As a Game dev My sugestions on the cougar.

[Chris Taylor]

I don't like the instant gank. However, I understand the purpose of the cougar. 

The cougar is a mechanism to prevent people from Hanging out in a zone for too long. This must be preserved. However,  Insta gank isn't fair. I want an opportunity to hipshot and bag this SOB. 

Cougars should behave like real cats, They have a stalking mode low to the ground, slow and silent. They remain out of eyeshot and silent during a charge. All you should hear is footsteps Until pounce when they announce their attack. 

My suggestion, spawn the cougar a certain distance BEHIND the camera with no sound. Have it stalk for a few paces if you are not moving, no footstep sounds during low- to-the-ground mode, then charge at a certain distance with footstep sound engaged or when seen by the camera.  If you are moving then the cat trots like wolves then charges. After the charge, you have a pounce which is not avoidable. During this stalk/charge time you have discovery and reaction opportunities (hope you have a weapon out). When charging wounding a cat can scare it off unless it's close like wolves. Wounded cougar will run away and hide and despawn, but will continue stalking again after a certain amount of time allowing you to bandage stim and find shelter, or prepare for another attack.  after that time is up another pop-in spawn can occur at random.  An indication that a Cat has spawned could be a silencing from the Wildlife ambiance track. 

Upon A pounce you have time to choose a weapon just like wolves but The time to choose is cut to 1/4, and the weapon choice line is randomized. So You can fend off an attack but you can also screw up real bad.  

cougar receives "bleed to death" at 3 shots from a bow unless headshot (possible from 5 meters), 2 from a rifle unless headshot (possible from 10), or 4 from a pistol (headshot possible at 2 meters). You screw up you can get torn up but you can also Struggle and wound the cat. Fending off cat applies 1 pistol damage with rifle bash, one rifle damage with Axe, or one arrow damage with a knife. no damage occurs with a pistol or bow,  but it does scare off the cougar. 

Laceration treatment stays the same. The vest protects from lacerations which diminish throughout the struggle time. different weapons take a different amount of time to fend off. Axe fastest, knife next down, rifle butt slow, bow slowest. Fending off with the Rifle can also provide extra Laceration protection but it also takes massive damage, you don't keep your rifle in good condition you could end up with a broken one after fending.  

damages to the cat reset when you go to sleep. if you dont kill it before you go to bed it's going to stalk you until you do, or until you get out of the zone.

Cats do not like fire. but when hungry they will attack, would be terrifying to wake up in camp to see Kitty sitting the perimeter licking his chops. perhaps he attacks perhaps not. 

You can kill one Cat before they show up in Numbers 2 an a half days after, and you will not survive that attack, pack hunters kill instantly.  So you can get torn up, still kill kitty and not be out of the woods, you have enough recovery time to limp your ass out of the zone. either way you put it You kill kitty you better also be prepared to take a hike.

 

Edited July 2 by Chris Taylor

[Mroz4k]

Hello!
This is an interesting approach. It is also nice to see people acknowledge that Cougar is there to be more as an event, rather than an animal to be hunted for another specialized piece of clothing/gear.

The idea of spawning the cat behind the player is an interesting one - but there lies a problem. For cougar to have the desired effect, it would need to be designed in a way that cannot be "cheesed". I think the main reason Cougar was designed to "teleport on top of a player" was to prevent people from cheesing it, making it unavoidable struggle. If the cat spawned some distance behind the player to approach silently, this could very easily be mitigated by someone who would place themselves into a location that is inaccessible by animals. This would, in turn, make hunting cougar very simple. 

What I believe is the main problem with cougar in the way it works right now is that it adds unique rewards for surviving a punishment that is unavoidable - the main problem being the unavoidable part. AKA, to kill cougar, you NEED to get yourself lacerated.

I like the idea of a pounce you mentioned - it fits cougar real well, and, if done well, I think the pounce itself could be used as an anti-cheese mechanic that would allow cougar to reach "cheesing players" in the out-of-bounds spots.

