TLD breaking my internet access.

[dahemac]

A recent change to something has changed the behaviour of my computer when TLD is running. I have normally had a browser window open on a second window when playing TLD or any game. Using the internet while TLD was running was previously never a problem.

However recently, since the last update(¿?), launching TLD prevents my computer from accessing the internet. My internet connection is lost once the game menu appears. The LAN and other computers are unaffected. But the computer TLD is running on loses its internet connection.

I am on a mac. TLD is from Steam. This does not happen with other Steam games running. It has never happened with any other software and I don’t even understand how it could happen.

I have reported it. I got no response.

Is this happening to anyone else? Could anyone test it?

[dahemac]

Crickets? Really? I would have thought this was a serious development.

And it is definitely an issue. I have an internet connection right now. If I launch TLD it disables my internet connection on this computer. When I quit TLD the internet connection returns immediately. TLD is now an internet shutoff switch? I don’t know how this could possibly happen. But no application ought to be able to do this.

[stratvox]

Well, you're going to hear crickets because this is not a support channel, and I bet you're the only person experiencing this. I mean, I too have a hard time even understanding how TLD could do that. TBH that sounds like a major fault on the part of the OS; there's no way a program being run by a non-admin user should be able to shut down the network. Is your mac also up to date with fixes? There have been some major security problems found and fixed in the global tcp/ip stack which has also resulted in all vendors putting out updates to close the bug; it may be that you need to update your computer's operating system.

As for the support portal, I've used it extensively. You can usually expect to wait a while before they get back to you. However, it all gets logged. Good bug reports are key; if you're able to show good evidence with a clear description to reproduce the problem, it's a lot easier for them to fix it.

If you want to get help from Hinterland,  here's the support portal for TLD: https://hinterlandgames.zendesk.com/hc/en-us. Click on "report an issue" in the top bar and fill out the form. Post any video to youtube or something and link to it in the comment box instead of uploading directly, but you can hammer up quite a few debug screenshots etc. I think it tops out at like five per report, or maybe eight? Been a while.... anyway. Put in your bug report there along with anything you can think of to demonstrate the problem; screenshots showing networking errors while tld's running for example. It must be quite frustrating; losing internet access during the game would be a complete show stopper for me. Is it possible it's running TLD in some kind of virtual machine or something weird like that? 

Edited January 17 by stratvox
fixed link

[dahemac]

58 minutes ago, stratvox said:

Well, you're going to hear crickets because this is not a support channel, and I bet you're the only person experiencing this.

It would be strange if I am the only person experiencing this. Are you suggesting that the fates are picking on me? That would be a technical support problem indeed.

As I mentioned, I have reported the problem to support. The gods only know how many times I have used the support portal, particularly to let them know about sad polygons. But thanks.

My mac is running the latest security updates for the OS I am running.

This is a new problem. It started recently possibly with the v2.26 update. But I am not sure. I was recently forced to upgrade from Mojave to Catalina. That could have something to do with it. But as I said, it is only TLD that is doing this. And it is sure as a light switch. Start up TLD — no internet.

I suppose it could be some paternalistic nonsense with updated Apple SIP. The thing is it is hard to tell, since increasingly macs give zero feedback about what they are doing or why. And of course, that is why I asked this community.

Edited January 17 by dahemac
spelling error

[nautofon]

In what way is your internet access broken?

Is the breakage permanent, or does the connection come back after quitting TLD? What kind of IP addresses are shown in the network system preferences (with TLD running vs. not running)? Can you ping local hosts? Internet hosts? Can you resolve DNS names? Can you load web pages in the Steam overlay? How about other non-default browsers? How about other protocols—does email via IMAP and SMTP work, for example? These are some of the questions that might be useful for diagnosing the issue.

FWIW, I have zero internet issues with TLD on Catalina.

But macOS 10.15 (Catalina) itself is very outdated. I think the oldest version that still receives (very limited) support from Apple is currently macOS 12 (Monterey). If you don't have to run an older version, you should probably upgrade to macOS 14 (Sonoma), which is the current version and the only one fully supported by Apple with security updates etc.

[Dr. S.]

