Legendary BOOMSTICK (part 2)

[Docterrok]

Ok, before I begin, I would like it to be known that I read the comments from the previous part, one person showed distaste for a double barrel shotgun, also, I was not suggesting any other weapons, I was simply pointing out that they all had shotguns, I was not suggesting a blunderbuss or a semi-auto rifle. So, I believe for easiness of animation, a double barrel shotgun would be the best choice, what do you think? Thanks!

[Dirmagnos]

That person still dislike double barrel. 8)

And in terms of animation Remington would be better choice still. I doesnt require as many reloads and reloading is simple flip and insert, repeating same animation. While for double barrel you need to break it, eject empty cartridges one by one and then reinsert new ones for each barrel, repeating that action almost after every shot, just to keep extra shell in the barrel just in case first one missed or were not enough. Only plus side of double barreled is the fact that you can empty both barrels in one go.

With rifle 10-round mag i can run around for days if not weeks without reloading, even if i have extra ammo. Practically never need a second shot, since i either kill my target or it is 2 close/far for second attempt.

[Docterrok]

1 hour ago, Dirmagnos said:

That person still dislike double barrel. 8)

And in terms of animation Remington would be better choice still. I doesnt require as many reloads and reloading is simple flip and insert, repeating same animation. While for double barrel you need to break it, eject empty cartridges one by one and then reinsert new ones for each barrel, repeating that action almost after every shot, just to keep extra shell in the barrel just in case first one missed or were not enough. Only plus side of double barreled is the fact that you can empty both barrels in one go.

With rifle 10-round mag i can run around for days if not weeks without reloading, even if i have extra ammo. Practically never need a second shot, since i either kill my target or it is 2 close/far for second attempt.

I meant animation without having arms, like, how you have no hands and all...

[Boston123]

2 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

That person still dislike double barrel. 8)

And in terms of animation Remington would be better choice still. I doesnt require as many reloads and reloading is simple flip and insert, repeating same animation. While for double barrel you need to break it, eject empty cartridges one by one and then reinsert new ones for each barrel, repeating that action almost after every shot, just to keep extra shell in the barrel just in case first one missed or were not enough. Only plus side of double barreled is the fact that you can empty both barrels in one go.

With rifle 10-round mag i can run around for days if not weeks without reloading, even if i have extra ammo. Practically never need a second shot, since i either kill my target or it is 2 close/far for second attempt.

You are actually not "supposed to" leave rounds loaded in a spring-fed (aka most firearms) magazine for long periods of time, as being constantly depressed can cause the spring to wear out, and cause a failure-to-feed when you need it most.

The firearms that can be loaded and left for weeks at a time with zero issues?  User-cycled firearms, like double-barrel shotguns and revolvers.

[Docterrok]

Indeed

[Dirmagnos]

3 hours ago, Boston123 said:

You are actually not "supposed to" leave rounds loaded in a spring-fed (aka most firearms) magazine for long periods of time, as being constantly depressed can cause the spring to wear out, and cause a failure-to-feed when you need it most.

The firearms that can be loaded and left for weeks at a time with zero issues?  User-cycled firearms, like double-barrel shotguns and revolvers.

You also not supposed to leave rifles loaded, yet we do. Otherwise wed have a lot of pointless micromanagement in the game, like unloading gun every time we come home or clean it. To be honest, youre not supposed to leave rounds loaded in any gun for various reasons, including revolvers or db shotguns.

Besides, and im fishing since i have no idea what im talking about, cant you just extend that spring again ? Take it out, put some weight on it and let it stretch for a while.

[EternityTide]

While I suppose a shotgun would be a welcome addition just to create variety amongst the firearms, I'm not that enthused about a shotgun.
My personal opinion on shotguns is that they are for people who can't aim. 

[Docterrok]

On 7/4/2016 at 7:53 PM, EternityTide said:

While I suppose a shotgun would be a welcome addition just to create variety amongst the firearms, I'm not that enthused about a shotgun.
My personal opinion on shotguns is that they are for people who can't aim. 

have you ever gone skeet shooting? it totally requires aim! 

[EternityTide]

2 hours ago, Docterrok said:

have you ever gone skeet shooting? it totally requires aim! 

