Wolves stop chasing if they can't see or reach you

[Oywin]

So, a thing I realized that I really want to see in a future update is, well, what the title says.
I want the wolves to calm down a little on the infinite chase behaviour. If they can see you, but not reach you, fine they may run around in circles or stand growling at you, as they already do - but if they can't physically see OR reach the player, I'd like them to eventually move on.

I've had several encounters with wolves where I can avoid them by being above them (for example atop a pier), however since the AI doesn't know what to do in these situations the wolves infinitely "chase" me directly below my position until I'm reachable. And somehow they always know exactly where I am even if line of sight is broken. This get's really annoying coupled with the constant sound of their running and growling.

I just spent maybe two-three ingame hours in the Cannery, cooking food and warming my self by a fire while a group of Timberwolves were directly below just constantly "running", barking and growling even though they hadn't seen me for hours or had any way to reach me. Eventually my immersion was so broken by this that I simply quit and decided to reload the game, hoping to avoid them.

I know the situation is kinda specific, but it can happen pretty often and it looks, sounds and feels silly when it does.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Oywin

[Guest kristaok]

It's not just sight though, wolves can also smell... so immersion breaking in my opinion would be the opposite from what you think. Meaning I would find it immersion breaking for a wolf to stop chasing me just because they can't see me, when in reality they can still smell me. Does that make any sense??? I hope so.

So yea... try to think of it that way, there's more senses at play here than just sight.

Edited March 4, 2020 by kristaok

[Oywin]

On 3/4/2020 at 9:57 PM, kristaok said:

It's not just sight though, wolves can also smell... so immersion breaking in my opinion would be the opposite from what you think. Meaning I would find it immersion breaking for a wolf to stop chasing me just because they can't see me, when in reality they can still smell me. Does that make any sense??? I hope so.

So yea... try to think of it that way, there's more senses at play here than just sight.

I suspected someone would bring smell up.  And sure, they probably would still smell me in reality. But I suspect that's not the actual game logic reason why they're stuck in chase mode in this case. It's more to do with them having no way to back down unless scared off or killed once they've entered that mode. But I think they should do something else than growl and do the running animation forever when they actually can't see or reach me. I think it'd make more sense that they'd quiet down, sit or lie down, maybe retreat a little and keep a look out for whenever I leave again, at least after a while. It's just the constant sound of them being in chase mode on the other side of the floor/walls that's really annoying to listen to. Besides, wolves already lose interest if you enter a building that is "another scene" so to speak. You know, the ones with a little loading screen as you enter or exit the door. What happens to "smell" then? The real reason they stop chasing you then is because you don't exist in their scene anymore of course, and this behaviour is inconsistent with situations I described.

[manolitode]

On 3/4/2020 at 9:50 PM, Oywin said:

So, a thing I realized that I really want to see in a future update is, well, what the title says.
I want the wolves to calm down a little on the infinite chase behaviour. If they can see you, but not reach you, fine they may run around in circles or stand growling at you, as they already do - but if they can't physically see OR reach the player, I'd like them to eventually move on.

I realize that you don't invoke the realism argument here, but one could argue that the wolves running around in circles beneath their prey for hours is one of the more realistic aspects of wolf behavior in this game. I would very much like to see wolves' ability to track you through trees and rocks etc weakened. On the other hand, we have some advantages that make up for the hassles. You can stand very close a wolf and they won't notice you if you're crouching, especially if you're behind a hill. Meanwhile they'll ignore a fire but may stop chasing you if you drop a torch in its path.

On 3/4/2020 at 9:57 PM, kristaok said:

It's not just sight though, wolves can also smell... so immersion breaking in my opinion would be the opposite from what you think. Meaning I would find it immersion breaking for a wolf to stop chasing me just because they can't see me, when in reality they can still smell me. Does that make any sense??? I hope so.

So yea... try to think of it that way, there's more senses at play here than just sight.

You're right from a realism point of view for sure. But in the game's premise the sole act of crouching tend to triumph the wolf's ability to smell you, pretty much. The long dark wolf above voyager difficulty is a unique breed, I think it makes it difficult for us to expect any certain behavior from wolves when most of the interactions we get with them are very un-wolf-like.  

Edited March 7, 2020 by manolitode
spelling

[dahemac]

Timberwolves ad interesting play variety to the game, but the mechanic is broken, or at least incomplete. There is another thread on this HERE.

Edited March 8, 2020 by dahemac

[Oywin]

On 3/8/2020 at 6:38 AM, dahemac said:

Timberwolves ad interesting play variety to the game, but the mechanic is broken, or at least incomplete. There is another thread on this HERE.

