More Crafting (Alternatives), Less Gamey Recipes

[Hesha]

Basically the title says it already, but I would like to elaborate. As it currently stands there are 14 crafting recipes and there are no alternatives to the ingredients whatsoever. There is a recipe for most clothing slots, except for Scarf, Mid Layer and Leggins, but for every slot there is only one option. It is not possible to craft pants using rabbit or wolf pelts, not possible to craft a rabbit coat, etc. This leads to situations where a characters last pair of pants get ruined and because he has only two deer hides at hand, he has to run around butt naked, despite the fact that he has 20 wolf pelts lying around.

Especially for arrows the recipe is artificially specific, as there are loads of materials (even implemented!) that one could craft arrow shafts from (Cat tail stalks, sticks/branches). Making arrow heads suitable for hunting (=unarmored targets) is also a very simple matter that doesn't require a forge. You can make arrow heads from cans for example.

I would therefore suggest to offer more alternative recipes for the existing items, specifically:

- Boots: Wolf (heavier, warmer, less durable)/Bear (heavier, warmer, more durable)

- Coats: Rabbit (lighter, less durable (maybe less warm)/Bear (heavier, warmer, more durable)

- Pants: Wolf (heavier, warmer, less durable)/Rabbit (lighter, warmer, less durable)

- Mitts: Deer (heavier, less warm, more durable)

- Arrow shafts: Cat tail stalks (less durable alternative to birch), Fir/Cedar Firewood (requires hatchet & knife)

- Arrow head: Scrap metal (requires tool box), Empty Can (new item, created when consuming canned food/drink without destroying the can (by opening it with a hatchet, requires tool box)

Additionally I would like to see following additional recipes:

- Hats: Bear (super warm, heavy, durable)/Wolf (warm, durable)/Rabbit (light, less durable)

- Survival Crossbow: Fir Firewood, 2x Scrap Metal, Cured Guts (requires tools)

- Crossbow arrow shafts: Fir/Cedar Firewood/Birch/Sticks(?) (requirements as above)

(- Crossbow bolts: Scrap metal (reduced range, requires no Arrow head, requires tool box)) not sure how alternative ammo could be loaded into the crossbow at the moment

Bottom line: I much prefer realistic challenges than arbitrary, artifical scarcity of materials that wouldn't naturally occur. In a survival situation substituting inferiour materials for the ideal solution is what happens all the time, I feel the game should reflect/allow this.

In addition to all I've said above, I think it would be cool if the recipe book was empty at the start and players had to possibility to unlock recipes by experimenting, i.e. combining items and seeing what happens. If it works, the recipe ends up in your book, if it doesn't the PC will comment in case the player tries the same combination again. If a combination is correct, but quantities are wrong the PC will suggest changes.

[Patrick Carlson]

Thanks for your detailed thoughts on the current crafting system, Hesha. Appreciate your thoughtfulness here.

--Patrick

[elloco999]

I agree completely. I'd also like to see crafting recipes for socks, long underwear and sweaters. And why not craft clothes using cloth? If you ruin your last in a wolf fight and you don't have any skins ready but you do have a lot of cloth (or can easily harvest some) you would use that, wouldn't you?

[druffzilla]

I agree completely. I'd also like to see crafting recipes for socks, long underwear and sweaters. And why not craft clothes using cloth? If you ruin your last in a wolf fight and you don't have any skins ready but you do have a lot of cloth (or can easily harvest some) you would use that, wouldn't you?

good point, but those things should have worse properties then the fabricated ones you can find.

If there gets more stuff added to the crafting menu it really has to be redone, clicking through it is already pretty annoying with the 15 things or how many there are, maybe have some chapter-thingys above for each type of craftables.

[Hesha]

One additional idea I've had over the last couple of days is to add another element to the "Action" menu of the various items called "Enhance" or "Customise". Uses I could imagine at the moment would be to add fur/pelts/hides/cloth to existing pieces of clothing, making them warmer, more durable and heavier. I think carrying capacity is a key resource in-game, therefore offering a possibility to make clothing better at the cost of it getting heavier is a meaningful decision.

Of course this has to do with item decay as well which, if you ask me, is COMPLETELY out of hand at the moment. I spent a few hours walking through a blizzard and my Wolf Coat, Deer Pants and Boots degraded from 100% to 89%. That is just ridiculous. There is really no need for this crazy amount of item degradation.

