With a Cougar soon to be prowling... I'd like a Bear Spear please.

[ManicManiac]

I know it's a very old wishlist item... and I don't really tend to ask for things in the Wishlist sub-forum (lately I try to avoid even commenting in this sub-forums for the most part).

With a cougar possibly starting to stalk through Great Bear Island (possibly sometime over the next year); then I think it might be a good time for the bear spear.  It's been discussed for a long while, both by the community as well as Raph and members of the HT Team.

(oh, while I'm here... being able to make a cowl from wolf/timberwolf would be nice too...)

[Leeanda]

I'd love to see timberwolf clothing too!     Weren't there supposed to be variants added to the new update?

Edited December 11, 2022 by Leeanda

[A Lamp]

46 minutes ago, Leeanda said:

Weren't there supposed to be variants added to the new update?

They said so in the roadmap, but honestly i thought something like a ballistic vest with pouches or an upgraded expedition parka.

Though in the steam page of TFTFT they mentioned new clothing and the variants separately.

[Leeanda]

5 minutes ago, A Lamp said:

They said so in the roadmap, but honestly i thought something like a ballistic vest with pouches or an upgraded expedition parka.

Though in the steam page of TFTFT they mentioned new clothing and the variants separately.

That could mean cougar gear!   But I still want t-wolf stuff!😊 That cowl looks great . We need more camo outfits and the t-wolves would  fit perfectly.

[conanjaguar]

I think the main concern with putting the Bear Spear into the game, as with so many other great ideas, is balance.

A wolf can kill you pretty darn dead, but (at least on lower difficulties) you have a better-than-average chance of fighting it off. Wolves, bears, moose… each can kill you just as dead as either of the other two. In my eyes, this is part of the appeal of the game, and the reason I find most others of the genre lacking; a harsh world that will punish you with permanent death for the slightest mistake.

Yes, I agree that a Bear Spear would be a great addition to the game, but it must be implemented correctly. It must not render the player Deus ex Machina, able to take on a bear or moose in hand-to-paw combat and win without much damage to person or equipment. There must be an element of risk involved.

The Bear Spear should not work like it did in Wintermute, leaving the player unharmed if they won the struggle, and dead if they lost it. Rather, it be a last line of defense. If you missed the flare gun shot and the bear is charging… then is the time to use the Bear Spear. It should be a “Fight Back!” quick time event like with a wolf struggle. The bear will do it’s usual damage to you. (Most players can survive one bear attack. It’s the second charge, usually provoked by a revenge shot in the rear, that does the job.) You will be able to fight back, perhaps by damaging the bear directly, perhaps by inflicting blood loss, and perhaps by simply reducing the damage the bear does to you.

Anyway, that’s all for my rant .

[ManicManiac]

@conanjaguar

Yes, I am aware (and share many of those sentiments)... Raph mentioned the issues of balance and I've been engaged in several conversations about that very topic in the past.  (I'd go back to find them, but I just don't have the time right now 🤭)
I just wanted to sort of mark the coming of the Cougar by mentioning the topic again.   

[Leeanda]

I wondered briefly if the fire hardened arrows were introduced because of the cougar?   It could be a compromise of sorts.. 

I'm not saying that the bear spear won't be added or it's a bad idea though.  Just speculation.🙂

[conanjaguar]

1 hour ago, Leeanda said:

I wondered briefly if the fire hardened arrows were introduced because of the cougar? 

Not very likely. The fire hardened arrows lack metal tips, and, if anything, will only serve to annoy the cougar into attacking you.

[Leeanda]

12 minutes ago, conanjaguar said:

Not very likely. The fire hardened arrows lack metal tips, and, if anything, will only serve to annoy the cougar into attacking you.

Fair point. Not sure it needs an excuse though😁. 

 

[Razum]

I like the idea of a boar spear more. It would be more balanced.
https://hinterlandforums.com/forums/topic/42233-new-weapon-boar-spear

[Ghurcb]

I think a bear spear could be added into the game as a late-game item. Requiring unique and rare resources, like oak sapling, and a lot of coal to forge it, would make the spear fairly balanced.

https://hinterlandforums.com/forums/topic/40873-add-a-bear-spear-to-survival

[ManicManiac]

I've managed to carve out a little time to look up some of those previous conversations I was referring to earlier.
Thought I might stitch together some of them 🤭

  

On 9/17/2020 at 10:04 AM, ManicManiac said:

As for the subject of potential merits the spear itself:
I would posit that it is a defensive weapon.  If we look at the gameplay of episode 2, we can't through it.  Bear spears work because they are braced against the ground and depend on the bear impaling itself.  Given it relies on the bear to attack makes it a purely defensive weapon.  In the context of both the story mode and survival sandbox, it's really just a dedicated tool for dealing with bears.  Soo... while I tend to agree it would not have any use beyond that, it is highly effective in it's dedicated purpose.  I think the idea being, you'd only want to have it with you when you planned on hunting a bear.