It's very hard to give suggestions because everyone's network setup is different. Also, I'm no expert, but here are some things to look at think about ...

First, have you tested this with different web browsers?

What does Airport Utility show? (This is probably only relevant if you're on wifi, not a wired connection.)

Does the network control panel (first pane of System Preferences -> Network) show an IP address? Does this change when you start/stop TLD? (You should also see a green dot next to at least one of the icons on the left.)

If you open a terminal window and type something like "ping amazon.com" (no quotes) while TLD is running, what is the output?

You say that "The LAN and other computers are unaffected." What does this mean? If there are other computers on your local network, can you still contact them when TLD is running?

 

Edited January 17 by Dr. S.

[dahemac]

Replying to nautofon and Dr. S.

My internet connection only on this specific computer does not work while TLD is running. As soon as I quit TLD normal internet is restored.

Neither the Ethernet settings and addresses nor the TCPIP addresses change while TLD is running. I normally do not use WiFi, because I have Ethernet, but turning WiFi on doesn’t help.

“Can you ping local hosts? Internet hosts? Can you resolve DNS names?” No, not while TLD is running.

I cannot send or receive email while TLD is running.

Super weirdly, iMessage seems unaffected? WTaF??

Incidentally I have tried disabling Norton AntiVirus. TLD still undermines my internet connection. This same NAV was running on this machine before when this was not happening.

While TLD is running, this machine cannot connect with other machines on the LAN/WiFi. I can connect fine if TLD is not running. The other machines using the WiFi, LAN and internet are unaffected. So, it appears that TLD is somehow interfering with my ability to connect to the LAN at all.

I have tested this with different browsers. They do not work while TLD is running. The steam overlay does some stuff while TLD is running, but I suspect that it is only the cached bits. Trying to load the store page in Steam just returns some text.

In Terminal ping amazon.com works when TLD is not running, lots of pinging. It does not do anything while TLD is running.

 

[nautofon]

So just to be clear: "ping 10.0.1.1" works before launching the game, but not after launching it? That's really weird.

If you have stuff like antivirus installed, or Little Snitch, firewall apps, anything like that, yeah, it could easily cause such issues I suppose. That would certainly be the prime suspect here. But you said you disabled it. Still, you could try booting the Mac in safe mode, which I think prevents most or all extensions of that kind from loading.

https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/start-up-your-mac-in-safe-mode-mh21245/10.15/mac/10.15

You could also create a new user account on the same machine and try from there.

[SpanishMoss]

I'm not a mac user, but you could try looking for a way to prevent TLD from being able to access the internet since you don't need the internet to play. I don't know if this is possible.

You could also try in-game turning off telemetry under accessibility. 

[dahemac]

I don’t think TLD is accessing the internet.

Also, telemetry is off.

 

Edited January 18 by dahemac
I made an error.

[Dr. S.]

This is certainly very strange! And annoying I’m sure. 

My other suggestion right now is to roll back the version of TLD in Steam and see if that makes a difference. If the problem persists with older versions maybe it derives from the recent OS update rather than the TLD update. 

The suggestion to create a new user account and try from there is good too. 

Do you have a firewall turned on in the Security Preferences? I wonder if a port is getting blocked for some reason. 

[dahemac]

4 hours ago, nautofon said:

So just to be clear: "ping 10.0.1.1" works before launching the game, but not after launching it? That's really weird.

If you have stuff like antivirus installed, or Little Snitch, firewall apps, anything like that, yeah, it could easily cause such issues I suppose. That would certainly be the prime suspect here. But you said you disabled it. Still, you could try booting the Mac in safe mode, which I think prevents most or all extensions of that kind from loading.

https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/start-up-your-mac-in-safe-mode-mh21245/10.15/mac/10.15

You could also create a new user account on the same machine and try from there.

It is really weird.

I do not have firewall turned. The settings in NAV that are called Firewall, I can turn them off and it does not make a difference. And as I say, NAV has been running on this machine for many months (years?) it has not caused a problem before.

Today I learned that Steam and TLD do not work in safe mode.

I may try again with SIP disabled. However every time I restart this machine now that I have installed Catalina, the next Time Machine backup takes like two hours. Something that mds is doing I think? It sure is bothering my TM backup drive right now. I usually don’t turn the machine off anymore because of this.