Manage it with a rifle, I'll be impressed. A shotgun is to a rifle as a cluster bomb is to a tactical missile. Different uses, but rather than indiscriminately carpet bombing an area, it hits a specific, critical target.

I just have more respect for the skill in a rifle user than a shotgun user.

[Dirmagnos]

Shotguns are mainly used for hunting for simple reason that rifles have high penetration that may have negative impact of lethality. High speed bullet can just pass thru soft target without causing sufficient damage(they will just drill a small hole), while shotgun pellets, due to lower traveling speed, shape and amount, tend to do far more damage.

[Docterrok]

1 hour ago, EternityTide said:

Manage it with a rifle, I'll be impressed. A shotgun is to a rifle as a cluster bomb is to a tactical missile. Different uses, but rather than indiscriminately carpet bombing an area, it hits a specific, critical target.

I just have more respect for the skill in a rifle user than a shotgun user.

Shotguns are practical. Simply, they were made to make things easier, with your logic, spears were invented for people who were too lazy to catch things with there bare hands! 

[EternityTide]

They aren't really all that practical. The logic behind a shotgun is "because I can't aim for shit, I am going to hurl hundreds of small projectiles at a target instead if one big one, and hope that enough of them hit their target to drop it".

Despite my distaste for shotguns and their wielders, I still think one should be incorporated into the game.

[EternityTide]

18 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Shotguns are mainly used for hunting for simple reason that rifles have high penetration that may have negative impact of lethality. High speed bullet can just pass thru soft target without causing sufficient damage(they will just drill a small hole), while shotgun pellets, due to lower traveling speed, shape and amount, tend to do far more damage.

The same effect can be achieved by using sub-sonic rounds, or soft-nosed/ fragmentation munitions, depending on the legality of either in your district. Arguably, a high velocity round through the heart, spinal cord (close to the neck) or major artery would negate any debate concerning lethality.

[Docterrok]

47 minutes ago, EternityTide said:

The same effect can be achieved by using sub-sonic rounds, or soft-nosed/ fragmentation munitions, depending on the legality of either in your district. Arguably, a high velocity round through the heart, spinal cord (close to the neck) or major artery would negate any debate concerning lethality.

i am a shotgun user myself, I would just like to point out its damn hard to aim with one because of how powerful it is. I have a 12 gauge and i bruise every time i shoot the damn thing! 

[Boston123]

-facepalm-

You guys do realize that shotguns don't just spray out shot in a gigantic 70-degree cone, right?

00 Buck, arguably the most common buckshot (and therefore, the most common shotgun shell we could reasonably find), has 9 buckshot pellets, each roughly equal in diameter to a 9mm bullet. It doesn't have "hundreds" . Birdshot, which as evidenced by its name, is suited for birds and small game, has a lot more pellets.

And, asides from that, the "cone of shot" fired by shotguns is much "narrower" in reality than one might expect. Depending on the choke of the shotgun and the loading of the shell, you can make lethal shots using buckshot on a deer out to 40-50 meters.

Also, contrary to popular opinion and knowledge gleaned from video games, you still have to aim with shotguns. 

Shotguns are some of the most versatile and arguably useful firearms to own, and in the case of a TLD-style situation, I would definitely want to own a double barrel shotgun over a rifle any day of the week.

Birdshot for small game, buckshot for hunting and defense, and slugs for hunting?

Almost no moving parts, and therefore, almost nothing to jam? Awesome

Shotguns shells are criminally easy to reload, including with blackpowder? Try that with a modern rifle!

pfffttt

[Gallowsknight]

I agree with Boston123 a shotgun would be practical and verastile.

Finding a 22 or even an air rifle would be cool. You could find bricks of 100 .22 rds or make pellets for an air rifle out of scrap metal. But it's only really useful for rabbits. You don't want to put it between you and a Wolf.

Also as a neat easter egg you could put a unique variant of the Rifle with the new Tikka/Sako the artic rangers are replacing their old 303s with. You might have to ignore the fact they're 308W though.

[Docterrok]

1 hour ago, Boston123 said:

-facepalm-

You guys do realize that shotguns don't just spray out shot in a gigantic 70-degree cone, right?

