Advanced diffculty/game customization

[TerribleSurvivor]

Hey folks and Hinterland Staff,

besides my little rant about the current code feature for saving custom difficulties i wanted to let you know that i really like the custom difficulty option.

It improved my gameplay experience rermarkebly so i wanted to thank you for that.

However, i felt a little limited when i created my first custom difficulty. Sure, it is great for the average person that just wants to be quickly able to make his own difficulty without worrying to much about the in-depth meaning of a variable. E.g. the population variable can be set from "nothing" to "very high". This is very intuitive indeed as it should be for the average person: "High bear population means that i will encounter bears more often!" --> Clear and simple = perfect!

For more dedicated creators however, it feels very limiting though to have such little choice. Maybe i do not only want to modify the number of bears spawning in one region but also be able to distribute them amongst the available regions as well (e.g. no bears in mystery lake and timberwolf mountain). Maybe i want to define custom spawn locations for them. Maybe i want to give them custom routes by setting waypoints so they wander arround between them (randomly/ in a pattern?). Maybe i want to make them more/less aggressive in certain areas. Maybe i want to make them more/less healthy. Maybe i want to define a chance of getting intestinal parasites from bear meat. Maybe i want to apply all these custom settings differently for each region.

As you can see, there is a lot, and i mean A LOT of customization possible. The same settings as for bears could also be applied to wolves (make them act in packs?). And it is not limited to populating animals and defining their behavior. Maybe i want to change the climatic conditions of certain regions or areas?

And this is where an advanced difficulty customization interface would be required. Of course it couldn´t be done by adding a million additional fancy UI elements. The game would have to provide a manual with all alterable variables in the game and a text interface (or at least import) where you could play arround with all these funny variables. It would be an ingame modding-feature! And the way to create your ultimate survival experience yourself! (Real modding however would require to support scripting! And scripting is next-level sh*t! So let´s not think about it right now!)

I absolutly know that this is an idea for the long term. I do not expect Hinterland to focus on difficulty customization right now. But maybe after finishing the story mode would be a good time to think about it...

 

Share your thoughts about it with me!

[Fuarian]

Yeah, I do definitely agree. I think we should be able to also set the loose item spawn rate to low but choose which items follow this rule. Food, tools etc... that way we can allow for custom Interloper to actually be like Interloper.

[TerribleSurvivor]

You would practically be able to do anything with the given ressources from Hinterland. I think that this would take a lot of pressure off Hinterland Studios itself by allowing players to create their own, fine-tuned and customized survival experience. They could focus a lot more on creating new content rather than serving the numerous suggestions for different survival modes/experiences...

Well, only time can tell!

[Mroz4k]

Skimmed most of it, but I get what you mean. Still unable to try new update myself since I am limited by outdated hardware (still) - but from what I saw on the update, they added just a number of different options.

There are two reasons for that, in my opinion.

First is that this is a new update and an entirely new system. It needs to go through a public test run first, which will show everyone whether this custom difficulty is worth it or not. If they did it highly customizable in the first place, it would be nigh-impossible to balance it out, and we could end up with games that are utterly unplayble. Which would cast bad shadow on the mechanic in the first place.

You cant just jump to a finished thing in most cases - you gotta take those little steps. So, if I were to take a guess, I think that following updates will eventually bring more customizations.

Second reason is partly my fault. I was well aware that custom difficulty will come sooner or later (nobody told me, but it was intuition) - and I have been talking about putting together a list of what I believe would be best customizable options - but I never did it. Partly because I took a vacation from forums as they were turning a bit too hostile for my taste...

So, I think its time we all did that. As a part of the feedback for the customized gamemode feedback, I think we should all put together a masterthread of all the options we would like to see customizable, and in what way.

To give an example - I heard one of the options there are to disable sprains altogether, and expressed wish to see an option to "set them simply lower then default instead of disabling them entirely".

I think thats a good start. I think it would be best if similar "affliction related settings" were a dragbar, with a "% to the default" unit.

For example:
middle of the dragbar would be "Default" option.
left end of the dragbar would be "Disabled" option. Anywhere in between the two, it would be % of default" - for example "40% of default, 50% of default"
right end of the dragbar would be "Doubled" option. Anywhere in between the two would be "% of over default" - for example 20% over default" option.

This would allow for the best, most customizable option in my opinion. Problem is that it would be impossible to have all of these "soft settings" be expressed by an URL, because the URL would get eventually REALLY long. 