I dont think the actual "struggle" would need to change from the way it already is - the idea of the weapon, being used as a "revenge shot" is a good one. Instead, I would say that the ability to "kill" cougar should be in the seconds before the struggle happens. That should be the "skill=reward" part, no? And, assuming a failed attempt to kill happens, the "revenge shot" would be kind of a redeemable moment.

But I would also suggest a bit different way to go about it - what if there was a way to trigger cougar interaction in a different way, a way that was initiated by the player (basically, the idea of going on offense, rather than waiting for cougar to attack the player). I think the idea you made with the cat, being spawned behind the player, would work well if there was a way to trigger "hunting cougar event" - this could be done by attacking the den of cougar with noisemakers. If there was a way to "challenge" cougar other than via triggering its event by staying in one location for too long, I think the cougar "teleport" mechanic would have been fine, as long as there is another way to challenge it that doesnt involve quaranteed lacerations. What would be your thoughts on that kind of solution?

________________________________

To sum it up, I like your approach to some parts of the cougar, though I think that your idea on how to redesign the struggle might be a bit too complex, unnecesarily. Also, campfire absolutely CANNOT be useable to counter the cat in any way - that would make it very easy to abuse, the same way it is easy to completely counter a timberwolf pack simply by lighting a small campfire. Overal great suggestions!

[Veskaida]

5 hours ago, Chris Taylor said:

I don't like the instant gank... However,  Insta gank isn't fair. I want an opportunity to hipshot and bag this SOB. 

Yes, this is a common sentiment, mainly the lack of intractability/counter play. Though I do think Hinterlands/Raph has made it clear that the Cougar was designed as a mob to be "avoided", and that if players pursued it (by staying in a region for too long, or attacking it's Den) that they get what they deserve.

I don't mind the idea of being "ganked" by a boss-style mob, or a "pursuer-type enemy. In fact, quite like the idea/implementation (especially in Misery Mode, where Cougar time-to-appear was 10 days, and it persisted in a region for 10 days). I think if Hinterlands kept Cougar gameplay identical but instead of forcing a struggle it e.g. spawned a Cougar mob ~100m from the player and it charged the player/attempted to creep up quietly/silently and ambush the player then that would be a big improvement.

It might also be fun for some capacity to engage with cougars more organically, even if it was very rare: similar to how Moose are rare spawns.

 

5 hours ago, Chris Taylor said:

My suggestion, spawn the cougar a certain distance BEHIND the camera with no sound.

I agree. More element(s) of counter-play would be nice for cougar struggles, even if it was difficult to know that a cougar was stalking/attacking (e.g. 'fake out' catcalls, footsteps, etc in random cardinal directions, but then one ends up being an actual Cougar spawned nearby and moving in to attack.

Some mechanic/system which plays with FOV might be fun too, but that could be challenging to implement since TLD has a FOV slider, and is also playable on PC, Console and Switch so that might not be fair to players on all platforms even if it is interesting/fun/good gameplay.

[RobotDino11]

I personally agree with how it was implemented. I like the idea of something that you get plenty of warning that its coming, and if you overstay your welcome, there would be consequences.

 

I do see why people are mad. But i just don't feel that's how the cougar is supposed to be. They are really good hunters by nature. You aren't supposed to get a shot or two off, much less that the cougar is going to let you get one off. 

 

But that's just my opinion.

[dahemac]

5 hours ago, Chris Taylor said:

The cougar is a mechanism to prevent people from Hanging out in a zone for too long. This must be preserved.

Why? This is the thing I do not understand about a subsection of TLD’s community. Where does this controlling behaviour come from? What is the point of it? What is “too long?” Why do you care at all how anyone else plays the game or how long I hang out in a region?

Raphael says, “We have a clear vision for THE LONG DARK.” But clear vision seems to be the paternalistic insistence that you the player, the person who bought the game, you should play it how we say, or else you are doing it wrong, and we will introduce game mechanics that enforce our vision.

In it’s original conception I believe the idea of TLD was it was a game that inevitably killed you and your ‘score’ was just how many days that took. I believe there used to be league tables. And if you want to play that way, go nuts. I am no more the boss of you, than you are me. You play how you like.

