Gun/Bow Range

[The_Materialist]

A Quick question since I haven't been able to find the answer. I have heared (and very early in the game noticed) that there is a range on the gun. Which means there is a radius beyond that the gun doesn't do anything wether you would have hit or not. What is this range? Does it effect you when hunting? For example in perspective to the grain of the iron sights how big/small can a deer be so that you still are able to hit it? The bow is another story since it has drop. Beeing able to hit things further away will be much more difficult, but is it possible to hit something at extreme range? For example balistic shots at 45° killing something? Has anybody sienced this?

Edit1 :

 

longest shot I've pulled of so far with the bow.

Edit 2:

The effectiveness of the weapons (bow and rifle) seems to be limited much more by the ability to reliably hit something at range rather then by their actual range. As you see above, there is the possibility to hit a deer across the trappers cabin valley and crit him. I have shot deer at similar ranges with the rifle although it becomes increasingly difficult to actually hit the target. For usual gameplay this is rather unimportant since one usually wants to get as close as possible to the target and then shoot it from point blank range in order to maximize the crit chance and in order not to waste any ammo or arrow durability/ not to loose arrows.

 

The bow range according to @KinoUnko is well beyond 150 meters and the gun range is similarly at about 180 meters. Usually one does not hit at those ranges because of sway. Granted that a standing shot at this range is pretty uncommon IRL and therefore pretty realistic. At ranges beyond 100 meters marksmen usually lie down in order to hit something.

Edit 3:

Findings of further investigations for the gun shows:

- A rifle round can hit a bear even outside the radius where the bear is able to hear where you are shooting from. Several times I could hit a bear which wasn't aware of me from a greater distance.

-You can reliable "hit" a bear beyond the rifles range. There is a blood splatter but no fucks given from the bear side. He just keeps on walking. All other animals are basically "unhitable" before the gun range is reached. So if you can reliabely hit it, it is most probably going to register as a hit. If you want a rough estimate of how big the gun range is without haveing the debug mode: If you exit from trappers cabin you see a small "valley" with the shed at your left and a fallen tree in the distance. It is a relatively flat area. And in the distance there is the hill behind which you will find max's last stand. The distance between the trappers cabin and the hill is the gun range. As you see it is quite large but not infinite. I hope they increase it a little so you could snipe some bears at larger distances =)

[Mroz4k]

It is difficult to say because it is very difficult to measure any distance in TLD. Since it is all white snow. But yes, there is a range on the gun.

It is not really small, but if you had plans to shoot wildlife from very far away, don't bother - for starters, the "loud noise" that gun makes has far longer radius then the gun shooting range, so there really is not much of a point to shooting from afar unless you plan to shoot the animal twice - because if you hit bear and it doesn't die, regardless where you are, it will charge on your location, and fast - putting distance in between you two might give you enough time to shoot once more. You can still hit a bear when it is just a small enough to completely fit into your "iron sights circle" - but anything smaller than that, you will likely be out of range. In general, it is recommended to shoot from short distance, or even point blank range, because gun has high critical chance, so if you manage to hit specific body part, it will usually take the animal down instantly.

But I admit I dont have much experience with rifle, I dont think I have shot anything since before Cartographer. I always rely on bows.

I always separated weapons by their area of effect: the distress pistol was point blank range, bow was short-to-medium weapon, but a silent one so if you learned the curves it makes, it becomes possible to shoot wildlife from medium-far range, and gun was medium-to-far weapon which makes lots of noise, and has multiple rounds inside, which makes it perfect for tackling on multiple enemies.

[Mroz4k]

Oh, totally forgot about the bow range.

Yea, well, naturally, arrows have an arc to them, and if you wish to shoot bows efficiently, you really need to shoot at the short or medium range. Medium range is usually just enough for animals to notice you if you are not carrying smelly objects and have the wind in your face, not in your back which would spread it directly onto the animal.

Even on that medium range, arc plays a part - you need to shoot some two crosses above the target to hit it.

Again, I highly recommend shooting bows at point blank or short distance - in this case, the arc does not play any part - just scare the animal away, and shoot it as its running towards you. Now, important is to remember that arrows don't travel instantly, so if you are shooting at a moving target and its moving from side towards you, you need to shoot a little bit ahead of them to hit it.

