Stone&Flint knapping

[ElvisHunter]

I want to throw my 2cents in here. I've heard the "Wtf would a bush pilot know how to X for?" in the forums over and over and this is my rebuttal to all those arguments. 

I may not know anything about the intricacies of bow making, iron working, flint knapping, ancient fire building technique and so on BUT i know the exist. I know their basics and I am quick learner. None of these sort of handicrafts require a master craftsman to hand down any hidden secrets. Trial and error would produce workable results in fairly short order. 

With this in mind I have no problem using some arbitrary value as a starting point (50% chance to start a fire for instance) for ANY activity said bush pilot knows exists. To the extent that the is balanced and stays with the spirit/theme of the game itself. 

[Fuarian]

I like the idea of arrowheads as metalworking is a bit tedious. Spear maybe not. I don't know if I want that. I think crafting should have it's own skillbooks with not only different high level skillbooks but different type of skillbooks. Ex: Hideworking, Stoneworking etc...

[cekivi]

3 hours ago, ElvisHunter said:

With this in mind I have no problem using some arbitrary value as a starting point (50% chance to start a fire for instance) for ANY activity said bush pilot knows exists. To the extent that the is balanced and stays with the spirit/theme of the game itself. 

As a rebuttal to that a bush pilot also knows that aeronautical engineers exist but is likely not going to design their own plane (and have it fly) anytime soon

[Wastelander]

10 hours ago, cekivi said:

As a rebuttal to that a bush pilot also knows that aeronautical engineers exist but is likely not going to design their own plane (and have it fly) anytime soon

Well, we'll never know considering the lack of materials  

13 hours ago, ElvisHunter said:

With this in mind I have no problem using some arbitrary value as a starting point (50% chance to start a fire for instance) for ANY activity said bush pilot knows exists. To the extent that the is balanced and stays with the spirit/theme of the game itself. 

This is an interesting idea actually. Humans adapt pretty quickly, at least the ones that live to tell the tale. But I'll stand by what I said before: Simple, jury-rigged improvised tools from sharp stones, sticks, chewing gum and hope yes, intricate stone tools like we're some kind of Aztec craftsman no. (Although I DO dig the idea of braining a bear with a macuahuitl)

[Hobbesyb]

Well. Why are you making this topic so complex ? Of course, a pilot doesn't necessary knows how to craft tools from stone. But this is the case for everything in the game : the pilot isn't supposed to know how to start a fire outdoors, craft a bow and arrows, cure animal skin then sew it into boots. The pilot isn't supposed to know how to fish and how to hunt. The pilot isn't supposed to know the rules of good-behavior in order to survive outdoors.
The pilot isn't supposed to know how to heal him-herself when beaten by a bear, and even less-likely, to know what plants give medication for what affliction.

At the beggining of the game, the pilot isn't supposed to know anything the game offers to make and do.
But this is the very principle of the game !
The character has got skill levels : everything is hard from the start, and he/she has to learn everything !
Fire-starting, wound healing, sewing and crafting lead to very poor results at first, then it improves.

Moreover, HL recently added learning books in the game to let the character learn all these techniques faster than by him/herself.

So. Why would stonecrating be different ? Yes, it may be a hard technique. But they all are ! They all need to be learned : this is what the game is made of.

Specifically for stone crafting, let us say that the first attempts will lead to injuries, broken stones or very poorly sharp (and efficient) tools. That's all

[ElvisHunter]

16 hours ago, cekivi said:

As a rebuttal to that a bush pilot also knows that aeronautical engineers exist but is likely not going to design their own plane (and have it fly) anytime soon

I don't feel that qualifies under my "balanced and in spirit" caveat. But point taken 

[cekivi]

8 hours ago, Hobbesyb said:

Well. Why are you making this topic so complex ? Of course, a pilot doesn't necessary knows how to craft tools from stone. But this is the case for everything in the game : the pilot isn't supposed to know how to start a fire outdoors, craft a bow and arrows, cure animal skin then sew it into boots. The pilot isn't supposed to know how to fish and how to hunt. The pilot isn't supposed to know the rules of good-behavior in order to survive outdoors.

