Procedurally Generated Maps (Random Maps)

[Tilt]

The Long Dark is wonderful! However, the feeling of discovery and exploration is really thwarted by the fact that the maps are all the same at every play through in Survival Mode. It would add a lot to the game if the players actually had to explore and discover new regions by themselves, without the help of wiki maps or anything else, but their memory and map making skills (this would give new meaning and importance to the charcoal).

This idea has already been discarded by Creative Director Raphael van Lierop in a forum post over a year ago, but I really think this should be revisited to give the game, specially Survival Mode new life! Not to mention to give the game infinite replayability..!

[Fuarian]

I would LOVE this. But something much simpler would be to add randomization to the existing regions. Like burned down buildings, both at the start of the game and dynamically occurring (i.e. aurora fires). So places like your favorite shelter can suddenly burn down forcing you to move around the region. Speaking of that, certain parts of a region could be blocked off, like fallen trees, snow drifts, buried vehicles and buildings (in snow), blocked transition zones, cave-ins, locked buildings (need to find key or break in), etc... 

[Tilt]

On 7/26/2019 at 3:14 PM, rancid0 said:

the first and probably easiest thing they could do is add a option for random loot (its to easy for advanced players to remember where all the fixed loot in the game is) but Im not sure if random maps would work for this game Im trying to think of a game that uses random maps and i can only think of 7 days to die which in my opinion doesn't do a great job at it the maps just end up being all over the place and too random that it doesn't really make sense.

It would be nice if there was a map editor in the game though so players could upload maps they made for other player to download. 

A lot of games do procedurally generated maps. A few examples:

Minecraft, Left 4 Dead 2, Diablo, No Man's Sky and so many others

[ajb1978]

In the Milton Mailbag at some point Raph mentioned that he liked the idea of a procedually generated highway, where the player was tasked with traveling 100km down this highway on foot for (insert plot device here).  That, I think, would be a great game to play.  If not a sequel to The Long Dark, a spiritual successor at least.

I think it's safe to say we can rule out procedural generation for the current game.

[UpUpAway95]

I don't really see switching the entire game over to procedural generation being feasible or even beneficial at this point in the game's development.  The regions are being designed to work with the story mode and the story is close to being three-fifths finished.  I would hate to see making such a change disrupt the story production at this stage in the game.  Surely, the focus has to be on pushing through with the current generation until the story is complete.  After that, then perhaps I could see them adding a procedurally generated map area along the liens of Raphael's hiighway idea where the player could continue the story beyond the end of the story... a place where, at the end of the story, Will and Astrid can restart the road of the rest of their lives together.

[Tilt]

I don't think it's safe to say we can rule out procedurally generated maps for the current game.

Here are some reasons:

1) It's been done on many games, so it's definitily doable.

2) It wouldn't need to disrupt the story mode. People who favor the story can continue playing just the story if they want. This would be an added benefit to the game.

3) It would add infinite longevity to the game, which is exactly the same thing that happens for sandbox games like Minecraft and No Man's Sky. Minecraft has recently achieved the spot of most sold game of all time and it's been launched over 10 years ago. It wouldn't get this far w/ static maps.

4) Exploration is probably one of the most fun aspects of the game. But exploration only lasts so long as the maps are unknown to the player, after that the game becomes much easier even on interloper difficulty simply because the player already knows where to go, what to do and what to pick up. It becomes a game of finish the list and not of exploration.

5) TLD already has many interesting features that would combine well w/ procedural maps. For example the charcoal which is used to make maps would become even more valuable and a vital gameplay mechanic whereas now it's pointless after the player already knows all the maps.

6) Creative Director Raphael van Lierop mentioned in an old post that it's important for the players to have the "coming home" feeling of revisiting a known place in the map. I agree. But this isn't lost w/ procedural maps. After the player explores an area, and sets up a base, he'll always get that feeling after coming back to his base that he knows, even on a procedurally generated map. Again, similar to great games such as Minecraft etc.

