Wintermute comments

[Thrasador]

Just now, JAFO said:

You're welcome.. I'm happy to count you as a friend.

Same! 

[Carbon]

3 hours ago, Thrasador said:

PS Carbon, I just don't like arguing in general, I find it extremely upsetting and mentally taxing.....arguing literally makes my brain hurt physically. That's why I came to the conclusion it is better for me to simply ignore you, than it is for us to continue going back and forth over most comments I try to make. Maybe you enjoy it and find it mentally stimulating....like social chess. I do not.

 I do indeed like a good discussion but I would hesitate to call it 'argument' in the sense that you mean. However, I will make adjustments and hope that we too can move forward in peace. As I have said a couple of times, you are a benefit to this forum and the people that come here with your experience and availability.

 So...are we back on track then...?

[Carbon]

4 hours ago, JAFO said:

Despite my own rather substantial experience, nor did I.. in retrospect, it does shed some light on some of his actions and comments.. I wish I'd realised earlier. I don't agree with you that he has some kind of responsibility to divulge his condition up-front though.. that's no way to go through life.

 Generally speaking I agree with you, but in this situation, I think it's important; I see what happened in this thread as being a clear enough demonstration of what can happen otherwise. If the situation had been made clear, then perhaps things would have gone in a different, more patient direction.

 I recall in my first post here I stated very clearly that I am a very pedantic person; details are terribly important to me. I said this because I had made a decision to really join in on this forum and in order to make my words better understood to those who may read them, I was upfront about a personality characteristic which can be mistaken as simply being a jerk (and indeed has/is). Thus, in situations where it might be an issue, in fairness to others and to oneself, I think its best to be up front about relevant facts.

[WanderingPalm]

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in here, too. Upon finishing Episode 1, I feel like some things are just too abrupt. Like the first time you go from a cutscene to a silent text dialogue--which for me was completely immersion-breaking. And the end sequence to Episode 1. I'm not opposed to a sudden cliffhanger at all, but having it happen the second you exit the load screen of exiting the area? (I'm trying to avoid spoilers, so hopefully those of you who played it know what I'm talking about) It was simply TOO abrupt. Like, it needed a transition scene of Will walking a little bit, then encountering the scenario. And after the scene, the sudden pop-up of thanks to the supporters still felt like it was IN the scene. There wasn't a clear ending of the episode until the credits started to roll, so I was confused why the game would choose now to thank its supporters. At least, that's how it felt to me.

I should pause here and say I absolutely love Survival mode and bought this game ages ago because I never really needed more than that. There are so many wonderful aspects to the game that I won't get into here just to save us all the time, so please understand I'm only trying to offer constructive criticism based on my experience with the game, or tell what points took me out of the story.

I am also confused about some parts of the story, which will definitely get into spoiler territory, so I think I'll put that in another post instead of here. But I will say that it irritated me how obtuse Will is. Perhaps that is simply his character, but there were times that I was actually yelling at the screen because Will kept failing to understand things. I don't know if the intention was to make me think that Will is an idiot, but that's definitely where I'm at right now. He also seems to deliberately ignore some things (like the first corpse he sees), and then reacts to later ones as the first time he's seen something (like the corpse on the farm). It feels like he needs more reactions to the things around him if he's going to have any at all.

Oops, I have to go, so I'll finish my thoughts later. Thanks for listening (or reading, I suppose).

[Thrasador]

1 hour ago, WanderingPalm said:

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in here, too. Upon finishing Episode 1, I feel like some things are just too abrupt. Like the first time you go from a cutscene to a silent text dialogue--which for me was completely immersion-breaking. And the end sequence to Episode 1. I'm not opposed to a sudden cliffhanger at all, but having it happen the second you exit the load screen of exiting the area? (I'm trying to avoid spoilers, so hopefully those of you who played it know what I'm talking about) It was simply TOO abrupt. Like, it needed a transition scene of Will walking a little bit, then encountering the scenario. And after the scene, the sudden pop-up of thanks to the supporters still felt like it was IN the scene. There wasn't a clear ending of the episode until the credits started to roll, so I was confused why the game would choose now to thank its supporters. At least, that's how it felt to me.

I should pause here and say I absolutely love Survival mode and bought this game ages ago because I never really needed more than that. There are so many wonderful aspects to the game that I won't get into here just to save us all the time, so please understand I'm only trying to offer constructive criticism based on my experience with the game, or tell what points took me out of the story.

I am also confused about some parts of the story, which will definitely get into spoiler territory, so I think I'll put that in another post instead of here. But I will say that it irritated me how obtuse Will is. Perhaps that is simply his character, but there were times that I was actually yelling at the screen because Will kept failing to understand things. I don't know if the intention was to make me think that Will is an idiot, but that's definitely where I'm at right now. He also seems to deliberately ignore some things (like the first corpse he sees), and then reacts to later ones as the first time he's seen something (like the corpse on the farm). It feels like he needs more reactions to the things around him if he's going to have any at all.

