Hate the forge

[Nexus_V]

I don't like the forge seem really pointless other than I have to go there to make arrow heads now, not happy at all about the. The tools you make improvised knive and hatchet are total junk. Never thought man there is just not enough knives and hatchets in the game wish I could make some. The time it takes to make them and The materials you need to make Them along with the food you eat during the whole process is really a waste. Just the way I feel about it. Any thoughts or feed back would be appreciated.

[Hesha]

I have to agree. I think the forge was a step in the wrong direction. To me this game is about survival, scavenging and rudimentary crafting. Using a forge to produce tools from scratch is way over the top.

Rather than opening up a whole new avenue of crafting by introducing a forge (with all the uselessness detailed above), I would appreciate a lot more possibilities to craft things out of scrap and by-products. A sufficiently big pile of scrap metal will hole dozens of different items that could be used as arrow heads, for example. Making an improvised knife for cutting meat and skin doesn't take a forge, all it takes is a sufficiently thick sheet of metal (doesn't even need to be iron/steel, brass or bronze will make a decent enough knife).

Especially since the head of an axe/hatchet is virtually indestructible, there is really no point in making an improvised hatchet. If the plan is to remove standard hatchets in order to make improvised hatchets more useful, that would just be terrible.

[KD7BCH]

There are a lot of ways they could follow on the scavenging and improvised items too spears, all these empty cans you end up creating, the whole idea of water bottles is just ridiculous. As far as is it fun to forge stuff? Well it isn't really its just something to do but we need more survival oriented things to do, like stuffing newspaper into your sleeping bag for more warmth, like collecting waterbottles for capacity, like putting warm water bottles in your sleeping bag, like more realism and less fluff. Again with the fluff in the game. I like the new areas but everything feels like its all a rust community or too dense or too sparse.

Im really getting bothered by the damn crows soundtrack. Can we limit their noise to once or twice, they chip all through the night when all birds STFU once it gets dark until they expect dawn.

[TWM]

The forge wouldn't be such a bad thing, if one could craft some more stuff there that would be really useful, like for instance, a vital part of a bear/wolf trap.

There are some places where such traps would come in mighty handy to weed out the pack.

But as it stands, with the abundance of better quality gear strewn all over the place, the only reason to make the journey to the forge is to make arrow heads, which is a crappy reason to begin with.

[Amazombie]

yeah I agree, at first i was excited ohhh a forge! then i got all the way and realized how much coal it uses vs how much coal can be found in the caves. Then i realized what it could make and how useless they are , and well i havent been back. maybe if it was a game we could mine more coal, or make better things with it. But if you are all the way in ML.. why risk the trek? Why not make an improvised knife out of a bone, or hooks out of fish bone or soda can tabs? there are so many possibilities yet they add the forge. I like the game, but really frustrated with the direction they seem to be taking it.

[Hesha]

Then i realized what it could make and how useless they are , and well i havent been back. maybe if it was a game we could mine more coal, or make better things with it.

Yeah. But from the comments on the latest update the opposite is going to happen. The introduction of the sharpening stone (something we kinda asked for) only serves the purpose to make hatchets and hunting knives to be ruined more quickly in order for us to be forced to move to new areas.

I could KICK myself for not having repaired all my spare hatchets and knives before this update... Now I am stuck with 3 30% hatchets and 3 40% knives with no way of fixing them - obviously I have already looted all containers and I'm not going to find sharpening stones or rifle cleaning kits... the containers in the fishing huts have been reset by the game, but that seems to be about it. Indoor containers are still empty.

[Amazombie]

well see thats my issue, they are forcing us in a way to go there. for items that are crap. Granted they are better than none, but really i think is not the best set up at all

[Hesha]

It isn't. Especially since hatchets, especially the heads, are virtually indestructible. Taking them away from us by means of degradation feels like arbitrary punishment.

[TWM]

obviously I have already looted all containers and I'm not going to find sharpening stones or rifle cleaning kits...

I found a wetstone in the Camp Office even though I already looted the place and a rifle cleaning kit in the Lighthouse in my other game when I woke up, even though I already looted that place, so my guess is they took that into account while updating.

[Hesha]

They did. I only play on ML and all the fishing hut drawers have been replenished (found cloth, matches, scrap metal), but the cabins, camp office and forestry lookout were still completely empty. I don't feel too motivated to hike over to the dam to check there as well...

[Amazombie]

They did. I only play on ML and all the fishing hut drawers have been replenished (found cloth, matches, scrap metal), but the cabins, camp office and forestry lookout were still completely empty. I don't feel too motivated to hike over to the dam to check there as well...

