suggestion please add spears to the game

[akodo1]

8 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

 

And you seriously claim that only reason that arrows are effective is because animal is not aware of hunters presence ? Are you serious ? Considering that were dealing with inexperienced archer and makeshift bow, its effective range is maybe, just maybe, around 30 meters, so its hardly "long range".

Animals flee because they are hurt, because they are scared, because they are disoriented. None of those are require surprise attack, not to mention that often bows, in game, are used on close ranges at charging wolves and have no problem killing them in 1 shot. Spear could be as effective as arrow, since while it lacks speed it makes up with force due to increased weight. Only problem with throwing vs stabbing is accuracy, otherwise they both could be equally lethal.

@Lovehandel Adding weapons and tools and pretty much anything will expand gaming experince, adding options, in both gameplay and crafting. Sure, we could just do everything with rifle and knife, why would we need bow or hatchet or hacksaw, they are not really necessary for survival, they merely add depth additional options.

Why not have a chance for insta kill ? Its not guaranteed, but having 10-15% chance for fast kill would add uncertainty component to those encounters. Chance is not high enough to rely on it, but it also may be a pleasant surprise when facing a wolf.

Split second ? To pull out your spear, prep it and then stab with it ? And what, always successful stab, if player manages to fit into that split second ? Thats the worse qte implementation possible, and qtes are universally hated to begin with.

Spear should have chance to kill, to wound, to just graze animal. Based on skill, luck and player reaction time. So that it would keep player guessing every time it happens, instead of having guaranteed singular outcome.

Why ? Why every next iteration of stick would make it more effective brandishing tool ? Why would i need a staff to make a spear ? Spears during wolf struggle would be less than useless. Its a weapon that needs some range between player and its attacker.

Why do ppl think that brandishing a stick in front of a wolf is a good idea ? Wolves dislike fire, thats why torches may scare them away. Why stick would scare wolf away ? Its not recommended to do in front of dogs, and while wolves are not dogs, certain parallels may be drawn. Id say effect of brandishing stick in front of wolf would be between none and pissing it off(and its not exactly cuddly to begin with), making it even more aggressive, able to take more damage and dealing more damage when it engages.. 

Best bet for defensive stick usage is either to hold it in front of you and attempt to restrain animal from taking a bite by either sticking it into its mouth(altho if stick is not sturdy enough it may just bite right thru it) or stick it under its chin, when it attacks. Or by trying to poke it into the eye(pain+disorientation) or cause any damage that would cause sufficient pain forcing it to disengage.

30 meters is a long range for a bowshot.  That's something that takes experience.  Most bow-shots by modern hunters using modern bows are around 10-20 meters, and 30 meters is considered the max reasonable range for various reasons.  If you here about people making 50-60 meter shots, those are people who fail at properly judging distance.  Most people have no idea how far of a distance 50 meters is.  It's a heck of a long ways.

That being said...

I've never been very happy with the bow and arrow in game.  For starters I figure that your hand-crafted bow is not a high quality bown.  You are just a regular guy with a makeshift bow, not a bow craftsman who has gotten lost.  I suspect that the makeshift bow is going to be a 20-25lb draw weight, MAYBE 30.  For references, most states have a 40 lb minimum draw weight for hunting deer with bows, but some have lowered it to 30.  Note that the assumption is that you are using a light-weight shaft with a razor sharp broadhead, not a home-built arrow with a questionable arrowhead.  This means that in-game made bow is a very short range weapon, and honestly would be better suited to hunting rabbits.  

It's possible that you could put an arrow in a deer and then track it to where it eventually bleeds out, but this very primitive type of hunting, your arrow isn't going to puncture very deep, and it's going to stay in the wound, which means a lot less blood coming out...so less trail and more time.  Generally someone hunting with a modern bow and modern arrow with a modern tip will have the arrow pass right through the animal, which makes a very long internal wound that bleeds a lot, and bleeds out from two spots.

