Do Astrid and Will have a child? If so, what happened to it?

[Sasharr]

It's been unclear to me for a while now--in the opening sequence of EP 1,  as Will and Astrid talk about the past, Will says "I miss him too." In another episode I cannot remember for the life of me, she is on the phone in her office, and she looks at a photo of her and Will that seems to have a child in the foreground. I apologize for the lack of references--the youtube link uploads are hellish on this site. The first reference is in the beginning of episode 1, and I can't find the second ref anywhere.

DO they have a kid? And if so, what happened to him?

Theories and further references appreciated!

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Sasharr
tags needed

[LunarLime]

It does seem likely that yes they did have a child, although they almost certainly died.

I remember in the pre-redux version of Episode 1 of Wintermute, Grey Mother talks about the loss of her daughter Lily, who died in some climbing accident. When Grey Mother says this, Will responds with something like "Losing a child.. It's like..." But before he can finish Grey Mother say's "It's like losing your own life" (or something like that). Will's line certainly seems like he knows what it's like to lose a child. Unfortunately I don't really remember how the scene goes in the newer redux version of episode 1. For some reason I remember pre-redux cutscenes much better that redux ones.

The death of Will's and Astrid's child is likely what caused their divorce, which is pretty common. Also, their child's death may have caused Will to develop a drinking problem, as Astrid does mention it on he flight to Great Bear, but Will reassures her that "It's under control". Will's drinking habit may have also played a role in the divorce.  

I suppose it's also possible (but far less likely) that their child went missing. Will's line "Losing a child.. It's like..." to Grey Mother may have been a bit more literal, in that their kid actually "Got lost". If they did go missing somehow, that would still likely mean that they died anyways, but neither Will nor Astrid knows for certain. My personal thoughts are that it's likely that the child did die, and both Will and Astrid know about it, and they didn't go missing.

As for how they died, it's not known, but it will almost certainly be revealed in Episode 5 of Wintermute. Maybe we'll even get more clues in one of tales from TFTFT DLC.

My personal theory is that their child died of some illness. Illness seems to be a big part of Wintermute. What's going on in Perseverance Mills is I'm guessing some sort of outbreak of something, and the child's hypothetical illness could play into that somehow. Astrid, being a doctor, may have tried to cure their kid, but she failed, and she blames herself for it. She does seem pretty angry about it, telling Will about how "He doesn't know how it feels" with the kids death. Maybe the reason she cares so much about the 'Perseverance Mills outbreak' is because she feels the need to redeem herself. She couldn't save her kid, so she wants to get a second chance of sorts, and save Perseverance Mills.

[Sasharr]

1 hour ago, LunarLime said:

It does seem likely that yes they did have a child, although they almost certainly died.

I remember in the pre-redux version of Episode 1 of Wintermute, Grey Mother talks about the loss of her daughter Lily, who died in some climbing accident. When Grey Mother says this, Will responds with something like "Losing a child.. It's like..." But before he can finish Grey Mother say's "It's like losing your own life" (or something like that). Will's line certainly seems like he knows what it's like to lose a child. Unfortunately I don't really remember how the scene goes in the newer redux version of episode 1. For some reason I remember pre-redux cutscenes much better that redux ones.

The death of Will's and Astrid's child is likely what caused their divorce, which is pretty common. Also, their child's death may have caused Will to develop a drinking problem, as Astrid does mention it on he flight to Great Bear, but Will reassures her that "It's under control". Will's drinking habit may have also played a role in the divorce.  

I suppose it's also possible (but far less likely) that their child went missing. Will's line "Losing a child.. It's like..." to Grey Mother may have been a bit more literal, in that their kid actually "Got lost". If they did go missing somehow, that would still likely mean that they died anyways, but neither Will nor Astrid knows for certain. My personal thoughts are that it's likely that the child did die, and both Will and Astrid know about it, and they didn't go missing.

As for how they died, it's not known, but it will almost certainly be revealed in Episode 5 of Wintermute. Maybe we'll even get more clues in one of tales from TFTFT DLC.