Only difference is bowhunting bears. In my opinion, if you don't want to get mauled, you need to shoot the bear from far range - to do that, you need to arc the bowshots to land where the bear is - don't bother with trying to hit specific parts because it is pretty difficult to hit the bear in general. I would usually shoot at bears from a hill, being partially hidden behind it, and even from a high place, you still need to shoot some 5-7 cross sights over the bear to hit it. I recommend taking plenty of arrows with you because it takes some time to land a hit. But, if you are successful, the bear will be bleeding and won't know where the shot came from, so it will start running in panic everywhere. Crouch and evacuate the area.

Once you get the bow mastery, it becomes possible to shoot a bear from crouching from medium-to-long range and not be noticed. Even though the bow is a silent weapon, it does make some slight noise - consider that when choosing range from where to shoot. Shooting bear from crouching from the medium range will still likely mean it will charge you.

[Prestermatt]

I've seen @GELtazmake some pretty impressive long range shots with the bow.  There's a video of him practicing at the PV target.

As for the rifle, I'm not good with distance in the game, but I remember people discussing recently that the rifle range had been increased.  So if you get information from older threads, it may no longer be correct.

[The_Materialist]

5 hours ago, Mroz4k said:

Oh, totally forgot about the bow range.

Yea, well, naturally, arrows have an arc to them, and if you wish to shoot bows efficiently, you really need to shoot at the short or medium range. Medium range is usually just enough for animals to notice you if you are not carrying smelly objects and have the wind in your face, not in your back which would spread it directly onto the animal.

Even on that medium range, arc plays a part - you need to shoot some two crosses above the target to hit it.

Again, I highly recommend shooting bows at point blank or short distance - in this case, the arc does not play any part - just scare the animal away, and shoot it as its running towards you. Now, important is to remember that arrows don't travel instantly, so if you are shooting at a moving target and its moving from side towards you, you need to shoot a little bit ahead of them to hit it.

Only difference is bowhunting bears. In my opinion, if you don't want to get mauled, you need to shoot the bear from far range - to do that, you need to arc the bowshots to land where the bear is - don't bother with trying to hit specific parts because it is pretty difficult to hit the bear in general. I would usually shoot at bears from a hill, being partially hidden behind it, and even from a high place, you still need to shoot some 5-7 cross sights over the bear to hit it. I recommend taking plenty of arrows with you because it takes some time to land a hit. But, if you are successful, the bear will be bleeding and won't know where the shot came from, so it will start running in panic everywhere. Crouch and evacuate the area.

Once you get the bow mastery, it becomes possible to shoot a bear from crouching from medium-to-long range and not be noticed. Even though the bow is a silent weapon, it does make some slight noise - consider that when choosing range from where to shoot. Shooting bear from crouching from the medium range will still likely mean it will charge you.

regarding Bear hunting: I do also prefer the bow as my weapon of choice. More ammo, silent, lighter to name only a few reasons. But to be honest the gun looks so cool and the animations on it are very cool too. So I consider it to use for bear hunting. Since I have only one place where I have succesfully hunted multiple bears, I know exactly how my strategy is. IRL I would get into a tree, wait for the bear to come by or bait him and then shoot him from pretty close. So thats what I do in TLD too. I have a fallen tree I can climb but the bear can't and he spawns very close to it. You probably know the palce it is right in sight of trappers cabin. My home <3 you just gotta love the place. Then I will bait the bear with smell or stones into vicinity and then try to shoot it with the bow. I aim for the head but usually I hit belly, shoulder or somethimes even the legs. He tries to charge me but when he unsuccesfully charges for some time he will flee.

 

So regarding the gun for bear hunting. As I heared it is totally unadvisable to use it for bear hunting when in range of the bear. So not on a fallen tree or rock the bear cannot reach. But how is the crit-hit chance when aiming for the head? I used to hunt bears like I did with all game: crouch, position myself such that it walks perfectly towards me and then shoot it right into the face at closest possible range.. Well until I died. I was lucky back then that the first bear i shot was a crit at the first shot so I didn't get why the second mauled me and I died from a wolf attack following it. So for wolves and deer it is a garantueed one shot kill if hitting the head. But how likely do bears drop if properly hit in the head with a gun?