You aren't going to peg a charging wolf with an arrow and kill it before it sinks it's teeth into you.  Your weak bow is unlikely to have the force to penetrate the wolf' skull.  Oh, the wolf might change track and run off once you sink an arrow into it's shoulder or cut a nice grove in his head, but not an instant-kill.

So for me, making a spear and sneaking up close to a deer is probably a more accurate survival hunting method than having a very weak bow and sneaking up close to a deer.  The spear is going to deliver a bigger wound, more 'shock' to the deer's system, and when the animal bolts the spear is going to probably fall out in a few strides, leaving a nice bleeding wound.

So the way I see it, you craft a bow more for rabbit hunting (yes this becomes redundant with snares) more than for deer hunting, and NOT as a wolf defense weapon.

While you can take a deer with an arrow if you are willing to sneak up close and do a lot of tracking afterwards, the spear is a better choice.  It's still requiring you to sneak up close, and it's less accurate but when you DO hit, it bleeds more, runs slower, dies sooner.

For wolf, you could in theory hunt them equally effectively with the spear, but if it's charging don't expect the wolf to die if you manage to chuck the spear and hit it, expect it to run off bleeding.  Really, for a wolf, the spear as I envision it, if not thrown, then the results would be as follows

20% chance - miss - QTE just like any other wolf fight.

60% chance - land a glancing blow - QTE fight, but less time before you fight the wolf off, so less damage to you, your gear, etc.

20% chance - land a killing blow - no QTE event, but you start like you just won the QTE fight, you are on the ground, you stand up and there is the wolf bleeding and retreating.

 

 

[Dirmagnos]

@akodo1 Those insta kill headshots have been discussion topic for a while also. Its fairly absurd considering that chances of killing animal in this way are extremely low. But in tLD headshot is a sureshot.

One thing that no1 ever goes 4 irl, be it hunter or sharpshooter, are headshots. Its 2 small of a target, its extremely agile and constantly moving, and there is absolutely no guarantee that it will be a kill shot.

[Boston123]

2 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Saying that primitive weapons kill thru blood loss is like saying that all aviation-related deaths are caused by plane crashes. Its misleading and incomplete statement, to put it mildly. Most weapons, not just primitive ones, can kill thru blood loss, but they also can kill thru shock or tissue damage, there are a several other causes.

And you seriously claim that only reason that arrows are effective is because animal is not aware of hunters presence ? Are you serious ? Considering that were dealing with inexperienced archer and makeshift bow, its effective range is maybe, just maybe, around 30 meters, so its hardly "long range".

Animals flee because they are hurt, because they are scared, because they are disoriented. None of those are require surprise attack, not to mention that often bows, in game, are used on close ranges at charging wolves and have no problem killing them in 1 shot. Spear could be as effective as arrow, since while it lacks speed it makes up with force due to increased weight. Only problem with throwing vs stabbing is accuracy, otherwise they both could be equally lethal.

@Lovehandel Adding weapons and tools and pretty much anything will expand gaming experince, adding options, in both gameplay and crafting. Sure, we could just do everything with rifle and knife, why would we need bow or hatchet or hacksaw, they are not really necessary for survival, they merely add depth additional options.

Why not have a chance for insta kill ? Its not guaranteed, but having 10-15% chance for fast kill would add uncertainty component to those encounters. Chance is not high enough to rely on it, but it also may be a pleasant surprise when facing a wolf.

Split second ? To pull out your spear, prep it and then stab with it ? And what, always successful stab, if player manages to fit into that split second ? Thats the worse qte implementation possible, and qtes are universally hated to begin with.

Spear should have chance to kill, to wound, to just graze animal. Based on skill, luck and player reaction time. So that it would keep player guessing every time it happens, instead of having guaranteed singular outcome.

Why ? Why every next iteration of stick would make it more effective brandishing tool ? Why would i need a staff to make a spear ? Spears during wolf struggle would be less than useless. Its a weapon that needs some range between player and its attacker.