Ah, nice. Thanks! Somehow I missed that topic or I'd not make this one.

[ManicManiac]

On 3/5/2020 at 1:27 AM, kristaok said:

It's not just sight though, wolves can also smell...

Right on!  I think it's very reasonable to expect that a wolf in this game would still be aware of our presence while we're still within it's "detection radius."  I think that's pretty much how it functions now, the only difference with the timber wolves being they don't "forget about you."  Which I think was a really nice touch. 

 

On 3/7/2020 at 3:42 PM, Oywin said:

I suspected someone would bring smell up.  And sure, they probably would still smell me in reality. But I suspect that's not the actual game logic reason why they're stuck in chase mode in this case.

Wait what?   Um, I think it does factor in... I mean that's the whole point of the "scent" mechanic (as it increased your "detectable range" and even "changes shape" as a result of interactions with the "wind").

I think that the way wolves and timber wolves work now is well done (especially now that pathing has been improved).

[Addendum]
Also if you did read over the thread that was linked about the timber wolves, you'll see my posts about why I think the timber wolves (specifically) are good as is.

Edited March 9, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Oywin]

4 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

Wait what?   Um, I think it does factor in... I mean that's the whole point of the "scent" mechanic (as it increased your "detectable range" and even "changes shape" as a result of interactions with the "wind").

Here's what I mean: once a wolf gets close enough to enter chase (or probably more correctly: attack) mode, smell is no longer a factor. Nor is sight or anything else. It will forever loop this behaviour until it actually gets close enough to attack (I.e. I jump down to it and let it attack me) or I kill it. An example of this is a moose that once started charging at me because I unknowingly entered it's aggro range from the other side of a cliff. I heard it get angry, then start charging, but it had to a whole lot of path finding before it got to me. By that time I had managed to lock a fence door between me and it, leaving it in a state of perpetual charge mode, just running into the fence, pointed at me. I just eventually left it there not knowing if it ever stopped.

Listen, I get how scent works. It makes wolves that haven't fully detected you (actually seen you) walk in your direction, especially if the wind is blowing your scent towards them. But as far as I can tell, that's all it does. Once they are engaged, and especially in attack mode, they have no way of backing down except win or die. Which gets problematic when they can't reach you, because they look and sound ridiculous, and they'll keep doing it literally forever.

[Tactical Ex]

9 hours ago, Oywin said:

Here's what I mean: once a wolf gets close enough to enter chase (or probably more correctly: attack) mode, smell is no longer a factor. Nor is sight or anything else. It will forever loop this behaviour until it actually gets close enough to attack [...]

Once they are engaged, and especially in attack mode, they have no way of backing down except win or die. Which gets problematic when they can't reach you, because they look and sound ridiculous, and they'll keep doing it literally forever.

Are you talking about timber-wolves exclusively? It is totally possible to get a regular wolf to back down. I have engaged regular wolves (pursuing after sighting but not attacking) and lost them in the woods through a combination of tactics including breaking line of sight and broadening the distance between me and the wolf. They have given up when not reaching me in attack mode as well. When timber-wolves are alone they behave similarly too but this is harder to make work. I have been a bit annoyed with timber-wolves not dis-engaging without transitioning "scenes" as you mentioned. 16 hours of barking at the bottom of a lookout tower was a bit annoying but I'm conflicted on if it is immersion breaking or not.   

 

Addendum: The reason I'm not considering it immersion breaking is because I have 2 dogs who hunt in my backyard all the time. If they chase a lizard into the banana tree they will circle and bark at it for hours if I leave them there ... they won't stop ... at all ... and it annoys me to no end because I MUST go get them for the sake of my sanity. 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Tactical Ex
addendum

[ManicManiac]

 All this talk about "immersion" ...  It reminds me of something I discussed a little while back, so I'll just echo it here (updated and modified where appropriate):

On 10/7/2019 at 5:34 AM, ManicManiac said:

What I'm going to talk about is in general terms... that is to say I am not speaking about any one in particular or any specific examples.  So please bear in mind that as I write my view on the subject folks brought up, I'm not referring to the original post or any subsequent posts in particular, so much as I'm talking about the idea itself.

My thoughts on the subject of "immersion breakers:"

Honestly I think most of the talk about things breaking immersion in this day and age falls into the category of "nit picking."  It's an easy way for folks to find fault with literally anything... we see this type of thing in all media.  Take Cinema Sins for example: if you think about any movie hard enough, you are going to find tropes and irrational leaps of logic, and even sometimes no logic at all.  My point in relation to games and things that some folks say "break immersion," is that most of the time it's pretty silly... I would say there is never a time when you are not aware you are playing a video game.  So in my opinion it's most often a lame thing to complain about because just like a movie... sometimes a video game just needs to "video game."

