Bear hunting and bear behaviour?

[artmunki]

So far as I've been able to tell, bones at a bear cave do indicate that particular bear spawn to be active (and therefore no bones mean that bear's not gonna show up in this playthrough), but I'm not sure they're necessarily present every day - not quite sure about that yet tho.

My take on the moose scratches is that they serve as markers in regions where there's a single moose spawn but more than one possible location, so you know which area to keep an eye on if you're looking for moose. The scratches seem to spawn at the start of your game with all the other inanimate RNG stuff in the world and won't change during that playthrough (same goes for the bear bones too btw), so that's the location the moose will always be when it decides to show up in a given region. This is why there are no scratches in DP or CH, as those two regions only have one possible spawn location each, so experienced players already know where a moose might show up. Not quite sure about the airfield yet, as I've only seen the moose in one location there so far, and can't remember if there were any scratches.

Of course, the Trapper's moose seems to be an exception to the basic rule, as that can turn up as and when it likes (but not nearly often enough ;p), and won't have scratches even when it's the only active spawn in the region (happened to me a few times). I guess Hinterland kinda know that Trapper's is a favourite homebase for many players, so there's a good chance you'll be around there quite frequently anyway. The BI moose can all be present at any time too despite having no scratches - even all 3 at the same time, on occasion - but this doesn't actually break the rule, since there's three potential, independent spawns in that region, not just the one. In my headcannon BI is kinda like the breeding ground for the island's moose population. 

I'd love to see more wandering behaviour for the moose. Like, it might not change anything for DP or maybe CH, but in the bigger multi-location regions the moose could sorta pop up in any of the possible locations during your playthrough, so it isn't always the same spot that gets all that meat. Couple that with those dynamically-generated scratches, maybe showing up a day or two before the moose itself actually arrives so you'd have the chance of spotting scratches as you pass through, and you could hang about to wait for it to show face. And then the moose hangs about there for a few days or whatever, and once it leaves the area the scratches would fade over the course of a week or something, so you'd have to learn to distinguish between fresh and faded markers - another nice wee bit of fieldcraft for the game. Throw in a few more possible spawn sites  around the island (but still only a single moose per region ... except for the breeding ground ;p), and going on a moose hunt becomes a lot more engaging even in the long game.

I know this would be a big change to moose behaviour, but it could fit just fine with the description of the global wildlife refresh that's already in the pipeline, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for now.

[LostRealist]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:28 PM, artmunki said:

I'd love to see more wandering behaviour for the moose. Like, it might not change anything for DP or maybe CH, but in the bigger multi-location regions the moose could sorta pop up in any of the possible locations during your playthrough, so it isn't always the same spot that gets all that meat. Couple that with those dynamically-generated scratches, maybe showing up a day or two before the moose itself actually arrives so you'd have the chance of spotting scratches as you pass through, and you could hang about to wait for it to show face. And then the moose hangs about there for a few days or whatever, and once it leaves the area the scratches would fade over the course of a week or something, so you'd have to learn to distinguish between fresh and faded markers - another nice wee bit of fieldcraft for the game. Throw in a few more possible spawn sites  around the island (but still only a single moose per region ... except for the breeding ground ;p), and going on a moose hunt becomes a lot more engaging even in the long game.

 

Yes, please. I would love it so much if the hunting mechanics were more involved like that, at least for the big fat trophy game. If it took you much more than a passing glance at an area to know whether it spawned or not because it's either standing around there or it isn't. And then even knowing that it did spawn not being enough to find it super easily, because it can cover half a map. I'd love it.

 

On a related note, I believe what you state about their markings to be generally correct. My theory is that it works the same way as bears afterall - at the start of a game, the game decides on a number of spawns depending on your settings, that will actually be active and have the chance of spawnin a moose, and these locations will recieve the markings and are the only places that can spawn them during that run. Much in the same way that a bear cave that is not active at the start of a game will never be active. The active spawns are marked with the rubbings and if the game ever decides to spawn a moose in that region, it will be there.

So yeah, basically what you said.

I believe bears are a little less random than moose though. It seems at the same settings, you always get more or less the same bears, with some of them always being absolutely guaranteed and very little variation. I can't say that appears to be the case with moose spawns - which ones get activated at the start seems to be much more random.

[AdamvR]

On 10/23/2023 at 8:28 PM, artmunki said:

Not quite sure about the airfield yet, as I've only seen the moose in one location there so far, and can't remember if there were any scratches.