[Dr. S.]

I must say I’m very suspicious of NAV.  What you’re seeing sounds like application blocking somehow got turned on inadvertently for TLD. See, for example

https://support.norton.com/sp/en/us/home/current/solutions/v117055450#

Disclaimer: I have never run antivirus software under macOS 10 or later. I don’t think it’s necessary or advisable. On new Macs at work it gets installed automatically by IT, but the also give me admin access, so it never survives day 1. 

[nautofon]

Yeah, irrespective of whether or not "antivirus" does anything positive in the first place (and the answer to that is far less certain to be "yes" than it may seem), such software tends to be a troublemaker.

1 hour ago, dahemac said:

Today I learned that Steam and TLD do not work in safe mode.

I see. Didn't know that. That's a bummer.

So what I would do next if my system was affected by this issue is to manually disable stuff that safe mode should have disabled, in particular all non-macOS system-wide launch agents/daemons and kernel extensions. These should all be in /Library. Then reboot and try TLD in that new user account. The idea is to find out which software installed on the machine is causing this issue. If the network does work when all that stuff is removed, add extensions etc. back in until you've identified the culprit.

Do be aware, however, that messing with /Library manually is not entirely without risk.

[dahemac]

4 hours ago, Dr. S. said:

I must say I’m very suspicious of NAV.  What you’re seeing sounds like application blocking somehow got turned on inadvertently for TLD. See, for example

https://support.norton.com/sp/en/us/home/current/solutions/v117055450#

Disclaimer: I have never run antivirus software under macOS 10 or later. I don’t think it’s necessary or advisable. On new Macs at work it gets installed automatically by IT, but the also give me admin access, so it never survives day 1. 

Sadly, Application Blocking is off in NAV. And if I turn it on (just to check and turn it off again) there is nothing in the list.

Nothing has changed in NAV since before this problem started. However, I am thinking of uninstalling NAV. Maybe I will try that.

[SpanishMoss]

What about putting TLD on that application-blocking list?

[dahemac]

I want to thank everyone who helped me with this. Your kindness is greatly appreciated.

I removed Norton Antivirus. I ran the file remover in terminal to expunge it in its entirety from my computer.

And that apparently fixed the problem.

It was NAV all along. And apparently the only way you can really turn NAV off is to utterly delete everything about it from your system. 🤦🏽‍♂️

So again. Thank you to this very kind and helpful community for helping me to sort this out. You are all grand.

[Dr. S.]

Congrats!

[SpanishMoss]

If you ask most people who work with computers regularly, they will tell you Norton anti-virus is a virus in it of itself.

Whenever I've gotten a new computer with Norton or McAfee, I always remove it immediately.

[dahemac]

8 hours ago, SpanishMoss said:

If you ask most people who work with computers regularly, they will tell you Norton anti-virus is a virus in it of itself.

Whenever I've gotten a new computer with Norton or McAfee, I always remove it immediately.

I have been using NAV, and once upon a time NUM, since the 1990s. I had never had any problems with Norton Antivirus before. Although at some point they sold me NIS and it was useless.

As things stand now. I can’t have it running if it blocks my internet. So, bye bye NAV.

[SpanishMoss]

Of course you're a mac user but ever since windows defender came out, freeware/cheap anti-virus programs have been obsolete. I don't know if apple has a built-in anti virus 

[dahemac]

16 hours ago, SpanishMoss said:

Of course you're a mac user but ever since windows defender came out, freeware/cheap anti-virus programs have been obsolete. I don't know if apple has a built-in anti virus 

NAV has been finding frequent windows viruses from time to time in incoming emails on and off. Then deleting the infected email folder so that I had to recover emails over and over again from my Time Machine backup. So, I would rather have antivirus, like what NAV was in 1999. But I can’t have it interfering with my ability to use my computer for normal things. That is what NIS did for the day or two I had it on my old computer. It was so paternalistic that it was useless and had to be removed. I guess that is true now of NAV more generally. I will contact Norton to discover if it was incompatibility with Catalina. But I think what is inevitable is that I am going to cancel NAV altogether.