But perhaps the reason only 1.1% of players on Steam have “The Will to Live” achievement is that most people become frustrated with having to restart something over and over and over and over again, so they quit. With the introduction of the cheat death mechanic there was recently an admission that “many” players did not enjoy permadeath, and were attached to their long-run hard-won survivors, and maybe, just wanted to enjoy the struggle of exploring and surviving on Great Bear. Maybe it is past time for the clear vision to more usefully reflect what is actually engaging about all this beautiful wilderness Hinterland have created.

[Veskaida]

2 hours ago, dahemac said:

Raphael says, “We have a clear vision for THE LONG DARK.”

Yes. Any project is, including games. Those without a clear vision are IMO usually pretty bad: either they're uninspired, or derivative. The Long Dark is a new IP, in a new setting, characters, story, with a fairly original setting and developers who are very open to feedback. Hinterlands has and does have a long history of listening to player feedback and changing the game, e.g.:

1. The Cougar: The Cougar itself is an example of what you're talking about. Cougars have been widely discussed by the community to be added to TLD for about a decade, at least since the Beta, maybe even since the Alpha. Steam, Youtube, Hinterlands forums, Fandom Wiki, you name it. In fact, Hinterlands did a community poll a few months before announcing/starting Tales From The Far Territory, and in it one of the items the community could vote on was the Cougar. Since Cougars were added to TFTFT and how ravenous the community has been about requesting that animal in TLD, I assume that was a highly upvoted "YES" item on the survey, but I don't think results from it have been made public.
2. Wintermute Episode 1 & 2 "Redux'": many players in the community were not happy with the execution of these parts of Story Mode, and Hinterlands spent a whole year basically re-building these episodes from scratch.
3. Four Days of Night (aka "4DON") and "Escape The Darkwalker" ("ETD"😞 Hinterlands regularly used to release halloween-themed seasonal patches during October. Mosty as a simple throw-away seasonal gamemode, nothing serious or canonical. Escape The Darkwalker is a much higher quality, larger, and more polished horror-themed game mode which is now available year-round in the Challenges system, where as previously you 'had' to experience 4DON by playing at/around Halloween, and honestly it was just 'ok', nothing to write home about. ETD challenge is excellent though, IMO the best Challenge mode in TLD.
4. Harvesting Incision Change: more recently (within the last 3-4 months) Hinterlands released a mechanics change where harvesting animals requires making an "Incision Cut", aka using a Hacksaw, Knife, or Hatchet to cut open an animal carcass and access it's resources, unless said carcass was already opened (by another tool, or a wolf/timberwolf killing/eating it). This was changed following community feedback to be more similar to the "canned food smashing" system, where you still require an incision cut for big game, but Rabbits/Ptarmigan may be harvested by-hand but will lose (I think ~10-25%) of the harvested meat when doing so.

Even open-source game (e.g. like "Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead", which still has curation/approval) any game or project is going to be someone's (or a team of someone's) vision (usually the lead designer or director).

2 hours ago, dahemac said:

But clear vision seems to be the paternalistic insistence that you the player, the person who bought the game, you should play it how we say, or else you are doing it wrong, and we will introduce game mechanics that enforce our vision.

I disagree, or I feel you may be misinterpreting what Hinterlands/Raph said:

• The Long Dark is primarily a sandbox game (including Wintermute/Story Mode and most Challenges)
  • Some sections in Wintermute are linear, but most is large open sandbox-y environments.
  • All Challanges have some sandbox elements, but the most linear IMO are "Escape The Darkwalker" and "Whiteout" because they impose time limits or time-based pressures.
• The bottom line is games cost money to develop and maintain and are a business. Is what you're saying wrong, from a business? I don't think so.

Hinterlands has a long track record (see above) of deliberately and consciously producing content or releasing patches for free, including multiple years long redux and revisions to old systems/content because of player feedback for free. I don't know how much Hinterlands has earned from TLD and DLC across all platforms or merch, but it is costing them money to go back and retool old content, or make new content based on feedback.

Are you seriously saying that 'this' is a company that doesn't care about it's playerbase? "you should play it how we say, or else you are doing it wrong"? Not going to throw stones at other people/projects specifically, but I can think of a lot of other companies and games which fit that description better than Hinterlands or The Long Dark.