You'd be surprised. Due to the nature and risks of the job most bush pilots have some basic survival training. At least enough that they can start a fire, maintain equipment, and fish/hunt. But you're right that anything more advanced than that would vary a lot from person to person.

[elloco999]

On 22-8-2016 at 7:22 PM, dbldrew said:

what? how did you get me comparing common unrealistic game features means i want to add flint knapping to a fps?

It makes about as much sense as saying I want flint knapping in TLD because FPS's and fantasy games have unrealistic features as well. TLD is neither a FPS or a fantasy game.

Again, I'm not against adding flint knapping to TLD. If I don't have any other means of procuring tools I need, I would try making them out of stone as well. But I would not expect a high chance of success. Just finding the right type of stone would be very hard for me, then it will be a long process of trial and error on how to get the shape I want. Then I need to sharpen the edges I want sharp and blunt the edges I don't want sharp (if applicable) and do so without breaking the thing or ruining the shape.

So if flint knapping is introduced in TLD, I'd like it to be a skill that produces very little result at first and takes a long time to build to a level where you can just pound out an arrow head in an hour.

On 22-8-2016 at 8:55 PM, ElvisHunter said:

I want to throw my 2cents in here. I've heard the "Wtf would a bush pilot know how to X for?" in the forums over and over and this is my rebuttal to all those arguments. 

I may not know anything about the intricacies of bow making, iron working, flint knapping, ancient fire building technique and so on BUT i know the exist. I know their basics and I am quick learner. None of these sort of handicrafts require a master craftsman to hand down any hidden secrets. Trial and error would produce workable results in fairly short order. 

With this in mind I have no problem using some arbitrary value as a starting point (50% chance to start a fire for instance) for ANY activity said bush pilot knows exists. To the extent that the is balanced and stays with the spirit/theme of the game itself. 

 

On 23-8-2016 at 0:21 PM, Hobbesyb said:

Well. Why are you making this topic so complex ? Of course, a pilot doesn't necessary knows how to craft tools from stone. But this is the case for everything in the game : the pilot isn't supposed to know how to start a fire outdoors, craft a bow and arrows, cure animal skin then sew it into boots. The pilot isn't supposed to know how to fish and how to hunt. The pilot isn't supposed to know the rules of good-behavior in order to survive outdoors.
The pilot isn't supposed to know how to heal him-herself when beaten by a bear, and even less-likely, to know what plants give medication for what affliction.

At the beggining of the game, the pilot isn't supposed to know anything the game offers to make and do.
But this is the very principle of the game !
The character has got skill levels : everything is hard from the start, and he/she has to learn everything !
Fire-starting, wound healing, sewing and crafting lead to very poor results at first, then it improves.

Moreover, HL recently added learning books in the game to let the character learn all these techniques faster than by him/herself.

So. Why would stonecrating be different ? Yes, it may be a hard technique. But they all are ! They all need to be learned : this is what the game is made of.

Specifically for stone crafting, let us say that the first attempts will lead to injuries, broken stones or very poorly sharp (and efficient) tools. That's all

I agree that if you know about something you are probably able, given enough time, through a process of trial and error to come to workable results. But some skills are harder to learn than others.

Everybody knows the basics of starting a fire. You take some fuel in the form of wood and an ignition device (lighter/ matches) and try to ignite the fuel. If this is all you know about starting a fire, you will first try to light a log using a match. You will learn that a match doesn't burn long enough to light the log. So you look for something that will light using a match and burns longer. So you add some newspaper and light that. And after a short while the newspaper burns out and the only result is a slightly blackened log. You add more newspaper and maybe you even realize the log is too large to catch fire easily so you add some smaller sticks. And now you do succeed.

Figuring out how to light a fire even if you only know fires can be lit using matches will maybe take a few hours if materials are at hand, longer if you need to travel to find the right materials.

But skills like flint knapping and yes, crafting a hunting bow, are more difficult and won't produce something useful that quickly. Sure, if you find some flint or other knappable material and you hit it with a rock you will in no time be able to create sharp edges. But that's not the same as a knife, not to mention an arrowpoint.

So I'm not against adding these skills to TLD per se, but I would like to see them implemented as skills that are harder and therefor take more time to learn. And books might have a bigger impact on these skills as reading about knapping techniques will increase your skill much faster than using trial and error.