I've met moose in FA in two different locations in two different saves, do not recall any markings in either of them - also because these are not particularly forested areas...

 

location 1:
from the hangar go parallel to the mountains on your right and the empty field/runway on your left. Follow this direction to the other end of the mostly empty area, there will be a small lake, I found the moose there, close to the bunnies.

location 2:
Looking out on the balcony of the house on the island, the moose was right ahead on he lake, close to the other side, near where a corpse sits on a little hump.
It was easily reachable through the tunnel to the cove.

I used to rely on the markings in a way, that if they were not present on a possible location, I believed the moose will not spawn on those locations in that playthrough.
Since then someone brought my attention to it, that it is not at all consistent (i.e., it can spawn without markings)
Even if there were markings, it spawns so rarely, that actively looking for it seemed futile to me - so I resorted to the tactic: If I see one, I try to shoot it, otherwise not looking.
If I really needed one, I went to one of the locations, where I met it frequently, in BI and HRV.

Seeing it to become more consistent and even dynamic, sounds like a great idea...:)
 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by AdamvR

[artmunki]

10 hours ago, LostRealist said:

I believe bears are a little less random than moose though. It seems at the same settings, you always get more or less the same bears, with some of them always being absolutely guaranteed and very little variation. I can't say that appears to be the case with moose spawns - which ones get activated at the start seems to be much more random.

Actually yeah, that's a really good point - most of the bear spawns are essentially guaranteed. I think only PV and ML have variable spawns, where it pays to check for bones. The rest have one, two or three bears, always in the same territories. Some of them have longer patrol routes than others so may be harder to find (or easier to avoid ;p), but they'll usually be about somewhere. Offhand, bear frequency per region is something like this:

AC - 1 always active
BrP - 1? (I rarely spend much time in Blackrock so I'm not as familiar with this region, but I've only ever seen one bear there in survivor. I may have found another den cave at some point, but I can't be sure)
BI - 1 always active
BR - 1 always active
CH - 3 always active
DP - 1 always active (passes what I think is the safest place on the island to hunt a bear)
FM - 2 always active
FA - 2 always active
HRV - 2 always active (tho I'm still not totally sure where one of the dens is located)
MT - 1 always active (maybe the smallest patrol area, and you'll always find it at the same place)
ML - 0-2? variable (4 potential den caves. I think I've had one or two playthroughs with no bears at all in ML, and often there's only one, but I'm pretty sure there can sometimes be two)
PV - 3+? variable (I think there's like six potential bear dens in the region, and I'm pretty sure at least three will be active in each playthrough. Plus I don't think I've ever had a playthrough where the active spawns didn't include the one with the very long patrol route that passes PV farm, so that bear may be guaranteed)
TWM - 3 always active

The always-active spawns will always range from the same bone-marked den caves, while only the active spawns will have bone markers in the variable regions.

As for moose (potential spawn locations):

AC - 2 marked
BrP - 2 marked (I think)
BI - 3 (independent sites, any of which can have a moose spawn any time you visit. unmarked)
BR - 2 marked
CH - 1 unmarked
DP - 1 unmarked
FM - 3 marked
FA - 3? (I've only ever seen one moose location myself, but I have heard about two others. not sure any of them are marked. could this be like another BI?)
HRV - 2 marked
MT - 2 that I know of, one of which will be marked each playthrough. I have heard of a third,  but never seen it
ML - 2/3 (two or three potential spawns which I think are always marked, plus 1 "bonus" unmarked potential spawn by Trapper's. sometimes the Trapper's one is the only active spawn)
PV - 2 potential marked spawn locations, but I think one of those covers a larger area, with 3 nearby potential spots for the moose to favour)
TWM - 2 marked

[LostRealist]

15 hours ago, artmunki said:

PV - 3+? variable (I think there's like six potential bear dens in the region, and I'm pretty sure at least three will be active in each playthrough. Plus I don't think I've ever had a playthrough where the active spawns didn't include the one with the very long patrol route that passes PV farm, so that bear may be guaranteed)

Just now ran into him again as well, I think that bear is indeed a fixed spawn, and the bear that lives in the beach forest and patrols around the outbuildings might also be. Where there definitely is variation is in the two bears that are kinda "stacked on top" of one another if you head uphill south from the farmstead. Those guys seem to be dependant on your game difficulty/spawn rate settings.

