Development information

[jakku]

It's not that there are shitstorms around all the time, not at all

They are very helpful and so on, but it really seems they dont give a damn about the ppl who give a very good, qualitative feedback, with arguments and support them financially, their supporters. It feels like it's us and them, instead of a synthesis.

I doubt this is somewhat a target of the team. I dont demand an inside wip-report whenever someone cries out for it. But indisputably they could do more, even if it's just a blogpost every week.

+ @BILL

Dont get me wrong, I appreciate the work you do in sense of providing some information from time to time and talking about the ongoing progress. But it's not that we live next door aswell so as said, it's that strong feeling of a barricade

+1.

@RJIII - blizzard is wrong example. Last 5 or more years they do terrible things with fans and potential players.. Too many years for D3 development and final cuted game release than they promised. No one needs every info for release, just some blogspot or something..

Remember they are not developers with huge budget. They start with kickstarter and now early steam accsess. We are "investors" in game and future players will be. So little weekly info unlikely to be a problem.

Yours faithfully for developers.

[RJIII]

It's not that there are shitstorms around all the time, not at all

They are very helpful and so on, but it really seems they dont give a damn about the ppl who give a very good, qualitative feedback, with arguments and support them financially, their supporters. It feels like it's us and them, instead of a synthesis.

I doubt this is somewhat a target of the team. I dont demand an inside wip-report whenever someone cries out for it. But indisputably they could do more, even if it's just a blogpost every week.

+ @BILL

Dont get me wrong, I appreciate the work you do in sense of providing some information from time to time and talking about the ongoing progress. But it's not that we live next door aswell so as said, it's that strong feeling of a barricade

+1.

@RJIII - blizzard is wrong example. Last 5 or more years they do terrible things with fans and potential players.. Too many years for D3 development and final cuted game release than they promised. No one needs every info for release, just some blogspot or something..

Remember they are not developers with huge budget. They start with kickstarter and now early steam accsess. We are "investors" in game and future players will be. So little weekly info unlikely to be a problem.

Yours faithfully for developers.

I don't think you read his response right he's saying blizzard blew it with their updates. You are actually saying the same thing.

[ChillPlayer]

I've got my copy during a steam sale for 9.90€ and have already spent 80 hours ingame, ten times more than in some "so called" triple A games that cost me 50€ - if you want to see your paying for potentially hundred of hours of enjoyment and fun as an investment, well, this sure is the best investment I've ever done already

Blizzard is an extreme example of what too much information can do to a community. But in TLD, given the many bugs that are getting addressed, the occasional "what's coming next" post, regular updates and not least Bill's continous reports on various things the devs are working on I wouldn't say it's all quite on the dev side. But as you wrote yourself, it's a small team that does not have a huge (if any) budged for community management, nor should they - in my opinion - focus any energy on how to sell us the game other than making the most amazing game they can.

[pikkue]

Bill is not a member of the team (as far as I understood) and the informational output of the team during the last weeks was as good as non existing.

Again this is not about having total knowledge about everything thats going on, but to establish maybe thin, but steady stream of information.

[jakku]

I don't think you read his response right he's saying blizzard blew it with their updates. You are actually saying the same thing.

Sorry for my missunderstand. Now it's okei. Cheers! :oops:

[Bill Tarling]

Bill is not a member of the team (as far as I understood) and the informational output of the team during the last weeks was as good as non existing. Again this is not about having total knowledge about everything thats going on, but to establish maybe thin, but steady stream of information.

"the informational output of the team during the last weeks was as good as non existing" - You mean the first week the team has been back from the holiday season break? They're busy working on the next update (we've all been told it involves a new map, wildlife, and more)... We'll know more details when they've finalized what is ready to be released.

Hinterland has been releasing at least one or more major update monthly. There is no reason for them to be proving hourly, daily, or weekly announcements - their current task list is constantly changing. Just because they're working on one item doesn't mean that item will be included the following week.

