Wolf survival vs. wilderness survival

[bikingviking]

I know yall are sick of hearing people complaining about the wolves. And for the most part, I think they add a fun element of danger into the game and their behaviour in the new version is especially great.

My big problem is that the wolves are significantly more difficult than all other survival elements. I've never died by freezing or starving to death or bacterial infection. Only by wolf attack. Especially in Stalker mode where the entire map is crawling with them. It's not a wilderness survival game, it's a wolf survival game.

If I had my way, there would be fewer wolves and harsher elements. For example:

* Storms that last for days

* Real 100% whiteout conditions

* Much colder indoor environments (when it's -30C out, an unheated trailer is hardly any warmer)

* Drinking water that freezes and needs to be thawed by fire

* Increased scarcity of some especially critical items, ie. matches, first aid items

There are just a few ideas. I'm sure there are others that would be easy to implement. I just feel it's skewed too far in the direction of wolf survival and undermines some other really good aspects of the game.

[Loppysaurusrex]

You got some interesting ideas there m80, but the reason why you're surviving is because you're very well equipped, I've died like 2x to the environment and I agree it needs to be changed for the harsher and PV is a good example of the way it needs to be, I got stuck in a cave for like 3 days in PV due to a storm, THAT WAS AWESOME, it was scary, and the fire kept going out.

Also yea the houses aren't going to be warm at all because there's no warming unless we're talking about warmth coming from the ground.

[pulkmees]

Houses should at least store heat from your own fire for at least a day.(the ones built with fireplaces)

[mrrrmrrr]

I agree that ideally the wilderness survival should be amped up in the places you mentioned.

To add on to the suggestions you've made, perhaps there could be a "degraded building" mechanics? For instance, some houses could have broken windows, leaking roofs, doors frozen shut, etc., all things which would need to be fixed (using time and resources) in order to make them conserve heat well enough to sleep in.

Also--more environmental hazards! Hidden fissures, tree wells (probably one of the scariest things be caught in out in the wild, ESPECIALLY if you're on your own), unstable snowbanks, snow blindness (I think this one could be really cool--maybe add a "sunglasses" item to the game to help prevent it)...

[FoneBoneJay]

I know yall are sick of hearing people complaining about the wolves. And for the most part, I think they add a fun element of danger into the game and their behaviour in the new version is especially great.

My big problem is that the wolves are significantly more difficult than all other survival elements. I've never died by freezing or starving to death or bacterial infection. Only by wolf attack. Especially in Stalker mode where the entire map is crawling with them. It's not a wilderness survival game, it's a wolf survival game.

If I had my way, there would be fewer wolves and harsher elements. For example:

* Storms that last for days

* Real 100% whiteout conditions

* Much colder indoor environments (when it's -30C out, an unheated trailer is hardly any warmer)

* Drinking water that freezes and needs to be thawed by fire

* Increased scarcity of some especially critical items, ie. matches, first aid items

There are just a few ideas. I'm sure there are others that would be easy to implement. I just feel it's skewed too far in the direction of wolf survival and undermines some other really good aspects of the game.

I am in favor of all of your ideas. The whiteout could be worsened. It is possible to be completely bum fuck lost in the woods without a trail of some time to guide you if even possible. Would be kool to be able to use some sorta string to roll between trees.

I completely about water. Not only should this be simulated like a real liquid but also we should have to locate the actual containers to hold the water or at the very least, a pan to boil water, and then take outside to freeze and then pack in the pack as a chunk of ice.

If they reduce matches we need to be able to fucking craft fire. Can I get anybody on board with backing that or is this always going to be a B survival game?

[FoneBoneJay]

I know yall are sick of hearing people complaining about the wolves. And for the most part, I think they add a fun element of danger into the game and their behaviour in the new version is especially great.

My big problem is that the wolves are significantly more difficult than all other survival elements. I've never died by freezing or starving to death or bacterial infection. Only by wolf attack. Especially in Stalker mode where the entire map is crawling with them. It's not a wilderness survival game, it's a wolf survival game.

If I had my way, there would be fewer wolves and harsher elements. For example:

* Storms that last for days

* Real 100% whiteout conditions

* Much colder indoor environments (when it's -30C out, an unheated trailer is hardly any warmer)

* Drinking water that freezes and needs to be thawed by fire

* Increased scarcity of some especially critical items, ie. matches, first aid items

There are just a few ideas. I'm sure there are others that would be easy to implement. I just feel it's skewed too far in the direction of wolf survival and undermines some other really good aspects of the game.