[Foxen]

Hmmm...could that be a reason?

[Hesha]

Good on you, lad. But I really (really) don't see how your picture has anything to do with the issue I have raised. How does the fact that you have managed to stockpile 7 pairs of boots and 6 pairs of pants help the issue that a brand new set of clothes degrades to rags within two weeks. It just isn't realistic and realism is the only thing I care about. Getting tons of boots/pants isn't really that impressive if you're willing to spent (waste?) as much time on it as you obviously have done. It doesn't take that long to figure out that the best way to hunt is to take off all your clothes and rush a wolf eating a deer/rabbit. That way you get two carcasses and the only thing you lose is condition, which is the most readily available resource in the game. The only thing you can wantonly waste without consequences (a huge design flaw, if you ask me).

The fact that you can grind your way to perpetual survival in TLD as it is now, doesn't mean that it is perfect. There are a lot of arbitrary, artificial limitations and gamey challenges probably designed to speed-up the game or make it more challenging. But to me those are lazy, cheap solutions to a problem that could be remedied in a much, much more rewarding way: By adding more content.

Sure, a small map plus massively increased time lapse makes it seem like a much bigger map. Sure, tools turning to dust after being used 20 times make it more of a challenge to survive. But I would much rather have a bigger (randomly generated?) map at normal, real-time speed and I would much prefer real challenges.

At the moment, the hunger/decay system is about as random, as a park ranger turning up in the Camp Office when you sleep, eating all your supplies, tearing up your stuff and kicking you in the goonies before running into the night laughing. And the only way to answer to a game gaming you is gaming the game back. And at least to me that just isn't fun. But maybe we should get back to topic.

[Foxen]

Why are you that pi**ed?

Well, ok then I'll explain it seriously:

Because there is no need to let the clothing stay in shape for decades...there's more than enough stuff around to repair and/or craft something new!

And as we're right at this point:

There's also no need to let your Char starve or suffer from Dehydration if you do something instead of just trying to get as much time 'killed' as possible.

I don't get either that so many Player run around, injured and/or with low Percentage because of starving/dehydration and then complain when they get killed by just one Wolf because of the low Percentage.

There's plenty of Stuff around...just go and get it...let your Char do something

As I said, that's after 300 days in Stalker Mode...and my Char has never ever suffered from starvation or dehydration.

And that's the Point of all this:

In the Game (remember: no RL-Simulator ) as it is now, there's far to many of everything...if one goes and gets it.

No need to let esp. Clothing behave like in RL...why should it?

Btw.:

Didn't you count the Wolfskin Coats?

I could sell you some... :lol: :lol: :lol:

And for the case, you missed it ...again...:

JUST KIDDING!!!!

[Hesha]

I wasn't angry, sorry if it came across like that.

Sure this is a game. If one was to define it any more, it would be a survival sim. No other genre fits as well as that. I know, you don't care for realism, as you have explained in another thread, but I would venture a guess that your opinion is not shared by a majority of players. I would think that most people are only interested in a game like this because it is the best simulation of a real-life survival situation on the market at the moment. If there is a better (i.e. more realistic) one, I'd probably migrate to that one.

And no, you are not "just kidding". Of course you are making your point with tongue in cheek, but still you oppose my demand for more realism (which is absolutely fine). What we want from this game is fundamentally different. You want to "run around and do stuff", I want to survive by doing as little as (realistically) possible - just like someone in a real survival situation would. I am not interested in being artificially entertained by this "game". If survival under realistic conditions isn't entertaining enough, I can go and play DayZ or something like that.

I hope you know what I mean. I understand your position, but I don't share it. In any game, if there is a decision to be made between realism and balancing, accessability, etc. I want the decision to go towards realism. And in a survival game, realism is the only quality criterion to me.

[Foxen]

Sry to tell you, but you're totally wrong with your opinion regarding my wishes or what I want.

Frankly...what makes you think, you'd know what I care for and what not...you don't know anything about me.

I for one am as interested in realism as you are...and for your knowlegde:

I did point out that many things shouldn't decay at this rate we have now...more than ones...if you had used the Search-Button, you'd probably know that

I'm totally with you on the Decay-Point and on the 'more crafting abilities-Point, too.

But you seem to don't understand that fact...because that was the reason, I wrote 'just kidding'...and that was meant as it was written...how do you know better than me what I meant?

One can take all these Game-'settings' far to serious...and overdo so much things.

