Extended map discovery based on elevation

[Morphine]

Simple idea which could make map creation less boring, still hard and more intuitive. Also something very easy to code.

==> Provide a decent bonus (with maybe a special option) when player is on a high location (typically watchtower on Mystery lake) and decides to complete his map. Something like x5 normal discovery circle.

After all, you can see a large part of the map on those location when sky is clear. IRL that's probably the first thing to do actually, going high and assessing/mapping the area. This would also push more people to go on those specific places.

[Mroz4k]

Welcome to the forums!
And sorry, but this is a "no" - like I have explained before, the air has optical properties, and just by seeing items from far away does not mean you would be able to correctly judge the distance in between landmarks, and the resulting map would be imprecise, or just plain wrong.

[godhelpme89]

I would love this idea, would also like to see binoculars

[Mroz4k]

1 hour ago, godhelpme89 said:

I would love this idea, would also like to see binoculars

Those would actually make the issue even worse, human mind can somehow compensate for the fact that what we see is a bit different in reality, but if you show it through a lenses, your distance guess will be way too off. Just try it sometimes - stand in an elevated position and paper, and try to start marking down the landmarks. If they are far away, you will have hard time judging distances in between these landmarks.

[ArcherAC3]

4 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Those would actually make the issue even worse, human mind can somehow compensate for the fact that what we see is a bit different in reality, but if you show it through a lenses, your distance guess will be way too off. Just try it sometimes - stand in an elevated position and paper, and try to start marking down the landmarks. If they are far away, you will have hard time judging distances in between these landmarks.

I believe marksmen in the military must learn how to judge distances and draw sketches of the area, both by using their own eyes as by using optical gear, such as binoculars:

So really, I don't think that's any near impossible, it's just a skill one has to learn.

Now, I don't know how skilled a bush pilot would be in this case.

 

[Mroz4k]

Yes, they need to learn to do it. Or at least I believe they still do. It takes some knowledge of physics and some practise, but it can be done. However, most of the scopes for rifles have markings on them that help the sniper to judge the distance, I am sure most people round here know this from FPS games. On top of that, they usually use rangefinders, which is a device that emits a weak laser pointer and by the use of it can measure the distance - those would naturally not work thanks to Aurora.

Hunters would as well sometimes draw sketches of area when they are hunting. That comes with experience.
Still, dont think an ordinary person would be able to judge that distance very accuratedly, or draw an acurate sketch unless they painted everything, like it is in the TLD, everything around.

Besides, is it really neccesary - the maps work fine as they are. It gives people something to do, besides I believe the maps were mostly intended to use for marking of important locations, rather then everything - for example the patch of saplings one cant take right now would be marked for later recovery.

[Hesha]

Good suggestion and I'd consider it complete nonsense that optical illusions caused by the physical properties of the air would play any role in this. Ranges in TLD are ridiculously short, maps are very small. ML is what, about 2-3 miles across? @Morphinesuggested to extend the mapping radius to 5x what it is now, which as far as I understand is somewhere between 50 and 80 m. Obviously there are no weird optical effects at ranges of 250m.

This, I do agree - elevation with unimpeded view should increase the mapping radius.

[Mroz4k]

You are strongly undervaluing the effects of light that is reflected of the snow and other issues like atmospheric pressure or the (albeit very small) light fraction caused by air, more so by air which has particles like snowflakes in it.

I have done sketches of areas before, and they were never very good, never precise. On top of that I have never used charcoal for them, just pencil. I expect that in time I would get better at it.

In reality, you would have to go and fill the map from one spot to another, never leaving the area you have already painted too much far behind. Else your map would be imprecise. I dont think you really get the point i am trying to make - the area around is not the problem, problem is the map on the paper - if you misjudge it at all, you are going to come down with an imprecise map which is more likely to confuse you rather then help you get correct directions. 
Imagine you stand at one end of the clearing in ML, right below where the original forestry lookout used to be, on one of the edges of it. You paint it - and if you dont judge the distance properly, the clearing will appear on your map bigger then it really should be. Now in this particular place it may not matter much, because there is nothing of interest in that area, but make a miscalculation like that on a map like Forlorn Muskeq with the ice plains, and your map may send you to a place where there should be a safe path, but there will be weak ice in your path instead. Judging distance may be fine, being able to precisely put it on paper in a correct measure is going to be the real problem.

Besides, it is good as it is right now - it adds quite a challenge. 

[godhelpme89]

So your saying that our character, in game, the one that is apparently an artist/cartographer extraordinaire? The one that knows exactly where they are at all times? The one that can spot every mushroom in a 100 meter radius? The one that can spot a deer carcass on the other side of a mountain? And they can do all this because they have a piece of charcoal in there hand. You are saying that it is out of the realm of possibility that they could add a few meters to those magic powers if they were a little higher?

We are not talking about realism, we are talking about this game.

[godhelpme89]

And as far as the military guessing ranges, I was a forward observer. I did this every day and was good at it, and I'm an idiot. So if I can do it....

[kurja]

McKenzie is a pilot. In other words, someone who is trained in reading maps and judging distances from an elevated position.

An extended range is the expected behavior of the in-game charting action; the moment I found out how to use the charcoal, I moved to a higher ground where I could see farther to map a larger area at once. And it's not like the crude in-game charcoal-marked map was unrealistically precise to begin with.
I'd expect to at least be able to chart the locations of obvious, large structures when they are in plain sight.

[godhelpme89]

Didn't even think of the whole pilot thing. Good point.

[Fuarian]

I think that this should be implemented but it should be rough. The areas further away should be marked down but they shouldn't be heavily detailed and should be lacking in some detail.