Its because inside, camp office, trappers , anything that has a load screen has its own loot set up.

outside is different. I wont say how, as i dont want to get in trouble , but it is possible to delete a folder and reset the inside loot.

So, the update probably reset all outdoor look would be my guess and over write some indoor loot files as well

[KD7BCH]

yeah I agree, at first i was excited ohhh a forge! then i got all the way and realized how much coal it uses vs how much coal can be found in the caves. Then i realized what it could make and how useless they are , and well i havent been back. maybe if it was a game we could mine more coal, or make better things with it. But if you are all the way in ML.. why risk the trek? Why not make an improvised knife out of a bone, or hooks out of fish bone or soda can tabs? there are so many possibilities yet they add the forge. I like the game, but really frustrated with the direction they seem to be taking it.

Exactly what is the point of running over miles and miles just to make arrow heads and knives and hatchets when you could just craft that with all sorts of metal and bones. I mean would you really walk 5 miles to forge something instead of just spending a few hours making or scavenging locally? What of the ways that pre-historical folks made knives.

[Hesha]

They did. I only play on ML and all the fishing hut drawers have been replenished (found cloth, matches, scrap metal), but the cabins, camp office and forestry lookout were still completely empty. I don't feel too motivated to hike over to the dam to check there as well...

Its because inside, camp office, trappers , anything that has a load screen has its own loot set up.

outside is different. I wont say how, as i dont want to get in trouble , but it is possible to delete a folder and reset the inside loot.

So, the update probably reset all outdoor look would be my guess and over write some indoor loot files as well

It's not that simple. The Forestry Lookout is "outside" as well, as it is part of the main map, still all containers in there were still empty.

[General_Zod]

Sorry i'm not with you on this. The arrowheads are HUGELY important. I rarely use a gun now, except when I need to take a bear down (I have done this with a bow, too). Again, my gameplay might be different, i'm on day 111, and you can run out of ammo....

[Amazombie]

Sorry i'm not with you on this. The arrowheads are HUGELY important. I rarely use a gun now, except when I need to take a bear down (I have done this with a bow, too). Again, my gameplay might be different, i'm on day 111, and you can run out of ammo....

Just a different game play, you can use snares and fish hooks just as easy. you just do more volume than hunting deer , wolf, bear.

[Hesha]

Even if you choose to live off meat only, you can get enough to survive buy simply chasing deer into wolves and then chasing off the wolf with a torch... wearing a wolf coat also seems to have an impact and gives you a % chance that wolves will run away when they see you (at least on Voyageur)...

[ThresholdSeven]

I love the forge. Realism and inconvenience aside, it gives a great reason to go on an adventures and it opens up a door for huge potential which I'm sure is in the works.

The new whetstone mechanic will make the regular knife and hatchet disappear sooner or later, so eventually if you're alive long enough you'll need to make improvised tools. Granted this won't be for thousands of days, but I think it's a step in the right direction for new forge mechanics.

The improvised tools are not that bad. They weigh more and it takes longer to finish a task, but it's not that much of a difference and they can be largely avoided anyway if you don't like them.

The Forge is not that hard to use either. Gather a bunch of coal, which respawns indefinitely just like wood and get a bunch of metal and cloth which is super duper abundant with the addition of the hacksaw and harvestable curtains/towels/furniture. Last time I used the forge I made 10 improvised tools and shortly before that I made about a dozen arrow heads. I'll probably never have to use the forge again until mechanics change, which I hope happens soon. It was a little hard to swallow not being able to make arrowheads at a regular workbench anymore especially since I was so used to it and it is the more realistic choice, but I think the current system is a good choice for the purpose of gameplay.

I understand that a forge is over the top and unrealistic as the only means to make improvised weapons, but I'm willing to bet this won't be the end mechanic and is only the first step in evolution and testing of a forge mechanic.

I love adventuring all over the map and I welcome any challenge that makes it critical to venture across the frozen wasteland. I would like to see more of this implemented, i.e. "I'm running out of x so I have to travel here to use y." Staying on the move is a crucial survival method for gathering materials and the implementation of systems like the forge to force you to travel even during endgame (so you can't just amass tons of supplies in one house and hole up) is welcome to me. Sure, it might be more realistic/safe to eventually build/collect/have everything in one location, but isn't that a recipe for boring repetitive gameplay? I think having reasons to adventure all around the map and revisit areas frequently is much more conducive for an exciting gameplay experience. That is why I always keep bases all over the place and travel between them frequently even though it is risky even in games where I can craft and build everything I need in one location. Opinions may vary and some may like building one base that has it all. I get cabin fever.

[pacificwing]

I have to add my voice to the chorus of people who dislike the forge. Its just so out of place. It seems like a forced mechanic to make arrows (and eventually knives and other stuff) more scarce.