Then there's the bear east of Thompson's Crossing who is my third bet on the fixed spawns in PV.

Interesting what you say about the moose though, with it having several exact spots around its spawn there. I only ever met the birch forest moose there once, so I can't confirm, but the way the marking are spread in that forest would surely suggest it.

 

And since this is turning into the "Wildlife advice" thread, I have another quick one: Ptarmigans do appear in a custom run that was started before installing the DLC, right?

Edited October 28, 2023 by LostRealist

[UpUpAway95]

47 minutes ago, LostRealist said:

Just now ran into him again as well, I think that bear is indeed a fixed spawn, and the bear that lives in the beach forest and patrols around the outbuildings might also be. Where there definitely is variation is in the two bears that are kinda "stacked on top" of one another if you head uphill south from the farmstead. Those guys seem to be dependant on your game difficulty/spawn rate settings.

Then there's the bear east of Thompson's Crossing who is my third bet on the fixed spawns in PV.

Interesting what you say about the moose though, with it having several exact spots around its spawn there. I only ever met the birch forest moose there once, so I can't confirm, but the way the marking are spread in that forest would surely suggest it.

 

And since this is turning into the "Wildlife advice" thread, I have another quick one: Ptarmigans do appear in a custom run that was started before installing the DLC, right?

I don't know about custom runs started before the DLC, but they are definitely spawning in any custom runs I've started within the last couple of weeks.

[artmunki]

8 hours ago, LostRealist said:

Just now ran into him again as well, I think that bear is indeed a fixed spawn, and the bear that lives in the beach forest and patrols around the outbuildings might also be. Where there definitely is variation is in the two bears that are kinda "stacked on top" of one another if you head uphill south from the farmstead. Those guys seem to be dependant on your game difficulty/spawn rate settings.

Then there's the bear east of Thompson's Crossing who is my third bet on the fixed spawns in PV.

Interesting what you say about the moose though, with it having several exact spots around its spawn there. I only ever met the birch forest moose there once, so I can't confirm, but the way the marking are spread in that forest would surely suggest it.

Yeah, I'd agree that the Thompson's Crossing bear and the birch forest bear that patrols near the outbuildings are probably guaranteed too, but their caves are both out of the way enough that I doubt I've even passed them every playthrough, and I rarely spend much time around the Crossing or the outbuildings once I've looted them, so I'm less sure of those. The other three spawn caves are definitely variable tho - always make a point of checking which are active in each game, since those three bears patrol along routes I often use, and it's good to know where I have to be watchful. I suspect only one of those three is active in each playthrough, but that may be dependent on difficulty/settings, or maybe it's just RNG. I have heard of another potential den cave in the region, but I've never seen bones in that cave or a bear anywhere near it, so I'm not at all sure about that one.

The birch forest moose markings are indeed spread over a wide area, and for a long time I thought the moose there always spawned just across the river from the outbuildings (near a fallen tree where there are usually rabbits too). Since then I've also found it in a clearing between some big rocks near the Lonely Homestead ruins, and I've heard it sometimes also likes a spot at the edge of the forest too, tho I've yet to see it there myself. I haven't seen it yet in my current game either, tho the scratches for that area are up (about an in-game year in I think, but I haven't been spending a lot of time in PV). I think it always favours the same spot each playthrough, but I can't say for sure. In my last run it certainly showed up at the spot near Lonely Homestead fairly regularly, often along with the bear, which sometimes patrols through the same clearing - the riverside cave near there had a BIG meatpile! ;D

[LostRealist]

12 hours ago, artmunki said:

Yeah, I'd agree that the Thompson's Crossing bear and the birch forest bear that patrols near the outbuildings are probably guaranteed too, but their caves are both out of the way enough that I doubt I've even passed them every playthrough, and I rarely spend much time around the Crossing or the outbuildings once I've looted them, so I'm less sure of those. The other three spawn caves are definitely variable tho - always make a point of checking which are active in each game, since those three bears patrol along routes I often use, and it's good to know where I have to be watchful. I suspect only one of those three is active in each playthrough, but that may be dependent on difficulty/settings, or maybe it's just RNG. I have heard of another potential den cave in the region, but I've never seen bones in that cave or a bear anywhere near it, so I'm not at all sure about that one.