2 hours ago, dahemac said:

Why do you care at all how anyone else plays the game or how long I hang out in a region?...I am no more the boss of you, than you are me. You play how you like.

You still can play any way you like, it's a sandbox game, and if you dislike something about the Sandbox presets you can play Custom sandbox, or play a different mode (Challenges, Wintermute). If you don't like any of these vanilla options, you can always play with mods.

The Cougar was always an optional mechanic, like Scurvy. You were free to disable it on worldgen (or when first loading an old save). The only mode it wasn't optional was Misery, because that mode was designed specifically to be as challenging as possible.

2 hours ago, dahemac said:

But perhaps the reason only 1.1% of players on Steam have “The Will to Live” achievement

I wouldn't read too much into Achievement unlocks as a trend, or some social experiment.

Only about 10% of Steam Profiles are public, and Steam is not the only platform The Long Dark is on. I've seen figures between 30-40% of all purchased games in user's libraries on Steam have never been launched, and another considerable fraction have been played less than 1 hour.

Many achievements for TLD cannot be unlocked in Wintermute (most of the 'survival' based ones, and Feat Progress since Redux). Custom Sandbox also does not enable achievements or Feat progress.

Edited July 3 by Veskaida

[ThePancakeLady]

1 hour ago, Veskaida said:

Custom Sandbox also does not enable achievements or Feat progress.

Just a small correction- Custom Settings *does not* disable achievements.

Custom Settings *does* disable Feat progression.

Achievements will unlock on all platforms in Custom Settings games. Not sure where this idea that Custom Settings disables achievements has been coming from as of late, but I keep seeing people claiming this, and I unlocked a number of achievements in Custom Settings games on both Steam and XBox since the Custom Settings Toolbox was added to the game. The only achievement that *might* be disabled is Face The Impossible as that one may require a vanilla Interloper game (no Custom Settings). 

[purplebluegreen]

5 hours ago, dahemac said:

Why? This is the thing I do not understand about a subsection of TLD’s community. Where does this controlling behaviour come from? What is the point of it? What is “too long?” Why do you care at all how anyone else plays the game or how long I hang out in a region?

I agree. Why should I be forced to leave shelter if I will anyway from time to time go out to hunt, fish, gather wood, search for supply. Same with region, I will eventually run out of stuff in one region and go to another. I waited for cougar and imagined it would spawn in mountain regions. Similar to moose it would appear in different spots of a region from time to time (hunting down animals, resting, figting) so it is hard to find and player is in danger all the time utnill cougar is killed. But as soon as it sees you it immediately silently attacks so you can only hear cougar footsteps running towards you and you have a few seconds to spot it and shoot.

[purplebluegreen]

4 hours ago, Veskaida said:

The Cougar was always an optional mechanic, like Scurvy. You were free to disable it on worldgen (or when first loading an old save).

Cougar was a selling point to me to by the dlc as i wanted more animals in the game so I expected it to be a real animal present in the world just like ptarmigan and I don't want it to be optional mechanic outside the custom mod but instead be well  implemented creature as every other animal in the game.

Edited July 3 by purplebluegreen

[Veskaida]

2 hours ago, purplebluegreen said:

Why should I be forced to leave shelter if I will anyway from time to time go out to hunt, fish, gather wood, search for supply.

9 hours ago, dahemac said:

Why do you care at all how anyone else plays the game or how long I hang out in a region?

This is a reasonable question/criticism and it's a gameplay problem TLD has tried to address for many years: Cabin Fever, Scurvy, Cougar; all these are systems trying to encourage players to be more mobile. Do they do it well? I'm not sure, but previously it was possible to survive indefinitely e.g. at Jackrabbit's Island in CH by fasting, collecting sticks, cooking rabbits/boiling water whenever there was a sunny day, maybe beachcombing. That's a pretty boring gameplay loop even for ultra-endgame.

Given this (and the general lack of Crafting and Basebuilding) I think it's probably safe to assume that the player being mobile, or encouraging that behavior is a design pillar for TLD given how much attention has been put into trying to encourage this behavior.