I am in favor of all of your ideas. The whiteout could be worsened. It is possible to be completely bum fuck lost in the woods without a trail of some time to guide you if even possible. Would be kool to be able to use some sorta string to roll between trees.

I completely about water. Not only should this be simulated like a real liquid but also we should have to locate the actual containers to hold the water or at the very least, a pan to boil water, and then take outside to freeze and then pack in the pack as a chunk of ice.

If they reduce matches we need to be able to fucking craft fire. Can I get anybody on board with backing that or is this always going to be a B survival game?

[FoneBoneJay]

I know yall are sick of hearing people complaining about the wolves. And for the most part, I think they add a fun element of danger into the game and their behaviour in the new version is especially great.

My big problem is that the wolves are significantly more difficult than all other survival elements. I've never died by freezing or starving to death or bacterial infection. Only by wolf attack. Especially in Stalker mode where the entire map is crawling with them. It's not a wilderness survival game, it's a wolf survival game.

If I had my way, there would be fewer wolves and harsher elements. For example:

* Storms that last for days

* Real 100% whiteout conditions

* Much colder indoor environments (when it's -30C out, an unheated trailer is hardly any warmer)

* Drinking water that freezes and needs to be thawed by fire

* Increased scarcity of some especially critical items, ie. matches, first aid items

There are just a few ideas. I'm sure there are others that would be easy to implement. I just feel it's skewed too far in the direction of wolf survival and undermines some other really good aspects of the game.

I am in favor of all of your ideas. The whiteout could be worsened. It is possible to be completely bum fuck lost in the woods without a trail of some time to guide you if even possible. Would be kool to be able to use some sorta string to roll between trees.

I completely about water. Not only should this be simulated like a real liquid but also we should have to locate the actual containers to hold the water or at the very least, a pan to boil water, and then take outside to freeze and then pack in the pack as a chunk of ice.

If they reduce matches we need to be able to fucking craft fire. Can I get anybody on board with backing that or is this always going to be a B survival game?

[bikingviking]

You got some interesting ideas there m80, but the reason why you're surviving is because you're very well equipped, I've died like 2x to the environment and I agree it needs to be changed for the harsher and PV is a good example of the way it needs to be, I got stuck in a cave for like 3 days in PV due to a storm, THAT WAS AWESOME, it was scary, and the fire kept going out.

You're right that I am well equipped, and I that's the problem I'm bringing up. I want to spend less time getting attacked by wolves, more time running blindly through whiteout conditions, starving, freezing, at 40% health and minutes from death unless I find food. Because those are the best, most exhilarating moments of the game.

I haven't even been to PV yet but if you got stuck in a cave for three days, that sounds pretty scary and badass, exactly what I want more of!

[bikingviking]

I completely about water. Not only should this be simulated like a real liquid but also we should have to locate the actual containers to hold the water or at the very least, a pan to boil water, and then take outside to freeze and then pack in the pack as a chunk of ice.

Yes! You should need to find plastic water bottles before you can even hold water, and need a pot or pan in order to boil it. And water should freeze when it's been in the cold for a few hours. These are simple changes but they make the wilderness dramatically more harsh.

If they reduce matches we need to be able to fucking craft fire. Can I get anybody on board with backing that or is this always going to be a B survival game?

Yes!! Fewer matches and craftable bow-drill!

[coryduran]

I do agree with you in the sense that I have only ever died from wolves. I also agree that the most exhilarating and fun times of the game are when you are fighting to survive the elements/desperately hunting for food or shelter. I like a lot of the ideas that are coming up in here. Matches are definitely way too abundant. When I start a game and sweep out ML to head to CH, sometimes I end up with 100, 150 matches when you combine wood and cardboard. It makes the aspect of fire starting and what not really easy in the early game. I think it would be more challenging if you made matches more scarce, and gave players an option to have a long term fire starting ability. Like maybe you can have players learn to craft bow drill? But not give them the option at the beginning. Others have mentioned using books not only as fuel but a way for players to learn things? You could have a book somewhere in the game that allows people to learn to use bow drills. You can also balance this by having them able to break and by people never having 100% chance to start a fire using one even with maxed fire starting skills, unless they have gas or something.

Like I'm thinking that maybe each map has a total of 60 matches all together or something, if that, and that the bow drill will only give you an 80% chance to start a fire even when your skill is maxed out. You can also give it a percentage chance to break each use, one that would increase as the condition of the bow drill goes down. We already have all the resources available in game to make something like a bow drill.