[KinoUnko]

you can measure bow range using F8 debug screen cap. it shows map coordinates of your position, easy to do at the PV range. Unity internal unit is metric, in meters, so you might have to do some light conversion if you're accustomed to imperial units. gun is harder since there's no way to mark where bullet impacted.

[Riotintheair]

If you can hit an animal you can use it's body or blood splatter to estimate the distance, but obviously it's a lot tougher than with a bow. 

Based on the ballistic performance for the standard .303 round IRL, the gun only has a relatively flat trajectory to about 140 yards, so one might expect, if the bullet drop isn't modeled, which I believe it isn't, that the rifle would be ineffective beyond maybe 150 meters (IRL you certainly won't hit the target by centering the sight on it at that range with a .303). Not that any of that matters for game mechanics of course - I was interested and kind of wandered down the rabbit hole!

[KinoUnko]

doing some tests, bow/arrow has effective range of about 40~45m when fired horizontal. ~2m drop at over 60m. gonna do some more once I craft another bow and see what else I can figure out. will update this post later.

White dot on bulls eye as close as I can get it, fired 3 arrows without moving point of aim, I use a track ball so the point of aim remains consistent. Distance should be within +/- 3% 
These are made at Bow Skill 5. almost 0 spread. Remembering at my last trip to the range, I'm around 2, maybe 1.5... guess I won't expect to live long if I had to rely on bow and arrow.

From ~60m, aiming directly at bullseye, arrows fall short of the target by ~9.7m

 

Longer shots, much more difficult. Aim points are marked in Red on left hand side. Took progressively more tries to figure out the right aim point for each distance to target.

[JAFO]

22 hours ago, Prestermatt said:

I remember people discussing recently that the rifle range had been increased.

The maximum range of the rifle used to be 100 map-grid units. Since Wintermute was released, the range of the rifle has been extended, and the current record distance for a shot stands at 182 map units. See this thread for the details.

 

11 hours ago, KinoUnko said:

doing some tests, bow/arrow has effective range of about 40~45m when fired horizontal

How are you calculating your distances? If you see the thread I've linked above, you'll see there is reason to believe that map-grid units do not have a 1:1 correspondence with metres. Best estimates put it at around 0.7m per map unit.

[KinoUnko]

F8 debug screen gives your XYZ coordinates, then little basic geometry gives distances between two X,Z points in the unity scene world space. Unity uses Y-Up coordinate system. The area around the barn is fairly flat, about 1m elevation change over 100m at the most. I don't know how one would see the map grid. It would be really bizarre if Hinterland set 1.0 Unity unit to 0.7m instead of 1.0m. That's not possible to change far as I know. Using a global 0.7 scale factor would add a lot of unnecessary complexity given Unity assumes 1unit:1m for a lot of internal calculations.

If game objects are scaled different from realworld objects that would account for the 0,7 factor, but that doesn't alter Unity's internal scale of of 1m per unit. What F8 gives you should be the internal coordinate system, not how the game objects are scaled. It could be the game objects are scaled smaller to increase the perceived size of the maps.

182m for plain iron sight is damn good far as I'm concerned. On a good day I can manage 12"~16" group at 100yd with a peep sight. that's probably not enough to reliably hit a bear at 200yd

[Prestermatt]

2 hours ago, JAFO said:

The maximum range of the rifle used to be 100 map-grid units. Since Wintermute was released, the range of the rifle has been extended, and the current record distance for a shot stands at 182 map units. See this thread for the details.

Thanks, @JAFO.  The sad thing is that I'm a university librarian.  My job is to help people find the information they need for research.  And here I'm just like, "yeah, there may be something about that somewhere,.." 

[Tomcat2]

15 hours ago, KinoUnko said:

doing some tests, bow/arrow has effective range of about 40~45m when fired horizontal. ~2m drop at over 60m. gonna do some more once I craft another bow and see what else I can figure out. will update this post later.

White dot on bulls eye as close as I can get it, fired 3 arrows without moving point of aim, I use a track ball so the point of aim remains consistent. Distance should be within +/- 3% 
These are made at Bow Skill 5. almost 0 spread. Remembering at my last trip to the range, I'm around 2, maybe 1.5... guess I won't expect to live long if I had to rely on bow and arrow.