They post as time allows - but their priority focus is one the game.

[pikkue]

There is no reason for them to be proving hourly, daily, or weekly announcements.

I kindly disagree.

There is very well a reason, being someone who gives live-feedback, a certain frustration is making it's way.

That could in the end mean, people will not report any valuable information, thoughts, ideas or even only bugreports.

There is a profound interest to communicate to the supporters.

As said, no need to know for every detail they're on to.

The statement about non communication towards the sellers persists from my side.

[FluffyGotKilled]

There is no reason for them to be proving hourly, daily, or weekly announcements.

I kindly disagree.

There is very well a reason, being someone who gives live-feedback, a certain frustration is making it's way.

That could in the end mean, people will not report any valuable information, thoughts, ideas or even only bugreports.

There is a profound interest to communicate to the supporters.

As said, no need to know for every detail they're on to.

The statement about non communication towards the sellers persists from my side.

+1

We know That they work hard, and we love their Game. They're doing a truly AMAZING job.

Therefore, we have no contact from them. Is everything going as expected? In what week will we get a release date for the update?

Most of the projects (game or products) have an ongoing flow of information's coming. New servers, new people, general improvements, future expectations...

[wynarator]

Totally need moar updates! Like "here guys, this is a screenshot of the shit im working on, watcha think?", it's that simple.

[elloco999]

While I'm okay with the amount of info the devs have given us in the past, people here have a point. I've backed on the All Digital level ($20). Here's the description:

ALL DIGITAL

ONE DOWNLOADABLE COPY of The Long Dark for PC, Mac, or Linux and an exclusive wallpaper. Access to a PRIVATE BACKER COMMUNITY (includes exclusive developer updates and first-look screenshots and video) . Also receive a KICKSTARTER BACKER badge for display in The Long Dark forums.

"includes exclusive developer updates and first-look screenshots and video"

So where are the first-look screenshots and video? And I wouldn't call a post stating there's a new update including a changelist an exclusive developer update, especially if that same info is posted on the steam forums.

Again, I'm okay with the level of info we're getting and I'd rather have the devs working on the game instead of on info for the community. But you can't fault people for asking for these things when they were promised.

A community manager could handle these things without taking away (much) development time. Since there is a job opening for a community manager, hopefully there will be more info coming out way in the near future.

@Bill something for you, that community manager job? You're already very active here, so why not get paid for it

[pikkue]

Ouhz?

So you bought screenshots etc. with the bundle? Well nevermind, I payed the 20 bucks in Euros and get the same basically, so be glad you havent payed more back then

One shouldve bought vip backer it seems.

And I wouldn't call a post stating there's a new update including a changelist an exclusive developer update, especially if that same info is posted on the steam forums.

Thats basically what I am talking about.

"There is a new update coming" is a null-statement. Ofcourse there will be an update sooner or later, this is alpha. But nothing about its content apart from the new map what was announced long ago. Information would be how is it structure, it's gameplay, is it full of loot like coastal?

But the given information is non existent in that sense.

[TLDFAN]

But if the devs are so active on twitter, how is it still a one sided relationship with only us giving them feedback?

Mate, let's say you meet with that girl a few times who you like a lot. You are happy and cheerfully thinking about the probable next month' with her. :

You try get further, you want to find out what kind of person she is, you tease her and basically want to make her yours. You are more or less open but with a serious interest.

She talks about shoes, that other girl, who was a slut lookalike and either tries to avoid another level with you or is just dumb and does not grasp youz intention.

That's where we are now.

So the evening goes on, she still talks about random stuff you don't mind, furthermore you remark she is not the person for live and even more enerves you so much that you dont wanna pin her down.

