Perseverance Mills?

[survivor123]

Do you think we will get to explore Perseverance Mills in Wintermute chapter 5. If we do, I wonder if it will get added to survival also.

[ThePancakeLady]

It was Astrid's intended destination with the hard case, so it would be a bit weird if Astrid and Will never get there. So I think it's quite likely that PM will be created for Episode 5. And if HL is creating a whole new region and fully fleshed out map for the final Episode, it seems likely that it will be added to Survival Mode after Episode 5 releases. There would be huge backlash from the playerbase if it wasn't, and if the Steam forums are any indication, players who have never played Wintermute at all or claim to never want to play it would be likely to join in just because "Everyone bash Hinterland!" seem to be the "kewl" thing to do on Steam right now. 

Sp, yes, I think PM will be the main setting for Episode 5, and I think it will be added to Survival Mode after Episode 5 releases. Just guessing, but that's my gut feeling.

To be honest, I am more interested in whether Astrid and Will repair their relationship by the end of the Episode and end up sailing off together as a couple, or if they end up parting ways forever- literally or figuratively.

[mintietcatm]

1 hour ago, ThePancakeLady said:

To be honest, I am more interested in whether Astrid and Will repair their relationship by the end of the Episode and end up sailing off together as a couple, or if they end up parting ways forever- literally or figuratively.

As much as i love them I really hope they dont end up together, a relationship wouldnt work between them again. They should definetly be close again tho, but as pals 

[Veskaida]

5 hours ago, survivor123 said:

Do you think we will get to explore Perseverance Mills in Wintermute chapter 5. If we do, I wonder if it will get added to survival also.

Yes. I would be very surprised if Perseverance Mills was not the setting for Episode 5, though it might not be the name/setting for the entire region: e.g. like Thomson's Crossing isn't the name for "Pleasant Valley", but it could follow the structure of Mountain Town/Milton.

I'd also be quite surprised/dissapointed if we didn't get to play in the Episode 5 region in Survival Sandbox. That has been the trend for the last decade to more-or-less share regions across most game modes.

1 hour ago, mintietcatm said:

As much as i love them I really hope they dont end up together

Hope they end up together, that'd be cute! I hope they SMOOCH ❄️ 👩‍❤️‍💋‍👨🍁But we don't know much about their relationship, why they broke up, etc. and that doesn't seem to be a focus of TLD's story.

 

Spoilers for WINTERMUTE and TALES, but I've made a thread here which includes all the information I could find with connections between the two game modes, as well as some conclusions/speculation about what will be present in Episode 5 of WINTERMUTE.

[Leeanda]

Spoiler

Astrid was already there at the end of episode 4,

 

Edited July 4 by Leeanda

[Mroz4k]

2 hours ago, Veskaida said:

Hope they end up together, that'd be cute! I hope they SMOOCH ❄️ 👩‍❤️‍💋‍👨🍁But we don't know much about their relationship, why they broke up, etc. and that doesn't seem to be a focus of TLD's story.

If you are willing to dig suuuuper deep into past on the internet, there was an official interview with Raphael that revealed a lot of their shared past, I believe it was sometime back in 2014-2016, back when ep. 1 was in development. And that "history" still fits perfectly to their interactions in the game so I am positive it is still cannon.

@Leeanda spoiler tagging that might be a good idea

On the topic:

Spoiler

I fully expect it to be a playable idea at some point. But if its part of episode 5, I dont know... It depends. If Episode 5 is Will episode, I would expect him to aim for the other goal (Suzuki) hinted at ep. 4. But, if that is same general location like PV, i dont know. Does not seem like it. But, if its Astrid episode, than yea, we will see Perseverance mills. What is most likely is that ep. 5 will feature both Will and Astrid in parts and we will likely see perseverance from Astrids perspective at least.

________

If people are curious, I will try to dust off cobwebs and try to find link to the old interview

Edited July 4 by Mroz4k
Also put in a spoler

[Leeanda]

@Mroz4k  thank you.. I'm half asleep today...  Edited 😊

[Veskaida]

51 minutes ago, Mroz4k said:

If you are willing to dig suuuuper deep into past on the internet, there was an official interview with Raphael that revealed a lot of their shared past, I believe it was sometime back in 2014-2016, back when ep. 1 was in development. And that "history" still fits perfectly to their interactions in the game so I am positive it is still cannon.

If people are curious, I will try to dust off cobwebs and try to find link to the old interview

I'd be really curious to watch this, even if it was non-canon predux lore! 😭 Do you know the platform or who/what organization interviewed Raph for this info?