Mechanics Encouraging Mobility in TLD

• I see Cabin Fever, Scurvy and Cougars (as they were implemented) as questions to a mobility problem
• higher skill TLD players tend to encourage behavior where the player moves around the region/world more.
• Raph has said a number of things in Tweets, Forum Posts, Dev Diaries, Announcement videos, etc over the years, about trying to address this issue. Either trying to kill players earlier, 'TLD isn't designed to be a game where players are meant to survive forever' and similar sentiments.
• Decay/Ruining mechanics also encourage mobility
• Gunsmithing/Milling Machine/Forges being static locations (and quite limited ones) as well as coal (generally) being a distance from forges clearly encourages mobile gameplay (I think DP counter-balances this with it's relatively high wolf concentration).
• Beachcombing, especially for late-game worlds

Personally I'm less a fan of Cabin Fever, it feels a little forced/contrived, but if it had a toggle at worldgen I'd still leave it. I quite enjoy Scurvy/Cougars and include them in all my saves. I quite liked the Cougar, especially on Misery Mode (where it was 10 days to appear, lasts in region for 10 days). Really felt like you were being chased by the kitty-cat. 😺

• Quite like the idea of the Cougar being a "boss" mob: one that the player is generally encouraged to avoid (and punished, perhaps severely if encountered).
• Also like the idea of the Cougar being a "pursuer" type enemy, following the player around the world
• Or some 'stealth' mob, which tries to stalk/follow and ambush the player

2 hours ago, purplebluegreen said:

Cougar was a selling point to me to by the dlc

I agree. Don't have any hard data on it, I'd suspect given how much players have/talk about the Cougar that this is the case for many. Judging from Hinterland's response to feedback about the Cougar, I think this is clearly the case (as well as the Cougar being on the pre-TFTFT poll and making the cut).

2 hours ago, purplebluegreen said:

...I don't want it to be optional mechanic outside the custom mod but instead be well  implemented creature as every other animal in the game.

I don't mind content being optional. If players aren't ready for something, they can always disable it. I suppose there's an argument for "shared experiences", e.g. like with Cheat Death changing the "permadeath" experience. But that is optional as well (and imo, fairly punishing even if it's used).

Edited July 3 by Veskaida

[ManicManiac]

On 7/2/2024 at 8:03 PM, dahemac said:

... Raphael says, “We have a clear vision for THE LONG DARK.” ... 

And it seems to me that you have taken that one sentence out of context and perhaps applied your own suspicions, speculations, and unqualified assumptions.

However, it's not the first time I've seen this sort of thing lately, so I would like to take a moment to encourage everyone not to try and put words into other people's mouths.

 

Edited July 4 by ManicManiac

[Mroz4k]

On 7/3/2024 at 3:03 AM, dahemac said:

Why? This is the thing I do not understand about a subsection of TLD’s community. Where does this controlling behaviour come from? What is the point of it? What is “too long?” Why do you care at all how anyone else plays the game or how long I hang out in a region?

That is how it was always designed to be. And its a good thing, too - the more time one spends just sitting in your base, the sooner you get bored of the game, because routine sets in. Of course, most skilled players avoid it by setting their own goals to move them around the map, but some people need a bit of an encouragement. But, of course, this might not apply to you - its important to remember that its impossible to satisfy everyone. Cabin fever was also not popular, it basically fullfills the same mechanic on a smaller scale.

Point with cougar is, that if you dont want it to chase you out of a region, you can disable it. So, you actually have the option. But, if you want its drops, tough luck - you will need to deal with it as is, just like everyone else. Its a choice everyone gets.

Routine is the greatest killer in TLD - as it can kill ones taste for TLD as a game for a time altogether.

Of course, I am glad people voice their opinions, it can be great feedback. But its also important to remember there are many people who want many things...

Luckily this is where mods can really help to tweak the original game to fit individual tastes

[SlugMug]

I would like to preface this by saying I am NOT a game dev, so it is entirely possible I have no idea what I am talking about. I am also going of the assumption that people like the OP's idea for spawning the cougar a little behind the player.