Awwww is this game your girlfriend? She not giving you enough time over your twitter friends? LOL give me a break. They are on twitter because that is where buzz is generated for sales in the coming year. They have already sold you, you are on the bus, take your seat, keep giving that feedback, if you are feeling the need to get whiny just remember my bus driver from when I was a kid, he used to scream, "Listen up back there" sometimes he'd even pull the bus over and stop driving. We were all WTF? So don't make the driver pull the bus over to give you some loving, just chill man just chill.

[pikkue]

Was waiting for a kid like you.

Not to be taken serious, thanks.

[ChillPlayer]

I don't know your age pikkue but it seems that in the 90ties you would not have been able to play any games, after all the only news we were receiving then about any games were in the PC magazines we bought and mostly only about games published by major companies. There was no twitter, forums, facebook or even websites, just a 2-3 site article (if it was a big title) and a review score from an author. Based on that you had to decide if you buy or don't buy a game and the time you bought it was in most cases the last time you interacted in anyway with the publisher/developers regarding that game.

I truly miss the times when a game was just that: a means to have some fun for several hours and not a multichannel entertainment endevour that has to satisfy all our arbitrary needs 24/7. Nowadays I feel that some gamers are worse than little children with an AD disorder, they need to be constantly entertained by every means possible because playing the game isn't enough anymore.

I've read some arguments in this thread that because it is alpha they should do more informing - I don't know where this notion comes from. I see it exactly the other way around, they need to code now and inform us via releasing new updates. The time it reaches final release is when a community manager should begin to pet the crowd and form a community, hyping them with new exciting news, posting amazing screenshots and videos, because this is the time the big masses will stumble upon this game and decide if they want to buy it or not. Alpha is for nerds, final for the masses.

So if you feel unsatisfied by the information policy of the company, try to take some satisfaction in knowing that:

- you were around the first to discover, play and probably love this game

- you know how everything that will be in the final release developed, why it was put there, what the idea is behind it

- your feedback is important and is heard by the devs, even if they don't give you a lolly after every bug you've reported

- you will be in the inner circle of the community simply because you are here much longer than people who only bought the final release

This are very nerdy perks in my view and you get all this for only 10-20€. I'd go so far to say that asking for more is the impertinent behaviour of a spoiled six year old. Be happy with what you have (which is plenty), get excited whenever you hear any news about the game, play the game for the games sake and don't get disappointed if the devs won't find the time to constantly hold your hand and pet you on your back for the next two years.

Monthly updates for godsake, what more do you expect?

[pikkue]

Whats the deal with you folks being so offended by some arguments?

I presented all of them in a elaborated way and "In the 90's there were no information at all" is everything but a powerfull one, since this has been 20 years ago.

I agree in terms of this might be a nerdy demand, but as fucking explained a million times already, this is NOT about knowing every single developement step, but to receive some information from time to time.

When I invest my money in some project, whatever this may be, I expect atleast some information about it from time to time.

Apart from that, ye late 90's games were better, when it was not about achievements and rpg elements everywhere but smooth gameplay mechanics and awsome leveldesign.

I enjoyed the contructive discussions in this forum until now, but the age-argument comes right before Hitler.

Stay calm, this is just some internet discussion.

[ChillPlayer]

I enjoyed the contructive discussions in this forum until now, but the age-argument comes right before Hitler.

Although I began my last post in reference to yours I wasn't speaking only about you, it's more a general comment on todays gaming "culture" if you want to call it this way. I am also not the slightest interested in a fight about anything that neither you nor anyone can change. It's the devs decision on how they handle this, I just wanted to point the light in a different direction. But if the age argument is the only thing you take out from what I've posted, well, meh..

I could go on, quote paragraphs from your post here that cleary indicate that a discussion is the last thing you want, you only want the devs to agree with you and you won't budge in any other direction. So to make it short:

as fucking explained a million times already, this is NOT about knowing every single developement step, but to receive some information from time to time.

Monthly updates for godsake, what more do you expect?