The birch forest moose markings are indeed spread over a wide area, and for a long time I thought the moose there always spawned just across the river from the outbuildings (near a fallen tree where there are usually rabbits too). Since then I've also found it in a clearing between some big rocks near the Lonely Homestead ruins, and I've heard it sometimes also likes a spot at the edge of the forest too, tho I've yet to see it there myself. I haven't seen it yet in my current game either, tho the scratches for that area are up (about an in-game year in I think, but I haven't been spending a lot of time in PV). I think it always favours the same spot each playthrough, but I can't say for sure. In my last run it certainly showed up at the spot near Lonely Homestead fairly regularly, often along with the bear, which sometimes patrols through the same clearing - the riverside cave near there had a BIG meatpile! ;D

I am currently in PV in my current run. As this conversation neatly implies already, I find wildlife there to be the most interesting.

I have bear spawns set to "Low" and the three common culprits are all there - and I had a pretty interesting meeting with a bear up at the crash site who totally got the drop on me while I was looting suitcases. Turns out the cargo hold on the bottom of the fuselage is a safe spot to shoot him in the snout from.

That's four bears already - quite a bunch for "Low" in my opinion but the math kinda makes sense: Three "free" bears you always get, +1 for Low setting, +2 on Medium, +3 on High... and then you're really wedged. I had never run into the bear at the crash site before and I do spend a lot of time in this region. The den close to the transition to Winding River appears to be empty - although without a distress pistol and after a gruesome treck to get the technical backpack on day one I find myself not curious enough at the moment to investigate that any closer.

No moose yet. I had the birch forest moose on my last run and it stood in a very neat spot - just at the edge of the forest, almost due north from the outbuildings, within range of the shed and tractor standing around between the hay bales. That was quite convenient, as I imagine getting a decent shot on him inside the forest would be fairly difficult.

What I'm noticing about PV in my current run is that it is absolutely crawling with wolves. My setting is at Medium for them I believe and they are everywhere and the packs are huge. There were six wolves roaming the area around the Outbuildings when I first got there, four wolves directly west of Thompson's Crossing and massive litters of them across the river east from there almost all the way up to the Point of Disagreement. Interestingly, the pack that always, always, always spawned for me in the orchard behind the farmstead is missing completely. Feels like the Wildlife Reset has already begun for me here.

Edited October 29, 2023 by LostRealist

[LostRealist]

4 hours ago, LostRealist said:

No moose yet.

Scratch that, please - I'm ingame no five minutes after I said that and found him deep within the birch forest.

[artmunki]

It could just be me, but I'm starting to think that moose spawns might be even more varied than I already thought. Not only are so many of the spawn locations variable, but I suspect the spawn frequency of active sites might be sort graded too.

In my last run (1201 days before a timberwolf pack nipped me to death in Blackrock), the active moose site in PV seemed to be occupied almost half the times I passed there, and the TWM location (my usual, by the wing), MT site (in the Basin), and FM (Marsh Ridge) were fairly reliable too. Most of the others were sorta hit-or-miss as usual, but in my whole run I only saw the Quonset moose twice I think, and DP only once. Fair enough, I really didn't spend much time around the Quonset, so no reason to expect to see that one often, but I did spend a fair bit of time in DP (said it before - I like beachcombing ;p), and I made a point of checking every time I was in the area. In my current run (a little over 400 days in) I've yet to see a moose in PV - I know where the scratches are, but I don't yet know which of the 3 spots is active, and I have been checking. Yet every time I've been to TWM ... hello moose! And this time it's the one near the cabin - this is also my first run I've ever seen a moose there, tho I have had scratches around that site once or twice in previous runs.

I still maintain that the BI spawns and Trapper's moose likely have their own rules, and I recognise that the infrequency of moose spawns in general means it's just a question of whether or not you happen to be in the right area at the right time, but I'm really starting to think that the divine RNG might actually have more of a hand in moose spawns than just which are active. Thoughts?

[Leeanda]

38 minutes ago, artmunki said:

It could just be me, but I'm starting to think that moose spawns might be even more varied than I already thought. Not only are so many of the spawn locations variable, but I suspect the spawn frequency of active sites might be sort graded too.