My general idea for custom settings used to be: There would be a few settings in the first place that would be customizable right away (kind of like it works right now) AND there would be "advanced settings" where you could fine-tune the individual settings yourself to trully tailor your own gametype. Probably will need to have "save to file" kind of option for that, though.
 

[TerribleSurvivor]

First (Yes you definitly skimmed it):

23 hours ago, TerribleSurvivor said:

I absolutly know that this is an idea for the long term. I do not expect Hinterland to focus on difficulty customization right now. But maybe after finishing the story mode would be a good time to think about it...

Second (yes you definitly skimmed it):

I am not simply talking about making the UI suitable for fine tuning (although this would be a good option for the mid term).

I want to have the ability to customize in-game elements completly:

I do not only want to set the probability for blizzards but also be able to define a range of possible durations, a wind-pattern, the effect on temperature, the effect on wildlife, etc. Same goes for all other game elements.

This cannot be done by adding some simple UI features. This requires a markup language. Every deeply customizable environment offers a markup language. For webbrowsers it is HTML. For the battle of wesnoth it is WML*. Long goes the list!

About the code problem: Well this really shouldn´t be a big issue. Even a string that contains 10 million characters (which is a lot) would consume about 10MB only. I wouldn´t worry too much about string sizes these days.

 

ReferenceWML

[Mroz4k]

Doesnt matter that I skimmed it - what I said was still relevant.

Also, what you suggest is going into a very, very deep extremes. If the game offered this option right there in the menu, odds are most people would be very overwhelmed by the selection of options.

Here is where I would suggest to wait for the mod support. This would be a pretty decent mod that would allow perfectionalists to truly fine-tune the game.

BUT

such a game could differ from the original one a lot. Not sure thats such a good thing -there should be boundries to what you can set in the custom mode, for balancing issues. 

[KinoUnko]

you're really asking for map editor tool rather than in-game customization options. that won't be part of the game build. it'll either be a unity plugin or dedicated tool. either way it's not happening in any foreseeable future.

or apply at Hinterland as a Designer. that's your best bet for the level of access to game parameters you're after.

[TerribleSurvivor]

I am asking for access to all alterable variables in the game! Some kind of markup language could serve as an interface to change these variables. Or at least a text-based configuration interface. Something that goes deeper into the game rather than some fancy UI interfaces.

Btw, being a game designer at Hinterland doesn´t effectively mean that i am able to freely create new content that i personally want to see in the game. As a Hinterland employee, i need to adapt to the desires of my boss. And the minute he declines an idea, well then i have to obey. As a player outside of Hinterland studios and being able to access the game parameters, i could basically do anything i want liberally. Without anyone but myself having to agree!

[stratvox]

Great! Get hacking on your copy of the game and figure it out. If you really mean it, I guess I'd suggest starting by trying to figure out what DB format the game assets are stored in. May not be the worst of all possible ideas to go buy a copy of Unity Studio to help you out with that.

In the meantime, given that Hinterland owns The Long Dark, I guess they'll get to decide how they prioritise their work.

[Mroz4k]

Or you could just, you know, wait for mod support like I said...

Once they launch that off, they will have to work it out somehow - who knows, maybe they will even program an editor altogether, for player maps and such. Maybe not. Either way, at that point of time the game will become more customizable - if they follow through with the original plan of making it highly customizable (or so I heard that this was a plan).

This would mean a lot of work to satisfy a very narrow pool of players like yourself. And eventually they actually want to give community tools to alter the game, anyways. So it would really be a waste of time.

As for the "employee" argument you guys came up with  first of all, if that was the only reason to work for Hinterland, dont think they would accept you anyways, and yea, at work you would have to do what the superiors say, but that doesnt mean you couldnt work on something on the side as a hobby, using the access you had from the work. I think thats what KinoUnko meant  

[TerribleSurvivor]

17 hours ago, stratvox said:

Great! Get hacking on your copy of the game and figure it out. If you really mean it, I guess I'd suggest starting by trying to figure out what DB format the game assets are stored in. May not be the worst of all possible ideas to go buy a copy of Unity Studio to help you out with that.

In the meantime, given that Hinterland owns The Long Dark, I guess they'll get to decide how they prioritise their work.

Hacked software can lead to a prosecution once i publish it. I personally prefer spending my good years outside of jail

[TerribleSurvivor]

4 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Or you could just, you know, wait for mod support like I said...

Once they launch that off, they will have to work it out somehow - who knows, maybe they will even program an editor altogether, for player maps and such. Maybe not. Either way, at that point of time the game will become more customizable - if they follow through with the original plan of making it highly customizable (or so I heard that this was a plan).