Its starting to feel like a completely different game now. I was hoping Hinterland would be able to expand the exploration, survival and atmosphere components of the game without adding in the need to "grind for mats" that is often found in games of other genres. If I start in mystery lake now, I hear the nagging thoughts in the back of my head that I will eventually have to migrate to DP now and collect mats in the boat. There is nothing wrong with encouraging people to migrate between maps, but this is the WRONG motivator. It doesn't belong in this game.

This game always felt like you were one step ahead of starvation, and you had to keep moving to prevent from running out of supplies. This is what made it fun, and was the main motivator to move from place to place. It felt frantic and desperate. There was always a crafting system, but it was rudimentary and not enough to distract from the main purpose.

Now you have to camp out in Desolation Point and grind for materials in order to build stuff. There really isn't a choice in the matter for long term survival. Its a step towards a completely different experience, and loses sight of what made the game unique in the first place. It feels like a game mechanic that belongs in fallout 4's settlement building rather than the Long Dark.

If you want to make certain things harder to obtain, there are ways to increase scarcity without the implementation of grinding. Next thing you know we are going to have to gather planks and nails to build make-shift shelters. :roll:

[ThresholdSeven]

In response to the above post I would love to forge nails and make planks to make a shelter.

I understand some of the distaste for the forge because it is currently unrealistic and inconvenient, but it can be largely ignored. You really don't have to make a makeshift tool for thousands of days (speaking from experience because I'm on day 2500+ and still have a bunch of the original knives/hatchets and there are tons of whetstones)

You don't even have to make arrow heads as you can reuse the many (at least a dozen) arrow heads that are found around the map indefinitely as long as you don't lose them.

If you do find yourself in a situation where you need to make arrow heads it is hardly a grind. Dozens of arrow heads can be made without much trouble and if one finds it a pain to make one or two arrow heads at the forge I wonder how you have the patience to even play the game at all.

Regardless of the exchange of blows over whether the forge is awesome or not, it will almost surely be changed drastically over time as the game is ever evolving. I highly doubt this first iteration is what the devs mean to have in the final version. I can almost guarantee it is a basic placeholder for what will be a much more advanced system that may or may not cause more despair or greater rejoicing. In the mean time, those opposed to the forge can easily just ignore it. It isn't a necessity now and probably never will be except for emergencies and other mechanics that will probably all be for convenience. One can live indefinitely with only a few rabbit traps and a magnifying glass so you could say that everything else is for fun gameplay and/or convenience.

[iSUGGESTthings]

Should we ever get to the point where base/house/shelter/etc building is a thing, the forge would be good to craft necessary building materials.. iron fittings, nails, hinges, what-have-you.. But that's asking a looot and probably of little to no importance to the developers.

[Hesha]

Should we ever get to the point where base/house/shelter/etc building is a thing, the forge would be good to craft necessary building materials.. iron fittings, nails, hinges, what-have-you.. But that's asking a looot and probably of little to no importance to the developers.

Mhmm, that sounds a lot like that would be something you'd like. Seriously? Don't you think there are enough of those crafty-crafty faux survival games out there already? No sane survivor would seriously consider building some makeshift shelter in the middle of a northern winter when there are perfectly good houses less than a mile away in any direction...

[ThresholdSeven]

Should we ever get to the point where base/house/shelter/etc building is a thing, the forge would be good to craft necessary building materials.. iron fittings, nails, hinges, what-have-you.. But that's asking a looot and probably of little to no importance to the developers.

Mhmm, that sounds a lot like that would be something you'd like. Seriously? Don't you think there are enough of those crafty-crafty faux survival games out there already? No sane survivor would seriously consider building some makeshift shelter in the middle of a northern winter when there are perfectly good houses less than a mile away in any direction...

I agree that makeshift shelters in the middle of a northern winter when there are perfectly good houses less than a mile away in any direction is impractical. I also agree that this game should not turn into Rust or any of the many Minecraft clones (although I really enjoy some of them, TLD is still my favorite), but there are many times in the game when a quick makeshift lean to, temporary simple snow fort or pine bough shelter would come in extremely handy in many locations and would save many lives.

I didn't start playing until after the original makeshift show structure was taken out of the game, but it seems that structure was along the same lines as what I think would be a good implementation.

It is common survival practice to build a small wind break and covered shelter that is just large enough to squeeze into (and only takes minutes to prepare) to get out of the wind and increase temperature. It would be realistic and would fit the game mechanics. I'd like to know exactly how the snow shelter worked and why it was taken out of the game.