I really hope game devs see this post. For the good of this great game and its longevity.

 

[UpUpAway95]

11 minutes ago, Tilt said:

I don't think it's safe to say we can rule out procedurally generated maps for the current game.

Here are some reasons:

1) It's been done on many games, so it's definitily doable.

2) It wouldn't need to disrupt the story mode. People who favor the story can continue playing just the story if they want. This would be an added benefit to the game.

3) It would add infinite longevity to the game, which is exactly the same thing that happens for sandbox games like Minecraft and No Man's Sky. Minecraft has recently achieved the spot of most sold game of all time and it's been launched over 10 years ago. It wouldn't get this far w/ static maps.

4) Exploration is probably one of the most fun aspects of the game. But exploration only lasts so long as the maps are unknown to the player, after that the game becomes much easier even on interloper difficulty simply because the player already knows where to go, what to do and what to pick up. It becomes a game of finish the list and not of exploration.

5) TLD already has many interesting features that would combine well w/ procedural maps. For example the charcoal which is used to make maps would become even more valuable and a vital gameplay mechanic whereas now it's pointless after the player already knows all the maps.

6) Creative Director Raphael van Lierop mentioned in an old post that it's important for the players to have the "coming home" feeling of revisiting a known place in the map. I agree. But this isn't lost w/ procedural maps. After the player explores an area, and sets up a base, he'll always get that feeling after coming back to his base that he knows, even on a procedurally generated map. Again, similar to great games such as Minecraft etc.

I really hope game devs see this post. For the good of this great game and its longevity.

 

The reason I believe it would disrupt story mode is that it would change the focus of the staff.  The maps are currently being crafted for the story mode and I don't think, at this stage in the the development, that focus should change.  Once the story is done, then I see a place for it and it would be a fitting continuation for the game world.  What I see as being required is for survival mode players to step back and be patient.  No matter what Hinterland adds to survival mode, the players will always want "more and new and different" and will continually claim "boredom" with whatever is already there.  The players are insatiable in that regard... but I personally want to see story mode completed before we get into that never ending "Minecraft' model of additions and updates.

[ThePancakeLady]

4 hours ago, Tilt said:

1) It's been done on many games, so it's definitily doable.

It has also NOT been done on many games. Just because other games have done it, does not mean it should be done on every other game out there. Not every game needs or wants to be a Minecraft clone. And yes, it may be "doable", but it may also require more manhours for the devs to make the game over, from the start, than makes financial sense. 

 

4 hours ago, Tilt said:

2) It wouldn't need to disrupt the story mode. People who favor the story can continue playing just the story if they want. This would be an added benefit to the game.

In your opinion, perhaps. Not everyone agrees this would be of great benefit, even many of us who have thousands of hours played in Survival Mode already.

 

5 hours ago, ajb1978 said:

In the Milton Mailbag at some point Raph mentioned that he liked the idea of a procedually generated highway, where the player was tasked with traveling 100km down this highway on foot for (insert plot device here).  That, I think, would be a great game to play.  If not a sequel to The Long Dark, a spiritual successor at least

 

On 7/28/2019 at 11:26 AM, Fuarian said:

But something much simpler would be to add randomization to the existing regions. Like burned down buildings, both at the start of the game and dynamically occurring (i.e. aurora fires). So places like your favorite shelter can suddenly burn down forcing you to move around the region. Speaking of that, certain parts of a region could be blocked off, like fallen trees, snow drifts, buried vehicles and buildings (in snow), blocked transition zones, cave-ins, locked buildings (need to find key or break in), etc... 

And a map editor, for players to create and upload new maps may come, as well as these ideas, when we get full modding support. Which they are working on already. 
The lore of the game involves us crashing a plane onto a remote island. I feel like a remote, abandoned island would not go on infinitely. We have a defined location the game takes place in/on. Adding infinite proc-gen maps would take away from that. A complete change of the backstory and lore of the game would be needed to have us exploring infinitely, in a never-ending world.