Sometimes this kind or criticism really does have merit... I'm not saying it doesn't.  I am saying that it's become a lightning rod for those who just want to find things to complain about.  So they use it as a convenient cop-out when they just want to dump on something but don't really have anything to complain about.  Let's face it, people nowadays are never satisfied.  If it's not one thing, it would be something else.

For me there is nothing about this game that I consider to be "immersion breaking."  I say that because, I choose to accept the world of The Long Dark for what it is... and if you treat any video game and it's constraints as part of that "reality," then it's not really an issue.  The story, lore, atmosphere, aesthetics, and characterization (human and non-human) to me are far more important things to talk about when the topic of immersion comes up.

If we can really throw ourselves into the world we are playing in, then those little things that can seem limiting are not really a problem, it's just a part of the reality you are living in.  I think that immersion has as much to do with us as a participant, as the game does as a means of conveyance.  I also think that too many folks nowadays use anything they don't like about anything and cry "immersion breaking."

Seems to me that the meaning of the term is often a little confused.  Lack of frustration is not the same thing as immersion.  I think a lot of people erroneously think immersion means "enjoyment" and that's not the case.  I suspect that most people using the word don't know what it means.

im·mer·sion
/iˈmərZHən,iˈmərSHən/
Noun: deep mental involvement
 

I couldn't stop thinking about that scene from The Princess Bride as I write this... so:

 

  

 

[ManicManiac]

17 hours ago, Oywin said:

...Once they are engaged, and especially in attack mode, they have no way of backing down except win or die. Which gets problematic when they can't reach you, because they look and sound ridiculous, and they'll keep doing it literally forever.

Okay, it seems like you are focusing on Timber Wolves now.  That's a bit of a different subject, so I'll switch gears.  I mentioned before about the thread that was linked in one of the other replies to your thread.  In that thread, I discuss that very aspect you bring up.  Before I'll get into that, I'll say that while I can understand that you might find it problematic on a personal level...  I think that if folks take the time to learn how to handle them, it's really not much of a problem at all.  Since I did already cover this, I will just echo what I mentioned in the thread that was referenced:

On 1/22/2020 at 4:34 AM, ManicManiac said:

I disagree, I don't think there is anything to fix.

The fact that they are tenacious and will stay on your trail until dealt with is one of the things I really like about them.  It requires us to both be more careful and a need to come prepared.  I say leave it as it is.

Their tenacity is what makes them such a wonderful and genuine threat...

 

On 2/5/2020 at 12:05 AM, ManicManiac said:

I think it puts a needed focus on either being more careful to not be detected in the first place, or being suitably prepared to take them on; as opposed to trying to just hide out until they go away.

I find these kind of "curve balls" in game play to be really interesting challenges, and I like having to learn to overcome/adapt to them.  

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by ManicManiac

[Oywin]

10 hours ago, Tactical Ex said:

Are you talking about timber-wolves exclusively? It is totally possible to get a regular wolf to back down. I have engaged regular wolves (pursuing after sighting but not attacking) and lost them in the woods through a combination of tactics including breaking line of sight and broadening the distance between me and the wolf. They have given up when not reaching me in attack mode as well. When timber-wolves are alone they behave similarly too but this is harder to make work. I have been a bit annoyed with timber-wolves not dis-engaging without transitioning "scenes" as you mentioned. 16 hours of barking at the bottom of a lookout tower was a bit annoying but I'm conflicted on if it is immersion breaking or not.   

 

Addendum: The reason I'm not considering it immersion breaking is because I have 2 dogs who hunt in my backyard all the time. If they chase a lizard into the banana tree they will circle and bark at it for hours if I leave them there ... they won't stop ... at all ... and it annoys me to no end because I MUST go get them for the sake of my sanity. 

No, this concerns both types of wolves. And really, any kind of animal that can attack.
I guess there's a distinction between chase and attack mode when I think about it, because I have also outrun wolves as long as they never get closer than say 5 - 10 meters, which seems to be where they enter attack mode. Sorry for that confusion. Basically, it seems to be two "hostile" modes for wolves: Chasing and Attack.  Chasing can be avoided by broadening the distance, but Attack mode cannot be interrupted as far as I can tell. Not with flares or guns. It's kill or be pounced. I've wounded wolves with bullets and they're still forced to perform the attack, and it's not before they've pounced on me that they'll be instantly scared off because their morale is actually low. And that creates situations where you have a tireless insane wolf beneath you that you cannot scare off or kill because it is stuck in your exact position, minus height.