What I liked about the Bear Spear in Story Mode is that it wasn't just some overpowered weapon... it came with personal risk.  (Excluding the bit where we were dealing with what was characterized as a "Demon Bear" that was only harmed by the "Sacred Spear") The bear spear itself just made it possible to win a struggle with a bear.  The player still gets roughed up a bit, but not so much as a full-on mauling. 

The part I didn't like about that aspect of Episode 2... was that every time you met the bear it required boss battle-like tactics (in that we needed to impale the thing 3 times each time we encountered it -- again though that was because it was characterized as a "Demon Bear").

I guess for survival mode I'd envision it working as a purely defensive weapon, only useful against a charging Bear (*Maybe/possibly a charging Moose).  The player would get roughed up in the struggle, and take some damage (torn clothes/bruises/bleeding wounds/sprains - basically anything we might get from a standard wolf struggle).  Even though the struggle might be potentially longer and/or more difficult than the standard  wolf struggle...  if the struggle was won, there would lay our impaled foe.  (I'm thinking about that scene from the movie "The Edge" as I write this)

So... while not a necessary addition, I think it could potentially be an interesting one. 
And, as I mentioned before... I only really give it consideration in the first place because Raph spoke in the past about it's possible inclusion in to Survival Mode.

On 9/18/2020 at 10:02 AM, ManicManiac said:

I can agree about it's effectiveness against charging bears and perhaps even moose (I spoke about that in the previous post where I discuss how I'd envision it working).  However, I'd tend to think that wolves are far more nimble (if only due to the fact that they are so much lighter), I really don't see the wolves in this game just throwing themselves onto a spear, especially when they are so good at juking when we are simply just aiming in to take a shot. 

Yes, I know that has more to do with terrain and pathing, I just think that should be bear spear ever make it to Survival... I'd rather it be a weapon dedicated to allowing the player to win a struggle with the only two animals that it's currently not possible to win struggles with (a.k.a. the bear and the moose). 

On 1/3/2021 at 2:50 PM, ManicManiac said:

I am wary about stuffing in too many weapons into the game.  I am worried that adding too much could undermine the intended experience of the game.  I don't want to ever feel really safe in this game, the fun of playing for me is the constant threat and danger... the struggle of not being super well equipped.

I think it serves the game better to have to be cautious and aware of surrounding wildlife.  I wouldn't want to be able to roam around with impunity because I know I can just drive off/kill anything that crosses my path.  I'm not saying this suggestion would do that... I'm just concerned about the cumulative effect on gameplay of having too many weapons and defenses.

I am concerned about having too many weapons in the game... I don't really want to run around feeling like Gordon Freeman in this game... because I don't think it's that kind of game.

Also, it goes back again to that feeling of vulnerability.  I think if we have too many weapons, we end up feeling like we're safe...on top of the food chain again.  I'd argue that part of the heart of this game is the feeling of isolation and vulnerability.  That we don't have everything we need to be on top... that we have to struggle, move carefully, and gauge risk and reward.  I tend to think that adding a more and more weapons will undermine and greatly take away from that.  Which is why I don't think we need any more of them.

The only weapon that I'd be curious about (and solely because Hinterland has discussed possibly reworking it for implementation into Survival Mode in the past) would be the Bear Spear.  While I think it's definitely not a necessity, I would be curious to see what Hinterland would come up with for it.  However, I still don't think we really need any more weapons in this game.

On 9/16/2020 at 7:40 PM, ManicManiac said:

Yes, when episodes 1 & 2 - Redux arrived... Raph did speak about the possibility of trying to work the idea of the Bear Spear into something they felt was suitable for it's inclusion into survival mode.  In Wintermute it was more of a specific plot device, so I definitely understand why they did not included it in the sandbox at the time.

This is some of what Raph had spoken of in The Milton Mailbag:

On 4/9/2021 at 4:19 PM, ManicManiac said:

***[A Note Here for Context]***
At the original time of positing, it seemed that adding it to survival was very much a goal for them.  However, it also seems that adapting it for integration into survival must have been difficult or tricky, since that hasn't yet come to fruition.  - here was one of Raph's statements back in 2018:

  Per Milton Mailbag - Dispatch #1:

On 6/22/2018 at 6:01 PM, Raphael van Lierop said:

Question 4 from Twitter user @ExtremisAntares:

Quote

"How will the Bear Spear be used in the game? "The Edge" style or have you guys come up with a different method?

Thanks for the question! For the most part, we like to balance the cost/benefit equation across all our gameplay tools, so for the Bear Spear, we're balancing the benefit of a craftable weapon that could take out a Bear -- a high-value resource if you can kill it! -- with the risk of engaging with it and "failing". So right now we really like the risk of having to face the Bear up close and "pay" for the potential to win a fight. This is a riskier way than, say, shooting it with a Rifle. It also fulfills a strong wilderness survival fantasy. All that said, like most things in our game, we're constantly tweaking and refining systems so if we find a solution for the Bear Spear that we think is better, we'll change it. 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by ManicManiac