55 minutes ago, Mroz4k said:

On the topic:

  Hide contents

I fully expect it to be a playable idea at some point. But if its part of episode 5, I dont know... It depends. If Episode 5 is Will episode, I would expect him to aim for the other goal (Suzuki) hinted at ep. 4. But, if that is same general location like PV, i dont know. Does not seem like it. But, if its Astrid episode, than yea, we will see Perseverance mills. What is most likely is that ep. 5 will feature both Will and Astrid in parts and we will likely see perseverance from Astrids perspective at least.

 

I agree! This location is all but confirmed for a major area/region in Episode 5, though like Perserverence Mills, I can see it both being a specific location and/or a generalized name for the whole region, like how "Blackrock" is. Unless there's some big lore development why we 'wouldn't' go there, and given how much emphasis it put on it in Episode 4, I don't see it 'not' being in Ep5 without a major retcon. Don't know of it'll be in the same region as Perseverance Mills, but it'd make a lot of sense.

[ElSuperGecko]

My question is... is Perseverance Mills the same place as Port Mary? 

[Mroz4k]

3 hours ago, Veskaida said:

I'd be really curious to watch this, even if it was non-canon predux lore! 😭 Do you know the platform or who/what organization interviewed Raph for this info?

I wish! I spent like two hours looking for it today. All I can tell at this point that it was a article interview somewhere between 2012 and 2015, during which the interviewer asked  Raphael a few questions to introduce the protagonists of the planned story mode and he described Will and Astrid and their shared past before the events of the game. 

Trouble is he gave many such interviews and it was almost decade ago so its real hard to find

I can give some points that I somewhat remember, but its possible I am mistaken - if anyone of the long timers remembers it and wants to link it or correct me, feel free to do so:

Again, this is in broadstrokes how I remember it:

Spoiler

Will was a son of a bush pilot, who struggled with alcoholism. The plane in game is an old plane of his father that Will uses after he took over for his father. At some point in his adult life he met Astrid when she was a doctor, working at a med centre. They got married and had a child, I believe a son. But, due to a tragic accident their child passed away, which created a rift between them: Astrid became more bitter and driven by her work, and Will became alcoholic, much like his father. At some point, they separated - Astrid left and Will continued to drown himself in alcohol as he flew his fathers old plane.

Thats moreless how I remember it. It still perfectly fits the storymode - the conversation they had in the plane, what Will said when talking with Gray Mother... So cannon or not, it fits well enough.

If I come across the newspage, I will link it.

I came across an old wiki fandom page for Will, which I am fairly certain is non cannon fanfic, written by some fan to try and push it as official backstory, but is inspired by the real backstory, it was on the "secondary" TLD fandom wiki that has been long defunct compared to the current one. Might be interesting to read anyway:

https://thelongdark-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Will_Mackenzie

 

 

1 hour ago, ElSuperGecko said:

My question is... is Perseverance Mills the same place as Port Mary? 

Not Canadian so I could be entirely wrong, but I dont think so - though it could be inspired by it.

I think Raphael mentioned that the idea of Great Bear was to a point inspired by Vancouver island.

[Veskaida]

10 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

I wish! I spent like two hours looking for it today... Trouble is he gave many such interviews and it was almost decade ago so its real hard to find

Very interesting! I hope this is someday found, or Raph or another Hinterlands employee gives clarification on this in the future. Otherwise, it seems that this has faded into The Long Dark...

 

10 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Again, this is in broadstrokes how I remember it:

Raph made a post here on the Hinterlands forums recently about this very topic, where he said this (Will Mackenzie Fandom Wiki Article) is "(mostly) accurate)" and that he "would consider this background to be canonical".

 

11 hours ago, ElSuperGecko said:

My question is... is Perseverance Mills the same place as Port Mary? 

10 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Not Canadian so I could be entirely wrong, but I dont think so - though it could be inspired by it.

I think Raphael mentioned that the idea of Great Bear was to a point inspired by Vancouver island.

Yes, this has been a regular point of discussion, similar to "where Perseverance Mills is located on GBI", or where "GBI is located". I don't think Port Mary is Perseverance Mills, though these are possibilities:

Perseverance Mills or Port Mary (or neither)

• Could be non-canon (e.g. pre-redux) and no longer exist.
• Region name: e.g. as "Mountain Town" is to "Milton"
• Location name: within a region, e.g. as "Thomson's Crossing" is to "Pleasant Valley"
• Point-Of-Interest name: within a location, e.g. as "The Quonset" is to "Coastal Townsite" is to "Coastal Highway".