Oh or batteries and steel wool! We already have batteries sitting around in all these vehicles, and steel wool would be an abundant household supply/stuff you'd find in stores. There are tons of ways to start fires more long term and in a way that makes matches less of a must have resource, which would allow the developers to make matches less abundant.

Also this is a little off topic butttt, why don't we have flashlights? Lmao.

[FoneBoneJay]

I do agree with you in the sense that I have only ever died from wolves. I also agree that the most exhilarating and fun times of the game are when you are fighting to survive the elements/desperately hunting for food or shelter. I like a lot of the ideas that are coming up in here. Matches are definitely way too abundant. When I start a game and sweep out ML to head to CH, sometimes I end up with 100, 150 matches when you combine wood and cardboard. It makes the aspect of fire starting and what not really easy in the early game. I think it would be more challenging if you made matches more scarce, and gave players an option to have a long term fire starting ability. Like maybe you can have players learn to craft bow drill? But not give them the option at the beginning. Others have mentioned using books not only as fuel but a way for players to learn things? You could have a book somewhere in the game that allows people to learn to use bow drills. You can also balance this by having them able to break and by people never having 100% chance to start a fire using one even with maxed fire starting skills, unless they have gas or something.

Like I'm thinking that maybe each map has a total of 60 matches all together or something, if that, and that the bow drill will only give you an 80% chance to start a fire even when your skill is maxed out. You can also give it a percentage chance to break each use, one that would increase as the condition of the bow drill goes down. We already have all the resources available in game to make something like a bow drill.

Oh or batteries and steel wool! We already have batteries sitting around in all these vehicles, and steel wool would be an abundant household supply/stuff you'd find in stores. There are tons of ways to start fires more long term and in a way that makes matches less of a must have resource, which would allow the developers to make matches less abundant.

Also this is a little off topic butttt, why don't we have flashlights? Lmao.

Agree on matches

Agree on firestarting

Agree on resources overload.

Steel wool and batteries are a no go, as are flashlights, no electricity, it doesn't function the same way anymore due to the magnetic shift. At least as explained in the current lore.

[The_Hawk35]

Personally I think that there needs to be some changes to all the levels:

- Pilgrim - This is supposed to be about travelling around seeing the world. To encourage this I'd like to see the resources limited so that the player has to travel around. Also while I agree that the wildlife shouldn't attack you for just wandering around. But I also don't think that Wolves should run away from a kill when you approach. I personally think that they should grown a warning and stay where they are and only attack if you continue to move in.

- Voyager - The new update is pretty good, and I see this as the real survival mode. Where preparation and planning help you survive. To help make that happen I like where the loot is now, the wolves are decent with the hotfix. However I'd like to see changes to the weather. I'd like it if about half the storms were 3-5 day storms. That would mean that you'd either need to carry enough food for several days, have several stashes around so that you have safe shelters, or chance you can find your way. This way the weather becomes a MUCH bigger threat in Voyager.

- Stalker - This is the furry jaws of death mode And I think highly aggressive wolves that charge LOS to you is what this is about.

[TarjaS]

Houses should at least store heat from your own fire for at least a day.(the ones built with fireplaces)

Actually, the kind of fireplaces used in the game are very inefficient in retaining heat. You need a heat-storing fireplace, if you want it to keep the room warm long after the fire has gone out. Also, if a house has been cold for a long time, it won't warm up in a few hours. It's cold and damp and a little fire in an open fireplace isn't going to do much about that.

[The_Hawk35]

Houses should at least store heat from your own fire for at least a day.(the ones built with fireplaces)

Actually, the kind of fireplaces used in the game are very inefficient in retaining heat. You need a heat-storing fireplace, if you want it to keep the room warm long after the fire has gone out. Also, if a house has been cold for a long time, it won't warm up in a few hours. It's cold and damp and a little fire in an open fireplace isn't going to do much about that.

Really if I had a space like the Camp Office I'd take all the mattresses. blankets, sheets, etc I could find anywhere and build a mini cabin including the bunk beds and the stove. That would keep that area for quite a while after the fire went out.

I'm aware however that isn't realistic from a programming perspective so a good balance from a game perspective is to keep the house warm for a longer period.

[bbennett2]

Couldn't agree more with this thread!

In a real life survival situation you need to focus on 3 things: Water, shelter and food. This game gives you multiple cabins and houses, and an unlimited supply of water. The only thing you have to concern yourself with is avoiding wolves and collecting food.