It seems like the main reason behind the cougar's initial design is so players cannot trivialize a dangerous animal with cheese, ie sniping from spots the AI cannot reach, but what if you were to give the cougar some sort of invincibility mechanic where it cannot be harmed if it detects you sitting in an unreachable area? Obviously that info would have go be conveyed to the player somehow, like maybe it kicks up a cloud of snow and makes its "escape" (despawns) whenever you enter an unreachable spot. It's a little unrealistic but, I feel like people can get over it. Of course, players could abuse this slightly by repeatedly ducking into safe spots just to make the cougar leave, but they will still have to confront it eventually. as for what determining if the player is in a safe spot it could maybe be as simple as just triggering if the AI has no path to the player. This could also be used to make sure it doesn't even try to attack if you're just camping a safe spot. It shouldn't matter too much if it triggers unnecessarily as it won't take long to make another attempt on the player. I feel like this would remove enough cheese that the cougar would be a terrifying disaster to average players and still being a real threat to experienced ones.

Also just as an after thought, maybe the cougar won't "escape" if the player has no ranged weapons, instead just waiting at the exit of whatever safe spot the player is hiding in.

[Veskaida]

3 hours ago, SlugMug said:

It seems like the main reason behind the cougar's initial design is so players cannot trivialize a dangerous animal with cheese

Perhaps, though I might re-phrase Cougar "cheese" to "interactability", but yes I agree. I see "cheese" as generally unintended behavior, which I hope for most games would be kept to a minimum.

The Cougar had relatively low levels of player engagement compared to other TLD mobs, with most player decisions involving avoiding cougars and only really 2 decisions the cougar itself ("Strike" or "Desperation"). From what I've seen, I think this is the main criticism of the Cougar as implemented and I hope this is addressed with the rework.

Player-Cougar interactions (v2.29) spoilers for predux Cougar behavior:

Spoiler

• Spending time in a region (provoking the Encroachment timer)
• Bombing The Cougar's den (in only 1 region in all of GBI)
• Hiding indoors (Cougar could not attack the player indoors)
• Post-struggle ("Strike" (take 1 shot) or "Desperation" (basically 'do nothing'))

From what Raph and Hinterland have said regarding the Cougar, I believe their intention was to design/implement it as a serious threat ("alpha predator", "... maybe your greatest challenge yet") and likely something most players would/should avoid: like a 'boss', or perhaps a 'pursuer-type enemy' (e.g. like "Nemesis" in the "Resident Evil" franchise), particularly with how it behaved in Misery mode (10 days to spawn, 10 days residence). Comparing Player-Cougar interactions VS other mobs in TLD (Wolves, Deer, etc.) was quite limited, with most involving the player not interacting with the Cougar directly but rather a region (e.g. spending more time in-region summons Cougar, leaving the region avoids it). From my perception the Cougar was implemented as intended by Hinterlands as a finished product (based on how other TFTFT content has been implemented), minus bugs.

3 hours ago, SlugMug said:

but what if you were to give the cougar some sort of invincibility mechanic where it cannot be harmed if it detects you sitting in an unreachable area?

I've seen other comments like this, and yes there are similarities to "Old Bear" in the Challenges "The Hunted: Part 1 and 2", and to an extent "The Darkwalker" from "Escape The Darkwalker"; so Hinterlands has created some content like this in the past.

As someone who has completed these challenges and played "The Hunted: Part 1" as a 'lived-in world' (trying to survive against an invincible bear for hundreds of days) this is fun for a limited time and gets old/frustrating when you learn enough of the mob's spawning/AI behavior where it becomes predictable. I would be opposed to the Cougar being an invincible mob or behaving like Old Bear/Darkwalker, though I can see similarities or ideas which might make engaging gameplay.

3 hours ago, SlugMug said:

maybe the cougar won't "escape" if the player has no ranged weapons, instead just waiting at the exit of whatever safe spot the player is hiding in.

I would be against this for a few reasons:

• I feel a major design aspect of The Cougar is that it is an "ambush predator", and the behavior you describe seems to deviate from that.
• This behavior seems closer to how non-Cougar mobs behave in TLD, and this could make the Cougar less original or interesting

Edited July 6 by Veskaida