The game has longevity. Many of us have spent hundreds or thousands of hours playing it, in Survival Mode. It will get more when the full modding support is added. A procedurally generated world can be fun, but would not fit this game well, in my opinion. A spiritual successor or a completely new game,  which is what you are asking for in essence, would be better. If the devs want to add proc-gen maps, I would rather see a completely new game made and sold, (I would buy it) in the TLD game world. With modders being able to add new maps, to the one already in existence in this game, filling in the open areas on the island with new places to find and try to survive in.

[Admin]

As a reminder when asked about the possibility of procedurally generated maps @Raphael van Lierop answered: 

Quote

 

We'd have to re-build our entire pipeline from scratch to accommodate procedurally generated content, so I don't see that happening for this iteration of The Long Dark. Also, a big point of differentiation for our game, I feel, is the hand-crafted feeling of the environments and the fact that you can actually build up knowledge about the world layout over time, which helps you be a better Survivor. Learning to recognize the various landmarks, and becoming familiar with a space you've spent a lot of time in, so that you occasionally get these memories of "coming home" somewhere that's been a good shelter for you, or avoiding a location where you might have had bad experiences in a previous game, etc. I think this approach lets players create a sense of connection to the game space that you just can't inspire in a procedurally-generated world. 

So, I'm going to say that this isn't really a goal we're pursuing for The Long Dark. It doesn't really line up with our general philosophy about the game and the world we're creating. 

 

We're certainly happy to have you talk about the benefits and why you think they'd be a good addition to the game, but they're not something that we're considering for The Long Dark.

[Tilt]

6 minutes ago, rancid0 said:

i cant speak for every game with random gen maps but minecraft and 7 days to die were created from the beginning with random gen built into the core of the game, tld has not been made this way and would cost alot of money and take alot of time to rework into it... time and money that would be better used perfecting and finishing what they've already started instead of redoing the whole game with new mechanics.   

Yes this feature would take development resources. But the end result would be a game that has infinite longevity and that highlights the exploration aspect. Maybe detaching a team from the story mode to work on this in parallel, since it's independent from the story mode would be something to consider.

Focus on exploration with procedurally generated maps are a perfect match to survival sandbox games. The Long Dark is such a game. It adds replayability, it adds to the sense of wonder that people get from new games, it keeps the game fresh at every playthrough and would be a great benefit considering the type of game TLD is. It would be an investment well worth the cost, in my opinion.

[Tilt]

13 minutes ago, Admin said:

As a reminder when asked about the possibility of procedurally generated maps @Raphael van Lierop answered: 

We're certainly happy to have you talk about the benefits and why you think they'd be a good addition to the game, but they're not something that we're considering for The Long Dark.

Yes, thanks. I had seen this post which is from a mailbag from over a year ago. That's why I started this topic to see if it would be something worth being revisited by the dev team, considering it's something written over a year ago. In any case please, if you could, have Raphael van Lierop   himself take note of this new topic just as something for him to consider. I think he may have understimated the benefit of procedurally generated maps for this game.

 

Tks for the game, hope it continues doing well in the future!

[UpUpAway95]

59 minutes ago, Tilt said:

Yes this feature would take development resources. But the end result would be a game that has infinite longevity and that highlights the exploration aspect. Maybe detaching a team from the story mode to work on this in parallel, since it's independent from the story mode would be something to consider.

Focus on exploration with procedurally generated maps are a perfect match to survival sandbox games. The Long Dark is such a game. It adds replayability, it adds to the sense of wonder that people get from new games, it keeps the game fresh at every playthrough and would be a great benefit considering the type of game TLD is. It would be an investment well worth the cost, in my opinion.

I think that detaching a team from story mode IS the equivalent of "disrupting story mode."   The time for revisiting this sort of idea is not now... but AFTER the story is completed.  Then, as I said, I could see a possibility of adding on a gateway (perhaps initiating from Jackrabbit Transport's hangar) that could start various ongoing survival adventures in procedurally generated game worlds.