Oops, I have to go, so I'll finish my thoughts later. Thanks for listening (or reading, I suppose).

Valid points....thank you!

[Thrasador]

21 hours ago, Carbon said:

 I do indeed like a good discussion but I would hesitate to call it 'argument' in the sense that you mean. However, I will make adjustments and hope that we too can move forward in peace. As I have said a couple of times, you are a benefit to this forum and the people that come here with your experience and availability.

 So...are we back on track then...?

@JAFOpassed along your olive branch. I accept, and have removed you from the list. We can see how it goes... 

In the event I read something that makes me want to stab myself in the eye, I'll have to revert it though, lol. 

Like I said, I agree....I don't think you ARE even trying to argue...not in the traditional sense. I think you are just being you, which is "extremely pedantic," or however you phrased it....so in the end it may be difficult for you to really do a whole lot about it. Just like it is hard for me to not sound rude when I am being extremely honest. I just say what I think, and what I think has historically gotten me fired A LOT.....lol.

[Carbon]

All of this really doesn't belong on a public forum. We should be handling this through PMs, but I will publicly respond to you one last time and then I am well and truly done. I am happy to pursue it privately if you desire.

 In all of my experiences with people who have physical or cognitive challenges, the one thing they have always communicated as most annoying is being treated or looked at differently. Perhaps you are the exception to this, but I won't be part of that and will have the respect to treat you as a fully capable individual, with some empathetic adjustment*.

 Somewhat aside: As I understand Asperger's, it is not that others bother the afflicted, but the reverse; that the afflicted has the potential to be misunderstood as being rude. It seems that you have some kind of reverse-Asperger's? If being upset by people is indicative or symptomatic of the problem, then I may have it in spades and thus, I'm not fully convinced that we aren't just having a personality difference here. I didn't take issue with you until your 864th post which is hardly indicative of an annoying or rude person (for whom, like you, I typically have no time).

 Regardless, and to the point, I'm sorry to be so direct but if I bother you then by all means keep me blocked; it is of no significance to me (why should I care if you don’t like me and how would I know if you have me blocked?) and that is indeed why the option exists (as does the option for you to simply scroll past my comments).  Exercising the option to ignore me is far more useful for the health and morale of the forum.

 Thus, Ignoring me may well be in your best personal interests and as with everyone, you need to act in line with those interests. However, if done, you needn't be dramatic about it, as it is a personal decision for which you need no public support to enact nor maintain. I'm sure many have 'ignored' me here, but you're the only one who made this choice public.

 To close, I fully support your right to ignore me and *will try to be more careful in my direct interactions with you, but I will not censor or moderate myself generally. This is all I can do and all you can ask.

 Take care and (really) all the best.

[Thrasador]

1 hour ago, Carbon said:

All of this really doesn't belong on a public forum. We should be handling this through PMs, but I will publicly respond to you one last time and then I am well and truly done. I am happy to pursue it privately if you desire.

 

 In all of my experiences with people who have physical or cognitive challenges, the one thing they have always communicated as most annoying is being treated or looked at differently. Perhaps you are the exception to this, but I won't be part of that and will have the respect to treat you as a fully capable individual, with some empathetic adjustment*.

 

 Somewhat aside: As I understand Asperger's, it is not that others bother the afflicted, but the reverse; that the afflicted has the potential to be misunderstood as being rude. It seems that you have some kind of reverse-Asperger's? If being upset by people is indicative or symptomatic of the problem, then I may have it in spades and thus, I'm not fully convinced that we aren't just having a personality difference here. I didn't take issue with you until your 864th post which is hardly indicative of an annoying or rude person (for whom, like you, I typically have no time).

 

 Regardless, and to the point, I'm sorry to be so direct but if I bother you then by all means keep me blocked; it is of no significance to me (why should I care if you don’t like me and how would I know if you have me blocked?) and that is indeed why the option exists (as does the option for you to simply scroll past my comments).  Exercising the option to ignore me is far more useful for the health and morale of the forum.

 

 Thus, Ignoring me may well be in your best personal interests and as with everyone, you need to act in line with those interests. However, if done, you needn't be dramatic about it, as it is a personal decision for which you need no public support to enact nor maintain. I'm sure many have 'ignored' me here, but you're the only one who made this choice public.

 

 To close, I fully support your right to ignore me and *will try to be more careful in my direct interactions with you, but I will not censor or moderate myself generally. This is all I can do and all you can ask.

 

 Take care and (really) all the best.

 

Ok. I agree!

[Ruruwawa]

18 hours ago, WanderingPalm said:

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in here, too. Upon finishing Episode 1, I feel like some things are just too abrupt. Like the first time you go from a cutscene to a silent text dialogue--which for me was completely immersion-breaking.