:roll:

[wynarator]

Cannot agree with ChilliPlayer. I myself am an a bit older gamer, so I remember 90's and reading magazines to get cheats or guids on games. But times change, dude, look around, there are social media, there's a damn encyclopedia along with video player, music player and 24/7 news in your phone.

It's not like I can FORCE hinterland to do anything, but weekly updates would be appreciated. I know, it takes time, but it's up to devs to decide how much time would day put on it.

I worked few good years in software developement and I know a bit about the process (worked as a project manager), so I guess devs are meeting and talking about the project and making some notes of it just to check progress - just making some bulletpoints out of it should give fans some insight into the project.

Or is it AGILE?

[lauren]

when it was not about achievements and rpg elements everywhere but smooth gameplay mechanics and awsome leveldesign.

If anything developers are striving for the best GP possible (physics, collisions, animation, AI, locomotion, etc. etc.) and astounding-aesthetically pleasing-mind blowing-level design these days - because people will not accept anything less.

This statement is quite neutral; middle ground, and very personal to your own views, so here's mine:

There were tons of sub par games back in the 90s there are tons of sub par games now, and assuredly more to come. The only difference between now and then...you don't have to wait a month to find out if a game is bad...just go online (Ah Online; a component that, by the way, didn't truly exist in Video Games during the 90s...think about it)

[ChillPlayer]

Or is it AGILE?

Monthly (quite stable) updates would indeed suggest a more extreme approach to programming

I just don't understand what it will add to your gaming experience to get weekly news in addition to monthly updates. Of course I see that times have changed, but that does not mean we should completely forget everything about the past. You know, to get such a thing like a perspective.

To some extend I love how things are now, being able to communicate with other fans, sometimes even with the devs themselfs, videos of all sorts, sharing stuff, getting much more updates and so on. In fact right now I wouldn't mind to get an announcement when the new update will be ready so I'd knew how much effort I should put into my next playthrough. But that does not mean I go on and demand it. Asking is one thing, but this thread sure feels more like demanding to me, and that's what bothers me. No appreciation for what they already do for only 20€ a copy, just demanding more more more.

Small team=low budget=no dedicated CM=time is very precious.

You say you worked in developement yourself wynarator, so try to remember back when you was deep in code, would you've found the time and muse to post pictures or blogs about what you do online? I certainly don't, when I'm coding then I'm coding, nothing much else outside matters. And I certainly would not have the time to explain in detail every update I upload, answer the sure-to-be-posted questions about the update and so on. I think this is the main reason why they communicate mostly stuff that is ready.

But seriously guys, they are not mute, they post the occasional news, even more frequent than other early access games I play and they release far more updates than most other alpha/beta games. So why is it not enough? Why has "from time to time" to be weekly? That's an even more harsh timeline than most "real" business investors are demanding. And you are not getting only words every month, no you can actually test those words inside the game after you've read them - why you fail to recognize that this is more valuable than a weekly news report without any definite statements, simply escapes me.

TL;DR: stop whining, play more

[EDIT] Just to add some more perspective: the devs have posted ~2500 posts in the past 16 months - and that is not enough? :shock:

[elloco999]

[EDIT] Just to add some more perspective: the devs have posted ~2500 posts in the past 16 months - and that is not enough? :shock:

Of those 2500 posts, how many are "ticket #xxx opened." or "fixed in the next update" etc? I f I were to venture a guess over 95%.

I was looking at the team page on the hinterland website and I noticed something there: They do have a community manager: Emily Claire Afan. That makes me wonder why I haven't seem 1 post from Emily on the forum since I joined. It seems to me that the official forum is a place that should be frequented by the community manager.

I'm a developer myself. We have daily "stand-ups", short meetings where everyone states what he's working on, what issues they're running into and what they plan on doing next. This way everyone on the team knows who's doing what and quite often if someone has a specific issue, someone else can point them in the right direction. If someone (like a community manager) was present at these meetings and took notes on what everyone's doing, posting a weekly update on what the team has been working on and possible set backs they ran into would not have to take any more time from the devs.