Why do ppl think that brandishing a stick in front of a wolf is a good idea ? Wolves dislike fire, thats why torches may scare them away. Why stick would scare wolf away ? Its not recommended to do in front of dogs, and while wolves are not dogs, certain parallels may be drawn. Id say effect of brandishing stick in front of wolf would be between none and pissing it off(and its not exactly cuddly to begin with), making it even more aggressive, able to take more damage and dealing more damage when it engages.. 

Best bet for defensive stick usage is either to hold it in front of you and attempt to restrain animal from taking a bite by either sticking it into its mouth(altho if stick is not sturdy enough it may just bite right thru it) or stick it under its chin, when it attacks. Or by trying to poke it into the eye(pain+disorientation) or cause any damage that would cause sufficient pain forcing it to disengage.

1) All weapons kill through blood loss, but let me know next time you see a knife leave a permanent wound cavity 6+ inches in diameter, like a bullet.

2) I never said that, please do not put words into my mouth. 

3) Arrows "work best" when used on an unsuspecting target because the fear and pain causes the animal to run away from you, as well as allowing you to make the best possible shot so the animal bleeds out faster. If you try to shoot a charging animal with an arrow, chances are you are going to get mauled to death before the animal bleeds out,  and that is even if you make an adequate shot and hit a major organ or blood vessel.

3) Arrows are lightweight, but move quickly. Spears are heavy, but move slowly. Not to mention that throwing spears require specific balance for throwing. Arrows are balanced for shooting as part of the crafting process. Generally, balancing a spear for thrusting in hand-to-hand makes it unbalanced for throwing.

4) The in-game bow being a one-shot kill on charging animals is because the game isn't all that realistic, contrary to popular opinion. Shoot an animal in the head with an arrow in real life, and enjoy getting your throat ripped out. Again, arrows kill through blood loss, they don't hit with enough force to stop a charging animal.

The Devs really need to remove the headshot = instant kill mechanic. 

5) As someone that makes bows in real life, 30 meters is insanely long range for a wooden selfbow, at least for a targeted lethal shot. Yes, you can get longer ranges with a compound bow with all the bells and whistles, but, as someone that hunts in real life with the bow and arrows I make, generally 20 meters is the farthest I would shoot from.

again, the game isn't all that realistic.

6) Spoken like someone that has little-to-no actual wilderness survival training. Spears wouldn't be "less than useless", far from it. This statement just makes me almost ignore any and all further comments you make, that is how mistaken you are.

The whole point (heh heh) of a spear is that you don't let the wolf get close to begin with. Again, contrary to popular opinion, wolves and other predators are rather intelligent, and they don't want to get hurt.  A couple of jabs of a spearpoint close to the face of a wolf will make it back off, and reconsider attacking at the very least. Jamming a spearpoint between the ribs will make it run away. Why do you think they run away when you "win" a QTE-fight in-game? 

The wolves are so competent in combat in-game because the characters do everything possible to give them an advantage, not because they are especially good. We are, quite literally, "playing into the wolves hands". Falling on the ground, exposing your throat and stomach, and flailing your limbs around in a panic? Come on, now.

Waving a stick around will most certainly scare a wolf away. In real life, screaming, waving your arms around and making yourself look bigger and more threatening is how you prevent wolf attacks. Adding a stick to that makes you that much bigger and more threatening. The more threatening you make yourself appear, the less likely you are to be attacked, not more.

I am sorry, but that has to be one of the stupidest things I think I have ever read. " Waving a stick aggressively to ward off an attack will make the wolf more aggressive and stronger in combat"?

 what

 You know, what? I'm out. I am sick and tired of repeating myself over and over again. Enjoy your nonsensical thread.

[EternityTide]

Any topic I return to after Dirmagnos has had his say:

[MarrowStone]

@Dirmagnos I meant split second after charge while you have the spear already equipped. 

I suggested not having insta kills for balancing reasons in the game currently (approximately 1 hour to make a spear = players getting the coat within a few days) but I agree that a low chance for it could be implemented, yes. 

And I agree it doesnt have to be a guaranteed outcome all the time, I was just throwing in ideas of what it could do to build on the topic.

[Patrick Carlson]

A friendly reminder to keep it civil in here, everyone. Thank you!