My personal theory is that their child died of some illness. Illness seems to be a big part of Wintermute. What's going on in Perseverance Mills is I'm guessing some sort of outbreak of something, and the child's hypothetical illness could play into that somehow. Astrid, being a doctor, may have tried to cure their kid, but she failed, and she blames herself for it. She does seem pretty angry about it, telling Will about how "He doesn't know how it feels" with the kids death. Maybe the reason she cares so much about the 'Perseverance Mills outbreak' is because she feels the need to redeem herself. She couldn't save her kid, so she wants to get a second chance of sorts, and save Perseverance Mills.

Thanks for the well written response!

I agree with you. I have to imagine it was due to a sickness of some kind--that may explain Astrid's dedication to treating the sick at Perseverance Mills. It's unlikely that what killed the child and is affecting the Mills is the same illness, but it sure would be interesting! 

[ManicManiac]

@LunarLime

[LunarLime]

18 hours ago, Sasharr said:

Thanks for the well written response!

I agree with you. I have to imagine it was due to a sickness of some kind--that may explain Astrid's dedication to treating the sick at Perseverance Mills. It's unlikely that what killed the child and is affecting the Mills is the same illness, but it sure would be interesting! 

Oh, I agree that the child's illness was something different from what Perseverance Mills is suffering from. The Perseverance Mills outbreak is, I'm guessing some unknown illness that has either "sprung up". Or it could have been some illness that was dormant on Great Bear for some time, but popped back up again. The child's illness was probably something more "normal", like a flu for example. 

What I meant by the child's death, and Perseverance Mills tying together is more so through Astrid's guilt. Their kid gets sick, Astrid tried to treat them, failed, kid dies, and she feels guilty about it, which is an reasonable response. After this Astrid becomes ridden with guilt, Will turns to drinking to cope with the lose, so the two end up divorcing. Now, Perseverance Mills gets hit with an unknown sickness. Someone from there (probably Atwood) calls Astrid for help, and she heads over. Not only because she is a doctor, and it's her job, but also to earn redemption. She failed her kid, so she want to try again so to speak, and save Perseverance Mills.

Another piece of evidence I just thought of goes back to Will and Astrid's flight over to Great Bear. During the flight, Will asks Astrid if she's still a doctor. Now, this could just be some awkward small talk that Will brough up after being away from Astrid for so long.  Buuuuuuuuut it could also be Will genuinely being curious if Astrid decided to stick with being a doctor, despite their child dying from an illness she 'failed to cure'. Will may have considered the possibility that Astrid may have moved on to a different career after their child died, because of how guilty it made her, so he decided to ask to make sure. 

[ManicManiac]

@LunarLime ...spot on.

[Sasharr]

@LunarLime thank you kindly for your responses, you've definitely given me something to consider! Cheers for good thinking and detailed paragraphs🧐

[LunarLime]

1 hour ago, Sasharr said:

@LunarLime thank you kindly for your responses, you've definitely given me something to consider! Cheers for good thinking and detailed paragraphs🧐

You're welcome! I actually had a lot of fun writing those posts. It's kind of a blast to just let your mind wander, and theorize a bit. 

[ajb1978]

My personal narrative is that their child died, presumably from some strange new disease that she was unable to find a cure in time. My headcanon so far is that the cure she brought to Great Bear, is the same cure that would've saved her child, had she had time to finish it. This is where I get into speculation but because of the astronomy arc to the story, I suspect this disease is of extraterrestrial origin. Hence the military secrecy. Maybe biological like an alien virus, maybe some kind of radiation poisoning from some cosmic event we've never seen before. 

While on the plane Will sounds like he's starting to explain something, "the choices I made", and I know in very early, early drafts of the story Will had taken some shady jobs flying for some shady people.  I'm wondering if in the final draft maybe in desperation to save his child he did end up taking shady jobs for quick cash to help fund Astrid's research, and that's why Astrid knew he'd be the perfect pilot to fly her someplace she's not supposed to be, with cargo she's not supposed to have.

Ultimately though, I don't think all the loose ends are ever going to be tied up. They kind of enjoy telling only half of any of the stories.

[Sherri]

10 hours ago, ajb1978 said:

 I suspect this disease is of extraterrestrial origin. Hence the military secrecy. Maybe biological like an alien virus, maybe some kind of radiation poisoning from some cosmic event we've never seen before. 

