New sprain system needs tuning

[yoli]

Hi, I played TLD again after a few months, the sprain system has changed, now everytime I descend a hill which is steep, I can be assured to get one, two or more sprains whatever I do, even not overloaded, even if I go very slowly, even if I go sideways. Please tune this system so we have a chance not to get sprain if we are cautious (currently playing Wintermute ep2 in difficult mode)

Edited October 26, 2019 by yoli

[sierra 117]

Yeah I agree before the recent changes I've had multiple 100+day runs where I've only had 5-10 sprains for entire run. Now after the update I can easily get this amount in just 2/3 days. Using the exact sane pathways and tactics as before(I.e. zig sagging down steep slopes etc)

I do like the sprain risk indicator. But I definitely think they are far too common now. Especially as now we need bandages for a sprain.  I can see cloth being way too scarce for long runs due to treating hundreds of sprains.

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by sierra 117

[yoli]

Right the accumulation of bandages for each sprain can also turn ridiculous, you may end up as a the marshmallow man after a while. I don't know why this system has changed, it was perfectly tuned in the past I think.

[Saws n Sins]

It's dumb to be honest and I agree. It's like our survivor has never walked a day in his/her life, anf we are learning to walk for the first time (nvm, now that I think about it even a toddler can handle hills better than you can in game). Imagine in real life everytime somebody had to walk up o rdown a hill they get sprains. Is our survivors ankles as thin as a toothpick or something?

It should be how it used to be, falling and struggles can give you sprains. Maybe if over encumbered on hills sure but when I have almost nothing on me I shouldn't sprain my ankles from walking on the smallest incline. The small snow pile on the porch on the pleasent valley farmhouse (one with the closable door) can give you sprains... like really? That tiny little snow pile?

Edited October 28, 2019 by Saws n Sins

[matchstick]

I've found that being overweight and/or tired makes the risk higher. More chance for sprain at that point. I've had my share of them to be sure. 

[ManicManiac]

Honestly I think the sprain system is very well tuned now.  I disagree with most of the assertions made on this thread, but I don't have the time or desire to debate it.

Those that take the system's feedback into account, don't seem to have much of a problem.  I for one, almost never get sprains anymore... the ones I do get are well deserved.  As in traipsing around on slopes trying to goat up to high places to do some mapping.  Other than that, all I do is pay attention to the feedback the system gives me.  I'd wager that if those people who are still having problems would take the time to adjust the way they traverse terrain, I bet they would also rarely get sprains. 

Also, folks know that we can sleep off sprains right?  We don't need bandages to heal them up.  I only ever carry one bandage on me and I only use that in case of wolf attack.

The short version:
The sprain system seems fine to me now.  I almost never get sprains at all.  They are actually incredibly easy to avoid nowadays.
 

[Addendum]
I don't have time or desire to debate... I've had the discussion before and I don't have the time to re-summarize it all right now.  Some of you are probably experiencing bugs... you should report those.  Next time a person gets a sprain from a little pile of snow, I'd recommend taking a screenshot and submiting a bug report.  I have no way to know if those folks are exaggerating... and they are really marching up 45* inclines... or if they really are experiencing a bug.  In either case, I can attest from my experience that I can't find anything wrong with the system as it exists today.

If folks disagree, that's fine - I am not going to argue/debate it today.  I just wanted to give my perspective and what I've experienced along with the others. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by ManicManiac

[yoli]

11 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

The sprain system seems fine to me now.  I almost never get sprains at all.  They are actually incredibly easy to avoid nowadays.

I'd be glad to know how you manage to avoid them on steep slopes. Even when not overloaded, walking carefully and sideways to minimize the angle, I have them.

If we expand the discussion beyond the sprain system, I think there are many more creative ways to make slopes less attractive to the player than accumulating sprains. For instance, if the snow is thick and fresh, we should actually be very much slowed down as our feet would sink into the snow, especially when going down as we are heavier.  Another unfortunate thing which can happen on slopes is that we just fall down and roll if we are not cautious. Instead of making the sprain system more constraining in a questionable way, I would suggest to look into these areas.

Edited October 31, 2019 by yoli

[skyline21]

So many sprains, but typically going up really steep slopes, which I guess is understandable. Occasionally, just off the path going up a snow hill though..

*snowflake falls* 

Oooh god, my ankle! 

[ManicManiac]

@yoli
Fair enough.  I appreciate the civil discourse, I guess I've gotten used to folks getting snide and aggressive as of late... so if my post had come off sharp toned please know that I didn't intend it.

As to how I avoid sprains... it's in keeping with how Raph described the mechanic:  Even when I am encumbered, I just pay attention to the feedback the mechanic gives me.  If I'm traversing up a slope or even small hill and I see the sprain risk indicator, the game is telling me two things.  The first thing it's telling me is that I am currently on what's considered a treat to "rolling my ankle or tripping and spraining my wrist" (this explains why sometimes we might see a sprain indicator pop up on what might seem "a little bump in the snow") - that's essentially a trip hazard (it's not just about really steep slopes).  The second thing that indicator is telling me is that if I keep moving on this hazard (as in continuing to walk along, ignoring the warning indicator) that I could slip, trip, or fall at anytime and suffer a sprain. 

