.

Mostly because of what toebar said - flowing water in waterfalls doesn't instantly cool down to -30°C like in the video, thus it can't crystalize this way.^^

I very much assume the freezing of waterfalls starts from rocks at the stream's sides, creating a thin border ice layer on top of the (still flowing) water below. This top ice layer then expands from the borders to the middle of the stream until it spans the whole water surface. During the expansion process it also gradually becomes thicker (freezing from surface to bottom direction) until at some point everything is frozen solid and no fluid water at the bottom is left any more.

I've seen some partly frozen waterfalls in intermediate states that would fit this assumption, but I'm no specialist regarding these things and might have misinterpreted what I saw of course.^^

It's a really nice video to explain the general thermal principles (or fascinate children), though.

[EternityTide]

The reason why lakes and deep rivers do not freeze so easily is because of water's high thermal capacity. Lake stratification, as Toebar mentions, results in a low transmission of heat out of the water body. You only see rapid cooling of an object when the temperature difference is quite large, and hence the heat-loss gradient is quite steep. In a stratified body, the temperature gradient is much less, and so cooling occurs very slowly. Additionally, ice has an interesting property that sets it apart from other solids. It is actually less dense than its liquid phase counterpart (which is why Ice floats).

This is because hydrogen bonds between the water molecules snap the H2O molecules into a lattice. This lattice is more widely spaced than the liquid arrangement of particles, so it is less dense. This lower density, and its high reflectivity make ice an excellent insulator, meaning that even though the surface of a lake is frozen, underneath it can be much warmer, even up to 3-4 °C greater than the surface.

The issue of freezing moving water arises from nucleation. As previously mentioned, the kinetic energy of the water adds to its internal energy (this isn't exactly how it works, but the full explanation is too technical for everyone to grasp without a hugely long-winded missive). Another factor to include is the fact that the particles have such great speed that they cannot form bonds to each other. In short, they have too much energy, and bounce off each other instead of bonding.

As a result, fast flowing water cannot freeze unless it is rapidly slowed down, or it is introduced to a medium which allows it to bond without breaking off again.

This is why you see ice encrusting the sides of the river, where the water is slower (and shallower) and therefore can form the crystalline lattices, producing ice.

fast moving water bodies will only fully freeze when their water supply is choked and slowed by an increasing quantities of ice. You very rarely see a fully frozen water fall, as there is usually a hollow inside which encases a flow of water into the plunge pool below that is too fast to freeze.

Apologies for the wall of text

[Shanti]

Toebar, that was an awesome explanation. Stratafecation would make a lot of sense as to why water wouldn't follow night-time temperatures in extremely cold environments.

Scyzara, this is exactly the effect that I was trying to describe, which EternityTide goes on to further clarify.

I guess the question I'm asking is: with temperatures as low (and high during the day), wouldn't it make more sense for the waterfalls to move into the frozen on the outside / moving water on the inside model, rather than the all-wet-all-the-time one that we have now?

[Scyzara]

I guess the question I'm asking is: with temperatures as low (and high during the day), wouldn't it make more sense for the waterfalls to move into the frozen on the outside / moving water on the inside model, rather than the all-wet-all-the-time one that we have now?

I guess you're right, at least the sides would most likely be frozen in real life.^^

Like in e.g. this picture:

Btw, thank you for the thorough explanation, EternityTide.