Ooo good theory! Maybe a tie-in with the experiments we learn of in the Tales DLC!

[ajb1978]

13 hours ago, Sherri said:

Ooo good theory! Maybe a tie-in with the experiments we learn of in the Tales DLC!

Or a goddamn genius book to sell in 3 years. "All of The Long Dark stories and mysteries explained." I mean I'd buy that. And I'd probably be willing to pay a lot too.

Edit: Although real talk, I'd sincerely prefer if all the mysteries can be unraveled through playing both Story and Survivor mode, and being very thorough in both. Let the player have a real, solid chance to piece the mysteries together, and then ultimately spoil it all on a wiki anyway for those who just don't care to be bothered or don't have the time to play the game to that extent. It puts all the power in the player's hand. Do they want to Google it? OK you paid for it, it's your choice. If not? You should have a real genuine shot at uncovering all the mysteries yourself. It shouldn't be NES Contra hard though. More like NES Legend of Zelda Second Quest hard. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by ajb1978

[Sasharr]

On 7/13/2023 at 7:23 PM, ajb1978 said:

My personal narrative is that their child died, presumably from some strange new disease that she was unable to find a cure in time. My headcanon so far is that the cure she brought to Great Bear, is the same cure that would've saved her child, had she had time to finish it. This is where I get into speculation but because of the astronomy arc to the story, I suspect this disease is of extraterrestrial origin. Hence the military secrecy. Maybe biological like an alien virus, maybe some kind of radiation poisoning from some cosmic event we've never seen before. 

While on the plane Will sounds like he's starting to explain something, "the choices I made", and I know in very early, early drafts of the story Will had taken some shady jobs flying for some shady people.  I'm wondering if in the final draft maybe in desperation to save his child he did end up taking shady jobs for quick cash to help fund Astrid's research, and that's why Astrid knew he'd be the perfect pilot to fly her someplace she's not supposed to be, with cargo she's not supposed to have.

Ultimately though, I don't think all the loose ends are ever going to be tied up. They kind of enjoy telling only half of any of the stories.

Thanks for all these great theories! Might start another post discussing the origins or specifics of what is plaguing the people of Perseverance Mills. Also, can I ask where you learned about Will's shadier past? I never knew, but I absolutely love the idea.

I think that, while frustrating at times, Hinterland's storytelling style works in harmony with one of the core themes of the game: the Old World is dead,  and the past can't help us. Be it old hunting habits, laws of nature, or a broken marriage, it simply doesn't apply to the Silent Apocalypse. We have to fight for knowledge like we fight for survival--and I believe that is what makes TLD so unique.

Drama aside YAH PLZ MORE LORE HINTERLAND

[LunarLime]

18 hours ago, Sasharr said:

 can I ask where you learned about Will's shadier past?

So I don't know exactly where @ajb1978got that info. However I did some digging myself and found this:

https://thelongdark-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Will_Mackenzie

It's a rather outdated wiki page, from an also outdated wiki, but because of that it does shed some light on an early backstory for Will. Now keep in mind, it is a fan-made wiki page, so take it with, like, a tablespoon of salt. However, I do think there is some truth to it at least, because it is a rather lengthy backstory, and I don't think anybody would come up with all that out of thin air.

This wiki even has some info on an character named "Anna" who was some sort of early love interest for Will. Basically Anna had two daughters, and an ex husband who was some deadbeat that got drunk, high, and went to strip clubs all the time. Because of Anna's ex being about as useful as a wheelchair with peddles, Will took it upon himself to take care of Anna, and even be an informal fatherly figure to her two daughters. However, their relationship seemingly ended, when Will chose to continue doing illegal flights, as refusing them would likely lead to the death of Will and his family, as the clients "hiring" them wouldn't take no for an answer.

In story mode, you would have a photo, or locket if you were a Kickstarter backer, of Anna and her daughters. Looking at the photo would restore an scraped 'need' called 'Willpower', which honestly, I wish they kept, simply because of the funny pun, "Will"power.