As I've played it seems evident to me that the sprain indicator is all about time...  I mean yes there are many factors (fatigue, encumbrance, slope angle severity, RNG rolls... so on, and so fourth) but what I noticed common to all instances of slope & sprain is time.  It may seem counterintuitive (I ask folks to please remember - sometimes a video just needs to video game), but once on a surface that triggers the sprain warning indicator is when the game will start making rolls against the modifiers on whether or not a sprain is triggered.  It appears to do this in increments (and I've never witnessed it being immediate - in other words there is always time between when we first see the indicator to when we eventually see a sprain) so there is time to act.  All we need to do is get to a surface that does not trigger the sprain risk warning.

The idea is to keep exposure to the risk low.  If you are climbing up a slope and you get find yourself in a risk condition you can either leave the slope, you can find spots along the slope that perhaps are not steep (like on boulders/rocks along the way that have a flat surface you can sort of "rest at" to remove the risk indicator and "reset the system"), and you can also sprint.  I know that sounds nuts, but think about it.  If you are going up a slope and you just have a little ways to go, but your get sprain risk indicator... you can roll the dice and sprint the rest of the way.  That way, you are at least decreasing the exposure time to the risk factor, and therefore "roll the dice" fewer times.  This increases your chances of getting up over that slope before you hit a sprain.

So, while sprains are a real thing to worry about when traversing the world of Great Bear, there are ways to minimize that risk.  However if a player chooses to traverse a lengthy stretch of slope, then that player also needs to accept the risk they are choosing to take.  Trapesing around on slopes or trying to goat up the terrain, then sprains are deserved in those cases.  It's super easy to get around the maps and even avoid wolves and bears without needing to skirt steep slopes (I know a lot of us old timers got used to spidering around all over the place with relative impunity).

(and remember we don't need bandages or pain pills... we just need a place to sleep for 2-4 hours depending on what we've hurt - save those bandages for wolf and bear bites)

 

I do agree there are other potentially really creative ways to makes slopes less attractive, but the assessment that what the Hinterland team chose to implement as being "constraining in a questionable way" is 100% a subjective point of view.  As an opinion, it's subjective by it's very nature.  That's the only reason I popped in to add my perspective.

I just don't think the system is questionable, as has been suggested.  Like I mentioned before, folks here talk about getting frequent sprains but honestly even when I am marching up a steep slope that indicator can sometimes be there a relatively long time before anything does happen (sprain)... Point is, for me to get a sprain nowadays I have to really push my luck... almost to the point of trying to get a sprain. 

As I mentioned previously, it could be a bug if the sprain system is being super sensitive for particular individuals.  However if those individuals never adjusted their play style to take the hazard into account then, sure... they will likely get lots of sprains because they are taking risky paths across the terrain.  If that is the case then it's not the mechanic at all, it's the player.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to two factors...

- Perhaps some are still experiencing bugs (causing the mechanic not to function the way Raph described as the intended function).
- Perhaps some are still going recklessly over every hill and dale without regard to the feedback the game gives them.

In both cases, I'd day is not a problem with the mechanic itself.  I don't doubt some are still having real problems, but I'm not convinced it's because of the mechanic itself.  I'd be more inclined to believe there is a technical problem or a player problem. 

 

4 hours ago, yoli said:

we should actually be very much slowed down as our feet would sink into the snow

What you mention here is already represented by the game.  You walk slower across the snow than you do the paved road or hard ice.  This is meant to represent the fact that the survivor is "trudging" through the show and thus moves a little slower.  I always thought that this was a really nice touch.

 

Granted, I'm not a programmer on the Hinterland team... so these are just my observations and personal experiences with the mechanic in question.  I don't claim to know definitively how it works, I'm just conveying how it appears to behave and work as I play the game. 

Edited October 31, 2019 by ManicManiac

[ManicManiac]

4 hours ago, yoli said:

Even when not overloaded, walking carefully and sideways to minimize the angle

As to your specific example (when you talk about walking sideways - do you mean you are strafing along the slope or just taking the slope at a more graduated angle... if I've misunderstood, please clarify):

While you're walking sideway up a slope to minimize the angle (which is just one factor when the RNG rolls a check), you are also increasing your exposure time (the RNG is rolling checks more times).  You might experiment with taking a more direct route and sprinting to help get you over the hump quicker... this should increase your chances of getting free and clear of the hazard (so to speak).  You could also keep your angle of approach and just try to sprint just to shorten the time if you can't shorten the distance.  Again the longer the risk indicator is present your odds of getting a sprain are greater and greater. 

My recommendation is that if you see the sprain risk indicator come on screen, the idea is to mitigate that as quickly as you can... or accept the risk of getting a sprain if you choose to keep walking on a hazardous surface.

Edited October 31, 2019 by ManicManiac

[yoli]

@ManicManiac: thanks for the write-up  To clarify what I find really annoying in the new sprain system, this is not so much that it triggers much more often than before (well, that's a "pain", but not the main one), it is the fact that in some circumstances (i.e. I was top a of hill and had to go down, I had no other option than going down on steep slope with no option to rest or go on flat rock), sprain is unavoidable (for me!). This is what ruins the experience in my opinion.

Edited November 1, 2019 by yoli

[MarrowStone]

This, sprain chance is not an issue, but some main paths the game wants you to make are unavoidable sprain spots. If you want to live at the mystery lake firewatch hut, you are required every day to risk a sprain when leaving it.