In my last run (1201 days before a timberwolf pack nipped me to death in Blackrock), the active moose site in PV seemed to be occupied almost half the times I passed there, and the TWM location (my usual, by the wing), MT site (in the Basin), and FM (Marsh Ridge) were fairly reliable too. Most of the others were sorta hit-or-miss as usual, but in my whole run I only saw the Quonset moose twice I think, and DP only once. Fair enough, I really didn't spend much time around the Quonset, so no reason to expect to see that one often, but I did spend a fair bit of time in DP (said it before - I like beachcombing ;p), and I made a point of checking every time I was in the area. In my current run (a little over 400 days in) I've yet to see a moose in PV - I know where the scratches are, but I don't yet know which of the 3 spots is active, and I have been checking. Yet every time I've been to TWM ... hello moose! And this time it's the one near the cabin - this is also my first run I've ever seen a moose there, tho I have had scratches around that site once or twice in previous runs.

I still maintain that the BI spawns and Trapper's moose likely have their own rules, and I recognise that the infrequency of moose spawns in general means it's just a question of whether or not you happen to be in the right area at the right time, but I'm really starting to think that the divine RNG might actually have more of a hand in moose spawns than just which are active. Thoughts?

I have to agree..  my main run is just over 600 days and in that time I've seen the pv moose once,same in coastal..  yet dp ash mountain town I haven't seen once...   trappers hasn't been seen either but the unnamed pond one has turned up frequently.as have bleak and bricklayers in BlackRock.. 

I really think it's all random in both senses of the word.. 

It does make it awkward on new runs as Xbox still doesn't get rubbings .

[stratvox]

On 10/18/2023 at 4:45 PM, LostRealist said:

Is this still actually the case? I know the scratch marks used to only indicate possible locations, not active locations, but the fandom wiki says this:

"While wandering within close proximity of a suitable tree, a moose may randomly generate an antler rub on its stump."

Indicating that the rubbings are now dynamically generated by proximity of a moose, meaning they do indeed show active spawns now. Around Day 30 in a Custom run where Moose spawns are set to Medium I am seemingly able to confirm this - spent some time at Quonset with no moose around (thankfully all of the bears though, so I wasn't all alone with the dogs) and there were no rubbings on any of the trees.

I'm pretty sure that this is more an instance of lore, rather than actual game mechanic. You might see a moose rub its antlers on a stump/tree, and there will be moose rubbings around the area(s) where moose can spawn, but the actual rubbings are not generated by a moose rubbing its antlers on a stump/tree.

As far as I'm aware, they've always shown active spawns only, and that's why you sometimes find the rubbings here, or there; for example, the rubbings near the Landing Gear don't always appear in all runs; only when there's a potential for a moose to spawn there. 

As for the moose spawns themselves, I'm pretty sure they're just random, but the odds get juggled based on situation. For example, entering a brand new region and then passing through an active moose spawn ups the weight of an actual spawn occurring compared to a player who's been visiting the spawn daily for a few months... that guy gets to wait.

[LostRealist]

22 minutes ago, stratvox said:

I'm pretty sure that this is more an instance of lore, rather than actual game mechanic. You might see a moose rub its antlers on a stump/tree, and there will be moose rubbings around the area(s) where moose can spawn, but the actual rubbings are not generated by a moose rubbing its antlers on a stump/tree.

As far as I'm aware, they've always shown active spawns only, and that's why you sometimes find the rubbings here, or there; for example, the rubbings near the Landing Gear don't always appear in all runs; only when there's a potential for a moose to spawn there. 

As for the moose spawns themselves, I'm pretty sure they're just random, but the odds get juggled based on situation. For example, entering a brand new region and then passing through an active moose spawn ups the weight of an actual spawn occurring compared to a player who's been visiting the spawn daily for a few months... that guy gets to wait.

 

I agree. After a fairly long break from the game I fell for that misleading passage in the wiki, but my current run definitely confirms the "rubs mark which potential spawn is active" theory. Though I can't say it wouldn't be awesome if the wiki was correct.

Not quite sure of whether or not a player's behaviour can actually influence the odds of a moose actually spawning. If so, I believe the effect would be small enough to not matter much in the sea of randomness - at least that seems to be my experience. It would be very hard to confirm either way.

[stratvox]

I guess for me I've had enough immediate moose upon entering a fresh region that I find it likely the odds are tilted in favour of that. Of course, feeling that and proving that are two different things, but at the same time I can understand why the devs might prefer to have a moose show up to someone on the road; more likely to throw a wrench into whatever it is the player's planning, which makes for unforeseen risks and more interesting gameplay, imho.

I would not be surprised to discover that there are a lot of thumbs on a lot of scales throughout the game with an eye to driving certain kinds of emergent situations requiring improvisational play.