From ~60m, aiming directly at bullseye, arrows fall short of the target by ~9.7m

 

Longer shots, much more difficult. Aim points are marked in Red on left hand side. Took progressively more tries to figure out the right aim point for each distance to target.

Once I managed to make a master kill with a bow on the first level. Comparing to these pictures, I guess it must have been about those 160m of distance. I was just trying to hit a deer for a fun, aiming high into the air over it and the arrow landed precisely on it, killing it on spot  I have never managed to do it again since then...

[KinoUnko]

These are my measurement points. left two columns are X,Z coordinate given by F8.  #0 is the coordinate standing directly in front of the target. gray numbers are X,Z Deltas from the target. DisToTgt is calculated distance from each point to the target.

I noticed there seems to be effect on the arrow from wind, but it's time consuming to wait for the right wind to come around and what little test I did in windy/blizzard conditions wasn't conclusive one way or the other.

Little more number crunching... b is horizontal distance from eye height (~1.75m) to bulls eye. a is height for point of aim above eye level. c is calculated distance from eye to point of aim. A is angle formed by b and c, the angle of aim above eye level, horizontal. This is less accurate than simple distance measurements using F8, but should be accurate enough to prove some sense of bow/arrow in game. 

There is some discrepancy between 92m and 111m, I think it's due to slight elevation in the terrain, standing on a ridge of snow on the edge of road. so the actual angle of aim is still higher at 111m than 92m as one would expect.

 

[JAFO]

16 hours ago, KinoUnko said:

I don't know how one would see the map grid.

"Map grid" is just another term (used by selfless) for the internal coordinates.

 

16 hours ago, KinoUnko said:

It would be really bizarre if Hinterland set 1.0 Unity unit to 0.7m instead of 1.0m. That's not possible to change far as I know. Using a global 0.7 scale factor would add a lot of unnecessary complexity given Unity assumes 1unit:1m for a lot of internal calculations.

If game objects are scaled different from realworld objects that would account for the 0,7 factor, but that doesn't alter Unity's internal scale of of 1m per unit. What F8 gives you should be the internal coordinate system, not how the game objects are scaled. It could be the game objects are scaled smaller to increase the perceived size of the maps.

Very good point.. and one I think I'll make to the Longest rifle shot & hit thread, unless you'd rather do it yourself..

Although you have one bit backwards.. the objects are actually scaled larger, not smaller. Probably so they appear a reasonable size to the player. Most 3D games need to do this, otherwise things tend to look smaller than we expect, and appear too small at reasonable distances. (I'm involved with development of another game, where this has generated considerable argument over the years) The simplest way to explain it is that all 3D games by their very nature impose something of a 'fish-eye lens' view of the world. It might be correctable by setting a very narrow Field of View, but that would make a game unplayable.

[KinoUnko]

7 hours ago, JAFO said:

Although you have one bit backwards.. the objects are actually scaled larger, not smaller. Probably so they appear a reasonable size to the player. Most 3D games need to do this, otherwise things tend to look smaller than we expect, and appear too small at reasonable distances. (I'm involved with development of another game, where this has generated considerable argument over the years) The simplest way to explain it is that all 3D games by their very nature impose something of a 'fish-eye lens' view of the world. It might be correctable by setting a very narrow Field of View, but that would make a game unplayable.

You're right. linear projection in games would affect the apparent size of things in game. Another contributor might be NLIPS, game objects don't scale in direct relation to view distance to keep object readable from longer distances. Another good reason for F8 to give internal coordinates is it's meant for debugging... why make it harder by adding a conversion when one would want to go to the location given by the screencap as quickly as possible?

[KinoUnko]

some more shooting and running around and number crunching.

• Bow/Arrow range peaks around 275m.
• Probably some veolcity decay built-in. I don't know for sure, or how much exactly
• Not affected by wind
• Bow length ~1.3m; Arrow length ~0.8m; I figure draw length would be around 0.7m 
• Arrow speed is between ~60m/s if calculate by shooting straight up; or ~70 if  calculate by arrow drop and displacement. assuming 1g and 1.75m eye height.

The angles are very very rough estimates. I assumed the target is 2m high, that puts the tree immediately behind it at about 20~25m. standing from about 35m to the tree base, I aimed horizontal level with bullseye, then up every 2~4m until I get to the top of the tree. Visual references for each shot https://imgur.com/a/LqBYP