If you'd make everything in the game like in RL, there would be much less Fun playing it, or would you think it's possible for anybody to wander around in 20°C for that long...in the starting Clothings...without getting freezed?

Or being able to survive any serious Attack from a Wolf in this Environment...with that gear you have at the Beginning?

Being able to cure wounds/injuries/poinsoning withing minutes/hours?

That's only possible because of the fact that it's a game.

And that's all I want the Players to remember...after all it's a Game.

You should read some of my older Posts before you judge me like you do now...sadly I've made the same mistake like you do with somebody in this Forum ones...

And again:

I'm totally with you on these decay- and crafting- issues...no need to think that I wouldn't care

[Hesha]

Sry to tell you, but you're totally wrong with your opinion regarding my wishes or what I want.

Frankly...what makes you think, you'd know what I care for and what not...you don't know anything about me.

My apologies. I only went by what you said in the couple of threads that I have read. It wasn't clear (to me at least) that you were playing devil's advocate rather than arguing your own opinion - which, in my opinion, isn't a very constructive way to argue online But now I got it, so np

I'm totally with you on the Decay-Point and on the 'more crafting abilities-Point, too.

Glad to hear that, I like you a lot more now :-)

But you seem to don't understand that fact...because that was the reason, I wrote 'just kidding'...and that was meant as it was written...how do you know better than me what I meant?

That is clear now, wasn't clear at the time of reading, sorry. It's probably because you're not a native speaker, I missed the subtleties of your irony. So again, I'm sorry for our misunderstanding!

One can take all these Game-'settings' far to serious...and overdo so much things.

Certainly, I will have a look at the examples you bring up and see how I feel about those.

If you'd make everything in the game like in RL, there would be much less Fun playing it, or would you think it's possible for anybody to wander around in 20°C for that long...in the starting Clothings...without getting freezed?

I assume you mean -20°C. Depending on Wind Chill you would last 30min or more before getting frostbite, longer for Hypothermia. If the time in-game wasn't sped up as it is, that would be easily enough to make it to one of the cabins/huts in ML, no matter where you start off. Once you are indoors, there is no longer any wind chill and you could (realistically) tear up the furniture, beds, pillows, etc. to reinforce your clothes with minimal effort. Even just grabbing duvets and blankets from a cabin and wrapping them around you will make you last a lot longer and allow for enough time to find better stuff.

Or being able to survive any serious Attack from a Wolf in this Environment...with that gear you have at the Beginning?

Where do I begin? Firstly, wolves are very unlikely to attack humans to start with. Almost all non-rabid Wolf attacks on humans are against females or children. Secondly, I'd say a bush pilot travelling in the northern Canadian wilderness wouldn't travel completely unarmed, just in case. Thirdly, the game allows you to fend off a wolf attack with just a knife, causing minimal damage to yourself (usually around-17% for me) - there is no progression: If you have a knife, you can beat the wolves. I haven't fought wolves in real life, so I have no idea how hard they are to fight. But then again, one is usually armed in-game and there are ways to scare off wolves as well. I really wouldn't mind if wolf attacks were a lot more dangerous, but rarer at the same time.

Being able to cure wounds/injuries/poinsoning withing minutes/hours?

Some afflictions have relatively quick fixes, others don't. I wouldn't mind if a broken bone took a few weeks to heal. If other time-related factors in the game were tuned down to realistic levels (hunger, time lapse, item decay), I wouldn't mind waiting for my injuries to heal. Then again, most afflictions I have incurred so far were not realistic to start with. You basically get food poisoning every single time you eat raw meat, for example. You also sprain ankles and wrists a lot, just from walking/running around.

I would like if the "Condition" mechanism was heavily reworked, because at the moment it is just one huge exploit to use one's condition as a free resource.

That's only possible because of the fact that it's a game.

And that's all I want the Players to remember...after all it's a Game.

You should read some of my older Posts before you judge me like you do now...sadly I've made the same mistake like you do with somebody in this Forum ones...

And again:

I'm totally with you on these decay- and crafting- issues...no need to think that I wouldn't care

Sorry again, but reading older posts in a game that is being developed as quickly as this one can be quite pointless. The same goes for the two wikis. And after all, it didn't take long at all to figure out what you meant to say :-)

Based on previous experience with other game developers, I expect 90% of our feedback to go unheard, because it is too expensive to implement, "doesn't represent a majority opinion" or doesn't agree with the design goals for the game. Therefore I just hope that the game will be easily moddable.