This would mean a lot of work to satisfy a very narrow pool of players like yourself. And eventually they actually want to give community tools to alter the game, anyways. So it would really be a waste of time.

Well, mod support will come once they finish developping the game itself. But yeah, i get your point. However, i do not see it as a major deal to add some more variables to play with and make a simple markup language or text-based configuration support to load your alterations into the game. It would basically mean that all parameter values would be fetched from a string instead being set by the game itself. Eventually, I don´t know how their code looks like so it´s not worth speculating any further.

4 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

As for the "employee" argument you guys came up with  first of all, if that was the only reason to work for Hinterland, dont think they would accept you anyways, and yea, at work you would have to do what the superiors say, but that doesnt mean you couldnt work on something on the side as a hobby, using the access you had from the work. I think thats what KinoUnko meant  

Yeah sure, after a 10 hours development session (which is pretty common amongst software developers) i definitly would have the passion to sit down another 3-4 hours a day making my own code. Just to see it declined by my boss because the agenda changed. Hahaha! Very funny dude.

[omoon66]

What sucks is that Xbox certification takes FOREVER. We still don’t have this update. I just want to make a moose bag on my custom difficulty 

[Mroz4k]

31 minutes ago, TerribleSurvivor said:

Yeah sure, after a 10 hours development session (which is pretty common amongst software developers) i definitly would have the passion to sit down another 3-4 hours a day making my own code. Just to see it declined by my boss because the agenda changed. Hahaha! Very funny dude.

My best mate does that. Codes things in his own time just for a hobby, while having his own company, and working for another firm as an employee. Wasnt trying to be funny. Depends on a person. And 10 hours is nothing. Most programmists I know work those hours 5-6 times a week.

15 minutes ago, omoon66 said:

What sucks is that Xbox certification takes FOREVER. We still don’t have this update. I just want to make a moose bag on my custom difficulty 

I feel with you.

But hey, at least you have the XBox to play it on.

I have the game on Steam, but when Wintermute came out, my laptop died and the PCs Ive had since then are way too old to run TLD. Still very far from getting a decent enough rig to play it.

Probably wont get the chance to play this new update in next month.

[TerribleSurvivor]

1 minute ago, Mroz4k said:

My best mate does that. Codes things in his own time just for a hobby, while having his own company, and working for another firm as an employee. Wasnt trying to be funny. Depends on a person. And 10 hours is nothing. Most programmists I know work those hours 5-6 times a week.

Absolutly right. Still, making your own part of the game autonomously is running the risk of compatibility problems with the main game. And that´s not worth the effort. Your best mate is for sure not doing work related tasks as a hobby. I would rather guess that he is working on his own little project.

[omoon66]

15 minutes ago, Mroz4k said:

I have the game on Steam, but when Wintermute came out, my laptop died and the PCs Ive had since then are way too old to run TLD. Still very far from getting a decent enough rig to play it.

Probably wont get the chance to play this new update in next month.

Aw, that’s sucks. Hey, if you haven’t already, maybe you could sell those old PC’s and get some money. But I do hope you can get yourself a decent computer, and get to moose hunting! 

[Mroz4k]

Just now, TerribleSurvivor said:

Absolutly right. Still, making your own part of the game autonomously is running the risk of compatibility problems with the main game. And that´s not worth the effort. Your best mate is for sure not doing work related tasks as a hobby. I would rather guess that he is working on his own little project.

That would be a probably correct assumption. He does little things on the side, probably not a single project, either - but a bunch of smaller ones. I also agree it would likely be a waste of time, too. Especially if we know that at some point, the game will become more open.

I don't think they plan to "finish" this game, ever. Sounds like a stupid thing to do if it continues to grow in popularity. At some point they might hit a peak, but considering what I know of their operations that's unlikely to happen anytime soon. The gentlemen in charge of this are geniuses, and quite an inspiration in terms of business management as well which is of interest to me, being an economy student. We have hints of Hinterland, considering Co-op mode for the game. If the game did die down a bit to not be worth maintaining anymore, I would expect either a datadisc, or a sequel to come in eventually. But I don't agree with general opinion that Hinterland will quit TLD sometime after all the episodes end and sandbox is polished out. TLD always was very close to realistic, immersive feeling. There will always be more things to add. I think one of their biggest goals at the moment is going to be next Episode, and the mod support - because the sooner they open up the mod support for the game, the sooner will the TLD content multiplying.