There are also many places in the game where a more permanent structure would be convenient to have as an extra place to stash emergency supplies and to get out of the wind. Many a travelers in game have found themselves lost or stuck in a blizzard and freezing to death on a trip that they have taken many times before. This happens most often to me in Pleasant Valley and it's obvious that Timberwolf Mountain could benefit from the implementation of player built structures since there is only one there and it blows.

[TWM]

I didn't start playing until after the original makeshift show structure was taken out of the game, but it seems that structure was along the same lines as what I think would be a good implementation.

As far as I recall, there never was a usable snow shelter. I remember an icon, but that was always as something that would be developed later in the game. I don't remember anyone ever using it.

A snow shelter would come useful in Not-so-Pleasant-Valley or Timberf*cked Mountain, but with snow storms announcing themselves beforehand and enough caves to shelter in, I think the idea is to force the player to plan ahead and make some choices: do I put in the extra miles and risk getting caught in a blizzard, or do I make a pitstop here, prepare a stack of firewood and sit it out?

The option of making a snow shelter seems to cancel that dilemma; you could simply venture on, if things get too dicey, you always have plan B. And either a snow shelter is more effective at keeping the cold out than waiting it out in a cave (in which case, caves become pretty much redundant) or it's a little less effective, in which case it would still spell hypothermia and death.

Also, I don't see why a snow shelter or lean-to would need items crafted at the forge. I watch a lot of survival types on youtube managing just fine with a tarp and a fair share of paracord. Or no tarp and natural materials plus paracord.

[Scyzara]

Every map contains at least 3 premade arrowheads as far as I can tell, sometimes even more. If you find the trip to DP too tiresome, you can simply ignore the option to forge your own arrowheads and use the premade ones instead.

Some arrows seem to spawn at fixed locations in every game, others can be found next to deer carcasses or human corpses*. I for one don't like the forge mechanics either (I'd be much more happy to run out of my limited resources at some point and die inevitably), but the argument about being forced to go to DP to forge arrowheads or tools isn't valid for at least 98% of the playerbase imho. Most people simply don't survive long enough (usually not even anywhere near long enough) to ever truely run out of premade items - if only they would find all of them, that is.

Unless you aim for a leaderboard run (in which case you'll want to visit DP sooner or later anyway), the overall amount of rifle rounds and premade arrowheads available is more than sufficient to get along for hundreds of days. The same is true for premade knives and hatchets. There are e.g. approximately at least 10 premade hatches as well as another 10-15 whetstones out there alltogether in every game (in Stalker mode, in Voyageur and Pilgrim it's even more!)

I assume the true problem is that most people don't find all of their premade items and thus have the impression to run out of premade tools while in fact half (or possibly even a much higher percentage) of their premade items are still lying around in some places that they simply haven't visited yet.

If you search everything thoroughly, all premade hatchets together will last several hundreds of days - even with the current extremely high degradation rates. Most players could thus (theoretically) be fine without ever forging anything, at least during the first 500-1500 days of their game. The exact numbers depend a whole lot on your playstyle ofc.

Only those very few players who really aim for a top rank on the leaderboards will truely have to enter DP and use the forge at some point.

And if you desperately want to forge your own arrowheads or tools for some reason, you can also start your game in DP and get the job done right away. DP is a nice and easy starting map with lots of shelter, two secure weapon spawn points (both bow and rifle) and pretty much hunting prey - even inexperienced players won't have a particularly hard time there. The Devs have removed the starting map limitations for some reason, I guess.

Maybe they should change the description of DP in the starting menu to suggest it as a starting map for those who want to use a bow later on. The current description doesn't really fit the map anyway imho.

*Some examples for arrow spawn points:

[spoil]PV: Archery stand near red barn + deer carcasses

ML: Carter Hydro Dam basement door

TWM: Crystal lake cabin + deer carcasses

DP: Katie's secluded corner + human corpse near the wolf den[/spoil]

[ThresholdSeven]

even on my 2500+ day run I would not have had to use the forge. I still have a crap load of regular knives, hatches and arrowheads left. I assume the ability to ignore the forge was implemented on purpose because it is the first iteration of a mechanic that is being tested. Whether or not the forge will always be able to be ignored in the future and what the forge will ultimately become is the question. Regardless of the fact that it can be ignored, the trip to DP is not that hard and either is gathering the materials for using the forge. I think all the hate is largely due to the difficulty of accepting change, especially when it is implemented in a state which is meant for testing and not final gameplay as so many players perceive that the game will always be as it is now and forget that it's in alpha.

If the forge was left like it is now, I think it would be pointless, impractical and unrealistic, but I understand it is a first iteration in a testing state and that it will most surely change in the future and I like the potential and even the current state is a fun change from the norm. The Devs want to see what we think about it, but simply hating it isn't helping anyone. If you hate it, why not give suggestions on how you would like to see it evolve?