To add one more thing to my list: I would like if the world was more interactive. It should be possible to harvest wood from buildings or the wooden piers in ML. Would be pretty cool to see the change in scenery once you've started burning all the buildings around you.

[Foxen]

Don't worry, there's no need for Apologies; I'm glad to hear you understood my Point now

Sure, minus 20 Degrees was what I meant, just forgot to press that cute little bar...that makes such a huge Difference, sry!

And you're right...sometimes I might sound a bit harsh...but I can assure you, I'm not as mean as I may seem to be.

That may be because my english is from......ähem.....many Years ago.... ...and I hate to look up the BS that Goo...thing-Translator spits out...because most of it is not only wrong, but absolutely useless...

Therefor I'm relying on the stuff I've learned decades ago Sry if it's not 'the best' type of expression but I have nothing else to communicate with...unless we try it in german :lol:

But btt:

I'd love to have much more things to craft...if they make sense to the game in the way it's meant to be played now, but I (on the other hand) think that there're too many things that could fit into the game, but...how do I explain that...don't 'belong' into it...in lack of a better term :?

I'd enjoy having the ability to fix all the stuff we can use with other things that are not supposed to fix that kind of stuff...yet.

Cloth is much more of use as it is right now.

Toasters only give Srcapmetal...but there should also be (at least) wire harvestable of them.

Traps could be made out of wire...repairings...it could be used to drag something...or hang up carcasses for harvesting.

There's so much more that has already been pointed out by many other Players that could fit into the game...and would make sense in some way.

But I question myself at any one of these 'possible new Items/abilities':

Would it make the game more fun to play?

Where do we draw the line between 'nice to have' and 'needs to be there to make the game more fun to play'?

Some things do need 'tweaking' in a long run...but there're many things that work as they're now.

For example the tree difficulties...

I think it's much easier to maintain food as a stalker than it is as a pilgrim.

You're atacked by Wolfes much more often as a Stalker or Voyageur than you're as a Pilgrim...and they're faily easy to fight back...therefor you have to fight them much more often...and if you do, you'll have plenty of food all the time.

As a Pilgrim you have to hunt them...because you scare them off every time they see you.

And that's the next thing (you pointed out by yourself as well as others did): the behavior of wolfes.

I can't tell for sure about wolfes, but I've trained dogs for security-issues as well as for hunting and I can assure you: IF they atack to hurt (or even kill) you, they do it such that you'll have no chance to fighting them back...unless you're armed and fairly quick reacting.

Regarding that experience I'd imagine a Wolf that atacks (for whatever reason...) to kill you, would easily be able to do so...esp. in the environment we have in the game where you have more to fight against than only the animals

Something I really don't care much about is the question if it's 'easy to code/implement' into the game..or not.

It just has to make (at least me) want to play more...because 'it fits exactly' into the game...but it doesn't have to necessarily be 'like in RL' to do so

[Hesha]

I guess it is about immersion for me. I hate to be in a situation in-game that just simply wouldn't happen in reality. Like being in a Cabin with four bunk beds and no way to get any Cloth. Or being in a forest without any wood in sight. Or sitting there with 50 wolf skins and nothing I can do with them. So in my book, the more different items they add, the more recipes for crafting they add, the more fun I will have. I would also love randomly located "premium" loot, like a scoped rifle or something like that. Different types of guns with different calibers would also be fun. Or the ability to harvest bullets for a sure-fire firestarter, etc. the is so much one could do, the more the better. But you are right: There are nice to haves and must haves and they should definitely focus on the latter.

In a larger scale (hey, they could run another kickstarter for a DLC...) it would be amazing if the game included a cycle of seasons, etc.

[Foxen]

...Or sitting there with 50 wolf skins and nothing I can do with them...

That's one point why I've crafted that many Clothing...and to 'get rid' of all the meat that was gathered during Wolf-Fights

...it would be amazing if the game included a cycle of seasons, etc.

Maybe...

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=9175#p51918

[Amazombie]

I agree with the OP. its not that they need to last forever, but more options makes sense. Why would I risk going after a wolf, when some rabbit skin pants would keep me warm enough for a short trip out to check my rabbit snares?

In addition to this. I'd love to see more crafting in general.

Branches and such for short term shelter

A craftable smoker, to make meat last longer

Even at some point a way to craft your own cabin, would be amazing.