Far as I'm aware "Port Mary" does not have any post-redux references so it may no longer exist in canon. Future patches to TLD namely "Episode 5 - The Light at the End of All Things" should confirm if it exists (or throw increasing doubt on it's continued canonicity).

Yes, I also think I remember reading the same/similar comment from Raph about Vancouver Island as inspiration GBI/The Long Dark. Though it is also important to note that "Vancouver" still exists in The Long Dark canonically based on the description from the Cowichan Sweater item which reads: "...on Vancouver Island, Canada". All we know geographically about GBI is that it is "in the Pacific North-West", is owned by Canada, and is <66° Latitude (since above that would be permafrost. Given the lack of permafrost, glacial caves, and ecosystems present in-game: mostly alpine and coniferous forests with fir, cedar, birch and maple, and the wildlife present: I believe TLD's canon Latitude is between 45-66°.

Edited July 5 by Veskaida

[Raphael van Lierop]

Oh boy -- there's a lot in this thread. I will answer a few things.

* GBI is a fictional place, inspired by Vancouver Island (where I live). Other actual places in the real world are mentioned (such as Vancouver, "the mainland", etc.).

* Perseverance Mills will be in Episode Five; I don't think this is a spoiler since as others have mentioned

Spoiler

Astrid ends up here at the end of Episode Three

(and if that's a spoiler for you, why haven't you played it yet?) 😅

* Despite the fact that some people might be upset and rail against us, I'm not promising to put the Wintermute regions into Survival. Yes, we have always done that historically but this is the last episode in the story and these are very important locations that may be too important to put into Survival mode. Putting that here as a "warning" to anyone who wants to get upset about it. May as well get upset about it now. I'm not saying they won't be added to Survival, but I'm not saying they will either. I haven't decided yet. Don't think that because I pulled the Cougar due to player upset that I'm now going to just do whatever the loudest complainers want.

* Port Mary and Perseverance Mills are not the same place.

* That old Mackenzie backstory on the Wiki is what I provided during our Kickstarter campaign back in 2013. That was my planned backstory for Mackenzie back then. It changed as I wrote more of Wintermute. The canonical background for Mackenzie is the Astrid + Mackenzie story that we hint at in the opening of Episode One, "Do Not Go Gentle". But that backstory on the wiki is not someone's "fanfic" -- well ok maybe it's my fanfic. 😂

 

So to be 100% clear because it's a bit confusing:

* This wiki page for Mackenzie is correct and I would consider it canonical: https://thelongdark.fandom.com/wiki/Will_Mackenzie

* This wiki page for Mackenzie is based on old info and is no longer canonical: https://thelongdark-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Will_Mackenzie

(The only thing I'd keep from that second link is the place of birth: Black Creek, BC, which has particular meaning for me.)

 

Hope that helps clear some things up! Thanks for being curious about this stuff.

 

[Veskaida]

Thank you so much for the post and providing this information! Very excited for Episode 5 and Part 6 of TFTFT! ❤️Love you guys!

[UTC-10]

Spoiler

Astrid ended up in Perseverance Mills at the end of Episode 4 as an epilog (a long boat ride) to the episode.  There would have been no point to the Episode 4 epilog if she had emerged at the end of Episode 3 in Perseverance Mills.  This, of course assumes that there was not a discontinuity being inserted here as we know where she nominally should  have come out of the mine or something else happened which necessitated the boat ride.  

I would hope that Perseverance Mills does make it into the survival map.  I had intended for my survival game to reach the end region of story mode/Wintermute and I would be rather disappointed if it couldn't.  

[mintietcatm]

3 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

Hope that helps clear some things up! Thanks for being curious about this stuff.

 

I would love to know more about Astrid! If you have any misc info about her do share (if you can of course lol, shes just my favorite)

[Mroz4k]

Thanks a lot for all those clarifications, I am glad I dont need to go digging deep in the decade old articles anymore, as I was curious about it

And I apologize for causing a lot of that confusion as for a long time, many of these things were just scraps of information patched together into hypotheses - but knowing the truth behind is very interesting, and it can provide a lot of insight to us "lore nerds" to be able to compare the old planned story, with the story of pre-redux and the current one, and compare the evolution.  

And sorry it was such a long read! I love the rich history and lore of the game, and promise to stick my nose even deeper into its depths so the more indepth you make it, the better - thanks!
(I cant believe I forgot about Kickstarter info itself... what a rookie mistake by me...  I even got many hints, skimming through those articles)

3 hours ago, mintietcatm said:

I would love to know more about Astrid! If you have any misc info about her do share (if you can of course lol, shes just my favorite)

Not sure if it has anything new you did not know, but if Will´s page is correct and can be considered cannon, it is pretty safe that Astrid´s page is, too. In any case, the current fandom page is well maintained so at least it will have all the game information neatly organized! Might find more of the "older" stuff on the Kickstarter page, though fair warning - there is a lot to go through, and some of that content is available only to backers.