3 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

 All this talk about "immersion" ...  It reminds me of something I discussed a little while back, so I'll just echo it here (updated and modified where appropriate):

  

 

Sure, we may call it nitpicky. And I'm sure most of people that mention these nitpicky things are pretty happy with the game. That doesn't mean they shouldn't mention improvements they'd like to see. This is after all a wish list forum isn't it?

2 hours ago, ManicManiac said:

Okay, it seems like you are focusing on Timber Wolves now.  That's a bit of a different subject, so I'll switch gears.  I mentioned before about the thread that was linked in one of the other replies to your thread.  In that thread, I discuss that very aspect you bring up.  Before I'll get into that, I'll say that while I can understand that you might find it problematic on a personal level...  I think that if folks take the time to learn how to handle them, it's really not much of a problem at all.  Since I did already cover this, I will just echo what I mentioned in the thread that was referenced:

 

 

...I totally agree. One should be suitably prepared to meet a group of timber-wolves, and they bring a refreshing challenge to the game. I'll try to avoid them and if I can't that's on me. I like timber-wolves. I realise that my first post must come off very differently that I thought it would and I see why now, but kind of assumed more people would understand what I meant when I wrote it. So I'll try to re-iterate:
My point is not that timber-wolves are too hard or anything. It's that they (and all kind of aggressive animals) can get stuck in an attack stance they can't break out of before they reach me or they die. While in this attack stance they get stuck in a running animation and will growl forever, despite not actually moving off the spot. They will also know where you are at all times despite there being a wall, floor or even a whole building between you, blocking the view.

However! If the wolves never get close enough to enter attack mode, and remain in chase mode, they will indeed break off if I outrun them or they can't reach nor see me anymore.

I guess I should perhaps update my original post to clear this up a bit. Edit: It seems I cannot update previous reply after a certain point.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Oywin

[ManicManiac]

@Oywin

Yes it's a wish list, but people shouldn't be surprised if other people comment on the ideas put forth.  For the specific post you were referencing, I was actually discussing a point of terminology more than making comment on the idea itself.

Regardless of that, I do weigh in on wish list ideas as well because I think it's always good to have other points of view on any subject.

I've mentioned all this before in another conversations so I will just echo it here:

On 12/21/2019 at 6:21 AM, ManicManiac said:

On 12/21/2019 at 6:02 AM, dbmurph22 said:

Seems you're exceedingly pleased with the current aspect of the game to the exclusion of any additions or changes.  I love it too - I just wonder what about the Wishlist subforum appeals to you.

I love the discussion of ideas and the exchange of points of view.

I've made posts in the wishlist subforum in the past as well, but the longer I played the more I came to understand (or at least by my estimations) and respect why things were implemented the way they were.

To be clear, there have been ideas here that I have very much supported... the other's I have just weighed in on with my perspective.  I think it's equally valuable for any developer to hear from both sides of an idea or opinion.  I seem to have a much different perspective on the game as a whole than a lot of people on the forum.  Which I suppose has caused some to assume I'm against changing anything... which is not the case.  In the end, I trust Hinterland to do what's best for their game... so if they see fit to change things, then great.  I've not objected to anything they've changed, even though I've not always agreed with the changes... I've accepted them and took the challenge of adapting my playstyle to overcome those decisions I initially didn't like.  I didn't fuss about it... I chose to embrace it, and as a result I've become much happier with the game.

I do feel (that at least to some degree) I understand and can appreciate the choices that Hinterland has made with their game... and I think a voice expressing that is not harmful, but provides a counter balance to all the voices who do what to change things based on their own personal preferences.

I don't condemn other's for their opinions, I just don't always agree with them because I try to understand and appreciate why Hinterland makes the choices they do.  To me player choice is more powerful at adjusting the experience than wanting to change the game itself.

I think the game gives players far more agency than most realize (at least in survival)

On 2/25/2020 at 3:39 AM, ManicManiac said:

I'm not out to discount your opinions or points of view.  They are your opinions and from that perspective they're all valid.  I don't want the game to stagnate either, but I don't always agree with proposed ideas or the reasons behind why some of those ideas are being put forth.  So far, every change that's been implemented... I've found good reasons to accept and appreciate them.  So it's not that I'm against change, but I do like to offer that different point of view when the subjects arise from within the fan base.

On 2/20/2020 at 3:16 AM, ManicManiac said:

I'm not really out to be disagreeable just for the sake of it... but it seems I do have a different perspective from a lot of folks when it comes to how I see this game.

Edited March 10, 2020 by ManicManiac