But the members of the Hinterland team are probably not all in the same location, so that may complicate such a thing. Still, given the fact that a project lead should always know what the team is doing and the fact he can let the community manager do the actual writing of the text, posting it and answering the replies of the community, it should not be too hard to give weekly status reports or something.

Now I'm not saying we should be getting weekly status reports, I am saying that given the fact there is a community manager on team Hinterland I find it strange that we, the community, are not getting some more information every now and then. No need to give us all the inside information or anything, but some things like "hey guys we've been working on a new system for creating a shelter outside. This is how it currently works [insert short explanation]. Here's a screenshot of the interface. What do you think?" Not only is this a good way to keep the community happy and engaged, it would also enable the team to get feedback on things that are not even completely developed.

I liked how Double Bear handled this aspect during the development of Dead State (another project I backed on KickStarter). Double Bear is also a small team but still they were pretty active on the forums. We got monthly (well, not quite but they didn't always manage to but they did try) backer-only updates that usually contained some sneak peek or interesting inside information. And on the forums accessible for everyone they tried to give 2-3 smaller updates per month. I'm not saying there weren't months of complete silence but overall there was a lot of information coming our way.

One huge difference between Hinterland and Double Bear is that we didn't get monthly updates to the game with Dead State. These monthly updates we're getting for TLD take a lot of time. Not just development time, but also a lot of testing to make sure the build that gets released to us is stable and doesn't contain huge bugs. If I have to choose between more information or monthly software updates that add lots of new content every time and are so stable it's easy to forget you're playing an alpha game, I'll choose the monthly updates every time!

[ChillPlayer]

I suspect that the position for CM is only filled right now but not active, probably when the game is reaching beta or even final we will read more from her. Or she is working on other stuff in the background, like placing ads in mags, interviews, events and other stuff to make the game more known. After all we are not a huge community yet that needs to be managed, most of us are entertained enough by the game itself and it's regular updates.

But I agree, at some point we ought to hear from her, otherwise she's "only" a PR and not a C manager.

[elloco999]

One could also argue that managing the community now will help it grow more rapidly, increasing the amount of feedback that reaches the devs and the revenue from EA sales thereby increasing the budget the devs have available.

[pikkue]

"A discussion is the last thing you want.."

Had to laugh a bit here.

I feel like all points are exchanged regarding that topic.

[ChillPlayer]

http://schedule.gdconf.com/session/there-be-monsters-harnessing-the-power-of-community-informed-development-for-the-long-dark

Description of Raph's speech at the GDC, everyone invested in this thread should read it. According to this, the speech will be about some of the points I made in one of my first posts here (the one that got you pikkue all worked up for nothing ).

I hope there will be a transcript or even a video of the speech, would be a fitting conclusion to this thread I believe.

[Bill Tarling]

One thing that may also help show why the devs are so busy at the moment, and have had less time to chat on the forums right now - pay special notice to the stats about the sandbox size.... The current sandbox covers about 10 sq km -- after the next updates, the sandbox will cover about 19 sq km [almost fours times the current game size]. And the current bug fixes, animal AI fixes and tuning, not having to test for three separate modes (there are also over 1225 tunable variables and growing, which is another reason why player who say "just add this function, it's easy" don't realize how many other variables need to be tuned as well...

Anyhow, with double the game size about to come out soon, a bit of patience will likely be needed... and no I don't think weekly detailed updates or task bullet lists are needed (they take a lot more than a few minutes to post - they also have to be organized, and a lot of material would still need to be kept secret). We're getting steady regular MAJOR updates every 3-4 weeks... We may "want" more updates, but we don't "need" more updates...

Quite often, the thrill of seeing how much more has been put into each new major update is jaw dropping enough... and the devs always give a warning when testing tweaks are almost done and a new version is about to be released to everyone, so you can still finish up your current runs.