6 hours ago, UTC-10 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Astrid ended up in Perseverance Mills at the end of Episode 4 as an epilog (a long boat ride) to the episode.  There would have been no point to the Episode 4 epilog if she had emerged at the end of Episode 3 in Perseverance Mills.  This, of course assumes that there was not a discontinuity being inserted here as we know where she nominally should  have come out of the mine or something else happened which necessitated the boat ride.  

I would hope that Perseverance Mills does make it into the survival map.  I had intended for my survival game to reach the end region of story mode/Wintermute and I would be rather disappointed if it couldn't.  

Even if it weren´t (and I can appreciate why, as it might be too unbalanced for survival map, and it is nice to see at least some Storymode-exclusive content) in the end, mods would be made that would add it for survival. But the outcry from the rabid non-forum community would be huge. What I think is most likely to happen, in my opinion, is that we would eventually get the region for survival, but after some re-moddeling to make it fair for survival. But those are all just my own speculations, of course.

20 hours ago, ElSuperGecko said:

My question is... is Perseverance Mills the same place as Port Mary? 

I feel extra silly now for not having recongnized you meant Port Mary as a reference from Milton lore, and not referencing a canadian town with similar name that is in Newfoundland  bone-head move by me!

But to give my opinion if Perseverance Mills is the same place as Port Mary, I dont believe so. 

9 hours ago, Veskaida said:

Yes, this has been a regular point of discussion, similar to "where Perseverance Mills is located on GBI", or where "GBI is located". I don't think Port Mary is Perseverance Mills, though these are possibilities:

Perseverance Mills or Port Mary (or neither)

I will follow up on @Veskaida post, which has neat theories, and give my own, too. 
First, I dont believe it to be non-cannon pre-Redux information - if it were, it would have been removed / updated.
The Milton lore clue can help us narrow it down, if you consider the current known map of TLD (I used the non-Tales map and without Blackrock, but adding those would not disprove it)

Quote

The location of the town, halfway between Port Mary and the mountains in the interior of Great Bear

First, by the information, we do not know if Port Mary even exists anymore. But at the very least we can extrapolate potential locations. 
Looking at the map, and remembering the zone descriptions of places like Ash canyon or Hushed river valley, we know these places to be considered interior, remote wilderness. Its also mountaneous regions. Then, consider location of the "Mountain town", Milton. It is said to be a half-way stopping point between Port Mary and the interior, mountaineous region.

By that logic, I can see 2 possible locations:
Theory 1: Port Mary is a name for Coastal town, and might possibly include Bleak inlet and Hibernia proccessing facilities, as well, depending on how fast would it be to travel by car between those regions. Consider Coastal town on its own - while there is no clear "harbour" there, it features many bundled logs that are clearly meant to be collected by a ship and transported onto a land. Cannery and the proccessing facilities may have been a part of it in the past, before the quakes, too, as it was clearly all connected via coastal road and would not be far at all by car.

Theory 2: Port Mary is south of the Far territory region, and is probably located on the coast west from Bleak Inlet, in a currently unavailable area. This would put Milton somewhere along "halfway" between this port and the interior mountaineous region of the island.

Both theories would imply that Perseverance mills is not Port Mary. 
If still not convinced, consider the following: 
Port Mary would likely be on the side that is "closer to mainland", for ease of connection.
Wills plane crashed in area of Milton, and would be flying from Mainland towards Perseverance Mills.
After the crash, consider the path protagonists took - from Milton towards Pleasant Valley - it is very likely that their goal was somewhere east of Desolation point, given that both of them have been traveling in that direction, and it also appears that their plane path was traveling from west towards east of the island.
Consider the path of the prison bus to Blackrock - it would presumably be transporting prisoners from an airfield/harbour towards the prison when it crashed, the path seems to go east, where Blackrock is located on map.

So it is very likely that Perseverance mills location would be somewhere east of Milton. Considering what we know of Port Mary, this would not make Milton a halfway stop between Port Mary and interior mountains.

This was fun trying to deduce
 

Edited July 5 by Mroz4k
typoos :)

[thekillergreece]

Wait, Port May?
So, we'll have two regions soon?