Good post -- I agreed with a lot of it.  Re: this particular thought, like many I found the transition to silent dialogue jarring too.  What's more, I didn't understand that the dialogue itself had a purpose beyond more (annoyingly unvoiced) lore.  At the point I had no idea it initiated missions, maps, crafting, gear, etc.  What's more, I got stuck a few times before I realized it.

I wonder if both issues could be helped by having a Tutorial immediately after the first Grey Mother cutscene ends, explaining the purpose of the interactive dialogue. Knowing the purpose might make the break from the cutscene feel less abrupt.

[Carbon]

 Not sure Ruruwawa. I think the abruptness is simply a by-product of there being two methods of transmission and nothing will make that shift smoother; the voiced dialogue has to end sometime and a tutorial or pop-up screen telling me that the rest will be text-based would be stranger still.

 I think people know well the purpose of the dialogues, as it is hardly new or unique to TLD so as was said earlier (or in another thread?), it may be best to simply go with one or the other; fully voiced or not at all. If one were to walk in GM's house and the text-based dialogues came up, everyone would know exactly what to do and it would be consistent with what would follow.

 Hard to say which method is more immersive, but my vote is for all text-based because I am not a fan of long, un-skippable dialogues. Humans read much faster than they speak (and thus listen), so for pure efficiency and player autonomy, click-through text is my method of choice.

[Thrasador]

32 minutes ago, Ruruwawa said:

Good post -- I agreed with a lot of it.  Re: this particular thought, like many I found the transition to silent dialogue jarring too.  What's more, I didn't understand that the dialogue itself had a purpose beyond more (annoyingly unvoiced) lore.  At the point I had no idea it initiated missions, maps, crafting, gear, etc.  What's more, I got stuck a few times before I realized it.

I wonder if both issues could be helped by having a Tutorial immediately after the first Grey Mother cutscene ends, explaining the purpose of the interactive dialogue. Knowing the purpose might make the break from the cutscene feel less abrupt.

They could explain getting the trust rewards by initiating trust dialogue after gaining trust with an NPC (and trading trust items with NPCs for that matter)....and reading the journal for lore after unlocking it....

Those are the less than clear bits....

[WanderingPalm]

4 hours ago, Thrasador said:

They could explain getting the trust rewards by initiating trust dialogue after gaining trust with an NPC (and trading trust items with NPCs for that matter)....and reading the journal for lore after unlocking it....

Those are the less than clear bits....

Yeah, those definitely were unclear-- I only discovered the page about her trust in my notes by accident. Actually, the map in your inventory should also be explained at some point, especially considering the things that just get added to it without telling you-- and after playing Survival, why would anyone expect to just have a full map of the area that auto-updates to mark caches and mission objectives? And why would the player assume there was important lore and game tutorials in their menu when the game punishes you for spending too long in your inventory (including the area with those notes that you're expected to read). This was definitely unintuitive for me.

I'm also in favor of choosing one type or the other-- voiced or text-- but this could also potentially be helped by simply ending the interaction at the end of the cutscene. Then, when Will initiates conversation with GM after the scene, it's in text. It wouldn't fix the jarring effect of going from one type to the other, but it might help ease the transition a bit.

[JAFO]

6 hours ago, WanderingPalm said:

Actually, the map in your inventory should also be explained at some point, especially considering the things that just get added to it without telling you

Heck yeah.. and the fact that NPC's give you items at times, but the game doesn't inform you that they've done so.. that's just nuts.

[Thrasador]

8 hours ago, JAFO said:

Heck yeah.. and the fact that NPC's give you items at times, but the game doesn't inform you that they've done so.. that's just nuts.

Yeah like Grey Mother's sharpening stone that just ends up in your inventory. When that occurs (I need to do more testing to verify this) I believe the whetstone can occupy the spot of another item in your inventory and make that item disappear. I meant to go back and check that, but then I forgot about it.....

[Dougie]

What I'd like to see is when entering the dwelling of "your helper", you automatically get replenished with food, not actually eating, but it's assumed you were given a meal if you entered the place near starving. A fitting thing, considering you're both doing each other a favor. 

[Carbon]

6 hours ago, Dougie said:

What I'd like to see is when entering the dwelling of "your helper", you automatically get replenished with food, not actually eating, but it's assumed you were given a meal if you entered the place near starving. A fitting thing, considering you're both doing each other a favor. 

 There is some soup on the hearth for you...once.

[JAFO]

3 hours ago, Carbon said:

There is some soup on the hearth for you...once.

I've gotten 3 soups from GM in the one playthrough..

[Puckway]

3 hours ago, JAFO said:

I've gotten 3 soups from GM in the one playthrough..

What? How did that happen?