I'd love to see shelter construction, more primitive fire skills, and more traps. I've mentioned it before, but I really hope a survival book can be found which allows you to learn and become proficient at a myriad of skills. The addition of books makes me very hopeful that this will happen.

[Harryer]

This thread.

[coryduran]

HAHA fonebone I don't know why I didn't even connect the geomagnetic event lol, duh. That answers that one quick enough.

I will agree with everyone else in here that there seems to be a lot of consensus among us on these ideas at least, which is kind of beautiful because this kind of consensus has been very rare in my time on these forums lmao.

[coryduran]

Eek I do have to emphasize that while I only die from wolf attacks, I DO NOT think wolves are too hard. I just think the other "Could kill you" parts of the game aren't likely enough to actually kill you. While I want the game to make the environment and weather more of a threat, I certainly don't want this to happen at the expense of wolf difficulty.

[Eames]

Bumping because it's true - I died to cold only few times during blizzard. All other dozens of deaths were wolves. I too have some ideas to contribute:

• Wolves should do less damage but leave lasting wounds that need longer recovery. This reduces volatility and increases tension.

• Right now firestriker works the same way as matches. Instead it should have low chance of success but very high durability.

• You shouldn't be able to do repairs/crafting without a light source.

• Fatigue, hunger and thirst rates should be increased even when you're carrying below 30kg. The more you have, the more safe you are, the more you should be taxed.

• All tools (esp. rifle) should weight more and also backpack's capacity could be reduced. Right now it's tough only until you find all required equipment. Rifle provides security and food. To balance it out, it should reduce the ability to utilize all that food. Also - previous point.

Basically, there's not enough strategic choices in the game. Right now instead of thinking about what you should do it's about crossing the items off a checklist. Not enough tradeoffs.

[ChillPlayer]

Basically, there's not enough strategic choices in the game.

I beg to differ:

http://hinterlandforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=3957

There is a lot of strategy in dealing with wolves

[Eames]

There is a lot of strategy in dealing with wolves

But not much outside it. Hence the problem. The game currently is "Wolf survival simulator". It's especially fitting since wolves here act almost like zombies in other games.

[ChillPlayer]

Well then I invite you to spend some weeks in Pleasant Valley, almost no wolves there compared to the other maps and you will die mostly from blizzards or starvation. Once you passed the point where wolves are your biggest trouble you begin to realize that this game has way more depth than it appears in the beginning

[Eames]

"In Pleasant Valley, almost no wolves there compared to the other maps and you will die mostly from blizzards or starvation." – Do you even read the thread before posting? The problem that it's too easy (thus too boring) to survive the wilderness alone.

And then comes your obligatory humblebrag as in every other thread...

[ChillPlayer]

No you just stubbornly ignore everything other's are telling you. Read my "scariest moment in PV" thread to see how not at all boring and very exciting it can get without wildlife. But I wasted enough energy on you, I won't be bothering you again with a reply but then again, if you're not interested in a discussion, why start one in the first place?

[Eames]

To anybody wondering, here's how it usually goes with ChillPlayer:

– Come to a thread where the topic is that game's too easy.

– Agree with what people are saying and give contribute with your own ideas.

– Chill comes and does his program:

– Disagrees with game being too easy and plugs some guide of his whether here or on his Youtube channel.

– Then humblebrags about his hundreds-of-days long playthroughs and uses false superiority to discredit your opinion.

- In this particular case calls me "stubborn" (?) and "ignorant of what others are telling" even though I agree with the thread and he's the one opposing.

If the game is not too easy, why are you surviving this long? If it's because you're more experienced then why your guides don't offer anything I didn't know nor do I have troubles surviving myself? You're just contradicting yourself. Every forum has such personalities, this one isn't an exception.

* * *

Right now the game is interesting only during first and last week. Between them there can be several hundred days of boring routine. There's an another argument floating around this forum and which ChilPlayer also propagates. It says that players should just "soldier through" the middle 100+ days until it gets interesting again. If they can't force themselves, then it's their problem.

Bullshit. Imagine if there was some singleplayer game with, let's say 15 hours of gameplay. Only the first and the last hour of the campaign is interesting, the others are a bore-fest. Would someone dare to say it's the players' fault of not committing enough despite lack of enjoyment? No, it's the responsibility of a developer to balance the game. If it's too easy, it's boring. If it's too hard, it's frustrating. As long as it stays in the middle, it's exciting. The intensity has to variate, but it should never ever get boring.