2 minutes ago, omoon66 said:

Aw, that’s sucks. Hey, if you haven’t already, maybe you could sell those old PC’s and get some money. But I do hope you can get yourself a decent computer, and get to moose hunting! 

wish that was so easy. Computer like this is probably not even worth 20 USD altogether - new one would be at least 700

Nah, just have to get rid of my unfavorable financial situation, with new work coming up I will have the money soon enough!  Who knows, might get a PC part or two for Christmas, too!

[stratvox]

7 hours ago, TerribleSurvivor said:

Hacked software can lead to a prosecution once i publish it. I personally prefer spending my good years outside of jail

No, not in this case. You're talking about cracking, and I'm talking about hacking. They're not the same thing, even though I know The Kids Today don't understand that distinction. There's absolutely nothing illegal about figuring out how the software works, nor with writing a tool to play with how it works. Now, writing a tool that defeats copy protection and then using that tool to sell pirated copies of the game... that's illegal. Actually, just selling copies of the game as if you owned it is illegal... that's why the DMCA is so stupid. Either way, hacking the internal db format so you can figure out how to modify how it works, and giving people tools to do the same thing... that's not illegal. There are mods that exist already and I've not seen any actions that indicate that Hinterland is going after those people in any way.

Besides, there's no obligation upon you to publish any tools that you've written for your own personal use. So, stop complaining and start hacking. Or just stop complaining whether you get to hacking or not. It is not incumbent on Hinterland (or anybody else, for that matter) to create tools for you to do the things you want in exactly the way you want to do them.

[TerribleSurvivor]

@stratvox

I still do not want to risk a lawsuit with Hinterland! Reverse engineering is not a thing Game Studios like you to do! Mod support still means that i have to ask Hinterland!

15 hours ago, stratvox said:

No, not in this case. You're talking about cracking, and I'm talking about hacking. They're not the same thing, even though I know The Kids Today don't understand that distinction.

This is what i would call "ad hominem". Pathethic, simply pathethic! We are not living in the stone age anymore!

[TerribleSurvivor]

22 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

I don't think they plan to "finish" this game, ever.

Hmmm, that would mean to be forced to maintain modifications which can be quite a lot of work honestly. We will see. On the other hand, it´s most likely new content only that will be introduced in the next years. Thus they could allow mod support already (in theory).

[Mroz4k]

3 hours ago, TerribleSurvivor said:

@stratvox

I still do not want to risk a lawsuit with Hinterland! Reverse engineering is not a thing Game Studios like you to do! Mod support still means that i have to ask Hinterland!

This is what i would call "ad hominem". Pathethic, simply pathethic! We are not living in the stone age anymore!

That wasnt ad hominem and he has a point. And if we are going to start using fallacies, this is your sin, mate.

Cracking implies you broke through the program protection in order to alter the game and then redistribute it, which is illegal.

Hacking implies only the act of breaking through the program protection. If you bought the game already, it means you cant benefit from stealing it anymore, you already own it. And if you own it, you should be able to do whatever you want with it. 

So, if you break through the program protection in order to only "get a peek under the hood", you are not commiting any crime. As long as you dont redistribute it further, or use the knowledge you gained from it to copy it for your own product. You cant break their author policies.

Car companies would also purchase cars from their opponent, and pull it apart to learn from its technology. As long as they dont blatantly steal it or reproduce its patented technology, this is not illegal.

But I will be the first to say, this exchange of opinions is going to lead nowhere.

[Patrick Carlson]

While I can understand some of the philosophical points being made in this thread, I'd ask everyone to re-read our community guidelines with regard to this topic: http://www.hinterlandforums.com/announcement/40-rules-and-guidelines-for-the-hinterland-forums/

Hacking/cracking isn't a topic we need to finely debate or define in our forums. Just a friendly reminder. Thank you. 

[Mroz4k]

4 minutes ago, Patrick Carlson said:

While I can understand some of the philosophical points being made in this thread, I'd ask everyone to re-read our community guidelines with regard to this topic: http://www.hinterlandforums.com/announcement/40-rules-and-guidelines-for-the-hinterland-forums/

Hacking/cracking isn't a topic we need to finely debate or define in our forums. Just a friendly reminder. Thank you. 

Good point.

Its pointless debate to begin with, considering the game will eventually be more open, once the mod support is finished.

[Smilezz_g21]

Small question here. If TLD gets mod support,then will it be possible to port them to xbox?

[KinoUnko]

probably Steam only.