I ate mine immediately after she gave it to me and that´s it. Did the soup just respawn for you after entering her house some time later?

[JAFO]

1 hour ago, Puckway said:

What? How did that happen?

I ate mine immediately after she gave it to me and that´s it. Did the soup just respawn for you after entering her house some time later?

I made her happy enough on three separate occasions that she gave me some soup, which I ate then and there each time. Don't know if it helped that I'd brought enough rabbit pelts with me from the trip to Milton that I maxed out her trust as soon as I arrived.. but yes, each time it was individually earned.

[togg]

I've just played a couple of hours of Wintermute, I couldn't play more because it's simply too easy for me and I don't find it interesting, which isn't a big deal. I've watched some streams of new players, it seems to work perfectly for them. It's a tricky game to start from scratch, if the pacing works for them it's a success. Of course it would have been possible to have difficulty modes in Wintermute but this needs additional time which clearly they didn't have. Since I didn't care that much about story mode in the first place it's ok

But in those two hours I've noticed quite a few strange things...

The fire that can last forever if you don't put 9h in it all in once.

A very unbalanced use of the cinematics, they came in without a proper intro and last way too long.

A not so good movie direction in the npc part, it's strange, with all the nice visual material you have it's strange to get only this.

The spoken part to silent part transition could have been done better (at all...).

 

It's just strange to see those kind of missing points after all this time in development, it's something that should be pointed out by a good beta tester.

[Fuarian]

On 8/20/2017 at 4:35 PM, wren said:

Hi Carbon

I'm so glad that you have enjoyed story mode thus far, so have I.  I want to clarify that, despite some obvious story holes and continuity problems, some of which are pointed out by you above, there is considerable back story available to players as they move through the episodes.  

The "collapse" as referred to by Grey Mother, is an economic collapse which has developed over time.  These conditions are prevalent in many Canadian communities with resource-based economies (lumber in BC, fisheries in Atlantic Canada...).  She alludes to the dependance on the "mainland" for jobs, goods and services no longer being generated locally, as well as a growing dependance and subsequent abandonment by the "South", (i.e. softwood lumber disputes).  People leave these communities when the resources dwindle or are sourced elsewhere and the economy fails as jobs are lost and markets shift and tariffs prohibit viable resource extraction. Hence the boarded up houses.

There are also references to literal "collapses", rockfalls, landslides etc. as a result of increasing seismic activity.  This has made the dam dangerous and obsolete, thus increasing dependance, and has compounded the isolation as access to elsewhere is becoming more limited.  Efforts to maintain connection through "skype" and "drones" are inadequate to ensure viability of these communities, though the descriptions add a little comic relief for players as we flush out our understanding of the history of Milton.

 

The final event, coinciding with an aurora borealis, has caused a collapse of the electronic world, a collapse of the tunnel leading out of Milton, and the collapse of Will's little bush plane into the mountainside near Milton. Though Will's initial concern is to find Astrid, he soon realizes that he needs a plan to continue to venture safely about in his quest.  He needs to stay safe, he needs to know the area, and he needs to build relationship with the few people that remain behind.  As he does so, we are left to ponder and grow knowledge about how these "collapses" are related to each other, and the various ways that the inhabitants of Great Bear have adapted their lives in response to economic, cultural and environmental change.  (some left early for lack of livlihood: Pastor skypes his sermons to a dwindling congregation; some will never leave and will succumb eventually: GM; some stay on because their subsistence lifestyle is not so impacted by the collapse(s): Jeremiah; some believe they can make a difference and restore the past: Forest Talkers; some remain due to circumstances: prisoners; and some who did not survive their attempts to flee upon being terrified by the final "collapse", the geomagnetic event.)

 

I for one am super-keen to see how these themes develop in future episodes, while learning more about the personal stories of Will and Astrid, and their encounters along the way.  It’s not so vital for me to see if they find each other or not, or when.  And, of course, I enjoy the game-play throughout.  I enjoyed the fetch quests and the side quests, as they are effective for learning the maps, more so I think than teaching the mechanics of gameplay.  They provide opportunities for learning to ‘read’ the game: the weather patterns, the soundscape, the animal characters and the best ways to live amongst them.  I feel that Hinterland’s greatest accomplishment over the course of the game’s development lies in this:  players learn the heart of the game instinctively while playing it.  The landscape is the main character, and as we play we develop intimate knowledge of this, and our place within it.  The ‘tutorials’ help to keep us alive long enough to accomplish this.

The big main theme I'm interested in seeing developed is the idea of how the world is changing. We got a glimpse of it in Episode 1 but more towards the end of Episode 2 with Methuselah's speech on how the world is going through a big change (obviously...). I want to see how people react to the world which depended on technology now being gone, how they will survive, how far they will go. Stuff like that. And I also want there to be a bit about the symbolism of the Aurora.