Either way, the introduction of Blackrock (then-Wintermute exclusive) to Survival mode few months after Episode 4's release was a good idea. I also liked how different the prison was left in devastated state. Though I hoped towers and infirmary were accessible.

I hope Mills will appear in survival mode soon.

[ElSuperGecko]

3 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

TBut to give my opinion if Perseverance Mills is the same place as Port Mary, I dont believe so...

Thankfully that appears to have been confirmed now (see above) .  But a great read nonetheless! 

So we're definitely going to see Perseverance Mills in ep.5, but maybe not in Survival.  No confirmation if we'll see Port Mary at all or where it fits into GBI's geography at the moment, but whether we ever get to visit it or not, hope we at least learn a little bit more about it before all's said and done.  I really enjoy the history of GBI and seeing how all the regions, communities and backstory connects together.

[thekillergreece]

I believe we may get some changes in...

Spoiler

coastal highway

... considering how THAT episode ended.

[Raphael van Lierop]

15 hours ago, UTC-10 said:

  Hide contents

Astrid ended up in Perseverance Mills at the end of Episode 4 as an epilog (a long boat ride) to the episode.  There would have been no point to the Episode 4 epilog if she had emerged at the end of Episode 3 in Perseverance Mills.  This, of course assumes that there was not a discontinuity being inserted here as we know where she nominally should  have come out of the mine or something else happened which necessitated the boat ride.  

I would hope that Perseverance Mills does make it into the survival map.  I had intended for my survival game to reach the end region of story mode/Wintermute and I would be rather disappointed if it couldn't.  

Well, it's a good thing you know it might not so you can get this disappointment out of your system ahead of time, and focus on what we did give you instead of what we didn't.

[Raphael van Lierop]

13 hours ago, mintietcatm said:

I would love to know more about Astrid! If you have any misc info about her do share (if you can of course lol, shes just my favorite)

I think you'll learn more about her in Ep5.

[Raphael van Lierop]

Port Mary is a red herring here. Nobody should read any of this and think that there will be a region with Port Mary in Episode Five. Please try not to jump to conclusions, and be careful not to spread rumours, because they have a funny way of becoming "truth" that we just have to spend a lot of energy dealing with later. "But why isn't Port Mary in the game? Hinterland are lazy cheapskates! They promised it!" etc etc.

Quote

Even if it weren´t (and I can appreciate why, as it might be too unbalanced for survival map, and it is nice to see at least some Storymode-exclusive content) in the end, mods would be made that would add it for survival. 

This is kind of infuriating to read. If we don't want the regions in Survival, we don't want them in Survival. It's not up to modders to work around our intentions for the game and world. It's disrespectful to our vision and the experience we are crafting with TLD.

[Veskaida]

7 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

I think you'll learn more about her in Ep5.

Is Survival mode canon, or are only WINTERMUTE and TALES but not Survival as a whole? Are we actually playing as Will/Astrid in Survival (or is this a gameplay limitation), so canonically Will/Astrid might not travel to TFT or complete TALES?

 

The in-game description for Survival reads:

• "The non-narrative exploration-survival experience where day-to-day survival is the only objective, and death the only ending. Play your own story."

The description of TALES ( https://www.thelongdark.com/expansion/ ) reads:

• "Story within Survival. Instead of Challenges, TALES FROM THE FAR TERRITORY will include three narrative-driven Tales, stories of the territory's mysterious past, each with narrative-focused gameplay objectives that help build up the story of Great Bear Island, and connect back to the WINTERMUTE storyline which culminates in Episode Five."

Edited July 6 by Veskaida

[mintietcatm]

8 hours ago, Raphael van Lierop said:

I think you'll learn more about her in Ep5.

okay NOW IM SO EXCITED 

[Raphael van Lierop]

14 hours ago, Veskaida said:

Is Survival mode canon, or are only WINTERMUTE and TALES but not Survival as a whole? Are we actually playing as Will/Astrid in Survival (or is this a gameplay limitation), so canonically Will/Astrid might not travel to TFT or complete TALES?

 

The in-game description for Survival reads:

• "The non-narrative exploration-survival experience where day-to-day survival is the only objective, and death the only ending. Play your own story."

The description of TALES ( https://www.thelongdark.com/expansion/ ) reads:

• "Story within Survival. Instead of Challenges, TALES FROM THE FAR TERRITORY will include three narrative-driven Tales, stories of the territory's mysterious past, each with narrative-focused gameplay objectives that help build up the story of Great Bear Island, and connect back to the WINTERMUTE storyline which culminates in Episode Five."

Mackenzie and Astrid are characters in WINTERMUTE.

In Survival/TALEs, you are playing your own Survivor.