But how hard a skill is or how realistic it is are not the only concerns when deciding whether or not it should be added to the game. Much more important is how much it would add to the game (in terms of gameplay, fun and usefulness) and how much it costs (development time not spend on other things and such). And if flint knapping is such a hard skill to learn I don't see it adding much to the game considering the alternatives we already have. Only for those players who play such long games that alternatives have run out would it be needed to learn and use this skill. And we're talking thousands of days here. And I don't think it would be trivial to add to the game so I doubt the gains outweigh the costs. But that's a decision Hinterland will have to make.

[Hobbesyb]

Yes, stone crafting ability should be learned after a long time, in order to be used in very long games, when every tools from civilisation are gone.

[cekivi]

54 minutes ago, Hobbesyb said:

Yes, stone crafting ability should be learned after a long time, in order to be used in very long games, when every tools from civilisation are gone.

My problem with this sentiment is that tools are very easy to maintain especially in cold, dry environments. For instance, I have a pair of snowshoes (wood and sinew) that belonged to my great-grandfather. The binding's have been replaced and my dad had to fix a break but the snowshoes as a whole are still great. Axes, knives, etc. may wear out but hilts/handles can be replaced and blades sharpened. Maintenance can easily keep tools functional for generations.

Sure, you can throw everything you come across into a snow bank and let it get buried in mud in the spring but in this situation I doubt that would happen. More likely you'd do everything possible to keep your tools in the best condition to use for years.

[elloco999]

On 26-8-2016 at 11:04 PM, cekivi said:

My problem with this sentiment is that tools are very easy to maintain especially in cold, dry environments. For instance, I have a pair of snowshoes (wood and sinew) that belonged to my great-grandfather. The binding's have been replaced and my dad had to fix a break but the snowshoes as a whole are still great. Axes, knives, etc. may wear out but hilts/handles can be replaced and blades sharpened. Maintenance can easily keep tools functional for generations.

While that is true IRL, it is not in TLD. And I don't think TLD would be a better game if tools lasted for generations...

[cekivi]

1 hour ago, elloco999 said:

While that is true IRL, it is not in TLD. And I don't think TLD would be a better game if tools lasted for generations...

It may be better if there was only one precious hatchet/knife/rifle in the entire sandbox

[elloco999]

4 minutes ago, cekivi said:

It may be better if there was only one precious hatchet/knife/rifle in the entire sandbox

Sure, if those are guaranteed to be on the starting map... I think most players would not enjoy having to search all maps to find each tool.

[SteveP]

Flint knapping is something you can learn to do if you want to do it. With the game skill feature, you can learn the mechanics from a book. It's hard to make the beautifully symmetrical arrow points that the skilled artisans make however, using glass, you can get some fairly descent flakes which can be slotted into arrow shafts. Obsidian, flint and chert are relatively rare however obsidian does exist in places in BC.

I think it would add a lot of cachet to the game and appeal to a certain audience. It's a cool skill to know and would add much needed interest to the latter part of the game. The game tends to become rather rote after a few hundred days of in-game survival. To make it fully appealing, I think it would need to involve some of the technical aspects of knapping. The concepts are teachable. Let's not get hung up on the difficulty of this art; plenty of things can go wrong with a chunk of random rock: inclusions, flaws, slight fractures, moisture, freezing and so forth. To put it another way, these very difficulties can make for a very interesting mini-game.

I think flint knapping should be considered a highly skilled, advanced capability that requires considerable practice to master.

Remember: "What one man can do, another can do!"

 

[SteveP]

On 8/26/2016 at 3:21 AM, elloco999 said:

Just finding the right type of stone would be very hard

Glass, ceramics and tiles are everywhere! You'd start with flakes. If you learned what a core was and how to prepare it, you could make a tool to take long flakes off a core. These are the really useful flakes! Knapping is such a great and interesting hobby!

[Boston123]

It is an interesting hobby, but not one that is exactly necessary for survival. 

To be honest; I am rather tired about arguing over this topic, over and over again. I've said my piece. But, as a final rebuttal.

The Native Americans, who made and used stone tools, dropped them like last years New Year's resolution as soon as metal tools came around. Just saying.