Reading all this makes me think that this original story mode for TLD would have been much darker. Obviously, the main story we have now isn't exactly sunshine and unicorns.... But this story seemed like it would have been delt with some rather harsh things.

[Sasharr]

49 minutes ago, LunarLime said:

So I don't know exactly where @ajb1978got that info. However I did some digging myself and found this:

https://thelongdark-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Will_Mackenzie

It's a rather outdated wiki page, from an also outdated wiki, but because of that it does shed some light on an early backstory for Will. Now keep in mind, it is a fan-made wiki page, so take it with, like, a tablespoon of salt. However, I do think there is some truth to it at least, because it is a rather lengthy backstory, and I don't think anybody would come up with all that out of thin air.

This wiki even has some info on an character named "Anna" who was some sort of early love interest for Will. Basically Anna had two daughters, and an ex husband who was some deadbeat that got drunk, high, and went to strip clubs all the time. Because of Anna's ex being about as useful as a wheelchair with peddles, Will took it upon himself to take care of Anna, and even be an informal fatherly figure to her two daughters. However, their relationship seemingly ended, when Will chose to continue doing illegal flights, as refusing them would likely lead to the death of Will and his family, as the clients "hiring" them wouldn't take no for an answer.

In story mode, you would have a photo, or locket if you were a Kickstarter backer, of Anna and her daughters. Looking at the photo would restore an scraped 'need' called 'Willpower', which honestly, I wish they kept, simply because of the funny pun, "Will"power.

Reading all this makes me think that this original story mode for TLD would have been much darker. Obviously, the main story we have now isn't exactly sunshine and unicorns.... But this story seemed like it would have been delt with some rather harsh things.

wow....I'm honestly impressed by the sheer amount of lore i just learned lol. The end of that older article describes "the crash", which sounds a lot like the crash in episode one after the flare. I think that Anna and her children must have been the proto-Astrid. Thanks for sharing! I love that kinda stuff. 

To be honest I would have loved a darker, more detailed Wintermute. I know there's already child murder, mass death and gang violence, but a more complex Wintermute would have been very interesting. But I must remember it all boils down to the amount of staff and money Hinterland has. Though ep 3 is probably my favorite, ep 4 was fascinating to me because of the interplay between Mackenzie and Mathis. There was a tangible sense of danger and despair that some of the earlier episodes lack--after hours fighting the elements, it was refreshing and chillingly effective to see some man vs. man conflict.

All in all, hoping the final episode is long and allows us to switch back and forth between our favorite Canadian couple lmao.

[Semple Fi]

Are we SURE they are divorced?

I thought they just separated, and they both still wear their wedding rings.  It’s specifically mentioned during the flight scene in EP1 before the crash.  

[Sasharr]

4 hours ago, Semple Fi said:

Are we SURE they are divorced?

I thought they just separated, and they both still wear their wedding rings.  It’s specifically mentioned during the flight scene in EP1 before the crash.  

On her fandom page, it refers to Will as her "ex-husband", then later uses the term "separated". I'm unsure if they are legally divorced, and for how long they've been apart, but it seems they no longer live together or are in regular contact. 

[LunarLime]

4 hours ago, Semple Fi said:

Are we SURE they are divorced?

I thought they just separated, and they both still wear their wedding rings.  It’s specifically mentioned during the flight scene in EP1 before the crash.  

That's actually a good point.

I think chances are they, yes they are legally divorced. Neither Will or Astrid just never really outright say that they divorced, because, well it just wouldn't make much sense to I guess? Everyone that they meet are, at best, just random survivors that... As Will puts are "Are at least slightly crazy", and at worst, are downright enemies, like Mathis. I guess it doesn't really make sense for either of them to go on about their life messy past life, with their ex spouse. Closest thing we get to that is with Astrid and Molly, when they talk about Astrid's relation with Will. But even then, all she basically says is, "Our relationship is complicated".

As for why they still wear the rings, it could just be because they still care about each other. They don't hate each other, their relationship is just rather strained.

[Semple Fi]

@LunarLime

@Sasharr

 

 whatever the specifics are, the vibe is that they still love each other but the strain of the son’s death caused them to separate…. And I’m rooting for a reconciliation and happy ending