[Morphine]

A similar idea : the radius should increase by the amount map/things you discover. Like a skill to improve with levels.

Mapping should work like other skills. The more you do it,  the better you are at it.

Radius increase or qty of details. Like LvL 1 : map only, LvL 2 : +loot  LvL 3 : radius +25%. LvL 4 radius +50%. And so on. Realistic Idk but definitely supporting the map discoverer thing. It gives you the desire to map more.

[Mroz4k]

1 hour ago, Morphine said:

A similar idea : the radius should increase by the amount map/things you discover. Like a skill to improve with levels.

Mapping should work like other skills. The more you do it,  the better you are at it.

Radius increase or qty of details. Like LvL 1 : map only, LvL 2 : +loot  LvL 3 : radius +25%. LvL 4 radius +50%. And so on. Realistic Idk but definitely supporting the map discoverer thing. It gives you the desire to map more.

That I think could be a better idea, still I dont think it is at all neccesary. Mapping right now is a challenge, true, but it should be for stubborn people that want to complete the whole map, which is not an easy task, not even on Pilgrim. Because maps were never intended to be fully completed, but instead they were supposed to be revealed in places where resources are, that you want to later retrieve. 

And if this was the case, then I think a bit lower percentages would be good:
Level 1: normal
Level 2: +10% to revealed radius, no for loot
Level 3: +20% to revealed radius, +10% to revealed loot radius
Level 4: + 30% to revealed radius, + 10% to revealed loot radius, charting takes 15% less time
Level 5: + 30% to revealed radius, + 15% to revealed loot radius, charting takes 25% less time, obtains 2 charcoal per hour of fire burned

Mapping should stay difficult - if it is, it gives people something to do in the endgame and that is a good thing.

On 29. 8. 2017 at 2:59 PM, godhelpme89 said:

And as far as the military guessing ranges, I was a forward observer. I did this every day and was good at it, and I'm an idiot. So if I can do it....

The key part of that sentence is "I did this every day". As one can imagine, doing something every day means they get pretty damn good in it. And its not like that for everyone. Besides, I am pretty sure nobody just gave you binoculars to hand and tell you "tell me how far away that is" - but you had some instructor explain you a couple of things, which is the luxury that average person would not have.

I saw some people claiming that they should be able to scribble in the obviously visible locations from a far - and that is EXACTLY where the issue would happen. If you did that, then tried to finish the map from different spot later on, you would find out that you misjudged the "location of that radio tower" in your map, and after finishing the land layout around it, you would realize that the map you now made is cutting off a decent portion of some part of the map. Or, if you judged it to be further then it is, the map you would make would be cut off from the rest of your map by a blank space of the paper. Such map would be rather useless, as it would be more confusing then helpful.

 

[cekivi]

Welcome to the forums @Morphine 

And don't be so hard on yourself @godhelpme89. You managed not to call any shots down on yourself so you can't be that dumb  

@Mroz4k: While you're right that judging distances may be difficult to a lay person the OP is still a good idea. You should still be able to see your immediate vicinity without too many inherent problems. 

[CitrinePeridot]

17 hours ago, cekivi said:

Welcome to the forums @Morphine 

And don't be so hard on yourself @godhelpme89. You managed not to call any shots down on yourself so you can't be that dumb  

@Mroz4k: While you're right that judging distances may be difficult to a lay person the OP is still a good idea. You should still be able to see your immediate vicinity without too many inherent problems. 

Agreed.

[Mroz4k]

On 5. 9. 2017 at 3:25 AM, cekivi said:

While you're right that judging distances may be difficult to a lay person the OP is still a good idea. You should still be able to see your immediate vicinity without too many inherent problems. 

5x the normal circle is ridiculous. That is basically the whole map, right there.

Unless this suggestion is made only for the sake of getting that Steam achievement. Then I would get it. 
Something I could probably get behind is that once you have decently revealed map (like over 90-95%) you could be able to go into a highest elevated location of that particular map, and get an option to "fill in the blanks" - just to get that complete map for achievement. I could get that - but instead of getting a 5times window, it would simply be an option to do, that automatically fills the blanks in. Without the loot located in them, of course.

[cekivi]

8 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Something I could probably get behind is that once you have decently revealed map (like over 90-95%) you could be able to go into a highest elevated location of that particular map, and get an option to "fill in the blanks" - just to get that complete map for achievement. I could get that - but instead of getting a 5times window, it would simply be an option to do, that automatically fills the blanks in. Without the loot located in them, of course.

That would probably work better as far as balancing is concerned. 

[WanderingPalm]

I really like this idea. It just makes sense that you can map a larger distance from a higher point of view. Actually, I had just assumed that the game already did this, which was why I gave the game a pass when, on a clear day at Coastal Highway, I was unable to draw the fishing cabins in full view from the cabin I was currently next to. If height plays no part in the mapping radius, then boy, that mapping distance is way too small! I'd also like to suggest a larger map distance when you have an unobstructed view-- like when you're on a flat frozen lake with nothing around to impede your view (and obviously during high-visibility weather conditions). I think the current radius should reveal things as normal, like corpses, plants, and buildings, but the expanded radius should only reveal buildings (and corpses if it was drawn when there were crows circling, perhaps).

The current map distance is fine, if not overly generous when you're in wooded or rocky terrain, but it treats mapping on all terrain the same, which feels off.

One last thought: I'd love to be able to mark on my map... like note which wall the door of a building is on. Or where I'm currently stockpiling items. Or where that prepper's cache I found was. Or where wolves seem to be active. Or where that mine entrance that refuses to be mapped is, and where it goes.

[Morphine]

Glad to see this idea coming along ! I hope it will conduct to something real.