00 Buck, arguably the most common buckshot (and therefore, the most common shotgun shell we could reasonably find), has 9 buckshot pellets, each roughly equal in diameter to a 9mm bullet. It doesn't have "hundreds" . Birdshot, which as evidenced by its name, is suited for birds and small game, has a lot more pellets.

And, asides from that, the "cone of shot" fired by shotguns is much "narrower" in reality than one might expect. Depending on the choke of the shotgun and the loading of the shell, you can make lethal shots using buckshot on a deer out to 40-50 meters.

Also, contrary to popular opinion and knowledge gleaned from video games, you still have to aim with shotguns. 

Shotguns are some of the most versatile and arguably useful firearms to own, and in the case of a TLD-style situation, I would definitely want to own a double barrel shotgun over a rifle any day of the week.

Birdshot for small game, buckshot for hunting and defense, and slugs for hunting?

Almost no moving parts, and therefore, almost nothing to jam? Awesome

Shotguns shells are criminally easy to reload, including with blackpowder? Try that with a modern rifle!

pfffttt

I knew that... But they should give you a chance to bruise hen you shoot them.

[Boston123]

7 hours ago, Docterrok said:

I knew that... But they should give you a chance to bruise hen you shoot them.

To me, it sounds like you are holding your shotgun wrong.

I am not a big guy, 5'4" and 140lbs, and I can fire a 12 gauge no problem; no bruising,  no problem aiming, etc.

What is your "stance"? Are you holding the butt firmly to your shoulder, leaning forwards with one knee bent, the other back, etc?

Granted, I am not a firearms instructor, but anyone should be able to fire a 12G with minimal-to-no problems, even children. Hell, the Scouts do it all the time!

[alone sniper]

I heard shotgun recoil is not a big deal. 

[Docterrok]

1 hour ago, Boston123 said:

To me, it sounds like you are holding your shotgun wrong.

I am not a big guy, 5'4" and 140lbs, and I can fire a 12 gauge no problem; no bruising,  no problem aiming, etc.

What is your "stance"? Are you holding the butt firmly to your shoulder, leaning forwards with one knee bent, the other back, etc?

Granted, I am not a firearms instructor, but anyone should be able to fire a 12G with minimal-to-no problems, even children. Hell, the Scouts do it all the time!

oops, I apologize, I feel like an idiot, it was a 10 gauge, I feel stupid, yes, I know proper gun stance btw.

[EternityTide]

11 hours ago, Boston123 said:

-facepalm-

You guys do realize that shotguns don't just spray out shot in a gigantic 70-degree cone, right?

00 Buck, arguably the most common buckshot (and therefore, the most common shotgun shell we could reasonably find), has 9 buckshot pellets, each roughly equal in diameter to a 9mm bullet. It doesn't have "hundreds" . Birdshot, which as evidenced by its name, is suited for birds and small game, has a lot more pellets.

And, asides from that, the "cone of shot" fired by shotguns is much "narrower" in reality than one might expect. Depending on the choke of the shotgun and the loading of the shell, you can make lethal shots using buckshot on a deer out to 40-50 meters.

Also, contrary to popular opinion and knowledge gleaned from video games, you still have to aim with shotguns. 

Shotguns are some of the most versatile and arguably useful firearms to own, and in the case of a TLD-style situation, I would definitely want to own a double barrel shotgun over a rifle any day of the week.

Birdshot for small game, buckshot for hunting and defense, and slugs for hunting?

Almost no moving parts, and therefore, almost nothing to jam? Awesome

Shotguns shells are criminally easy to reload, including with blackpowder? Try that with a modern rifle!

pfffttt

I am aware of the scale for buckshot, I was simply exaggerating to make a point.
The point I am making about shotguns is that because they are smoothbore firearms, they are woefully inaccurate over long distances. The purpose of rifling (as I'm sure you already know, but I'm going to outline it anyway) is to introduce a spin to the projectile that essentially turns the entire bullet into a gyroscope that stabilizes the projectile in flight, which is why smoothbore projectiles tend to tumble and keyhole after they have travelled any appreciable distance.
The saving grace of the shotgun is that it is very tolerant of what's loaded into it, and that allows greater versitility of payload. This means that multiple projectiles increase the chance of hitting a target, as oppose to a single projectile. As for reloading old shotgun shells, you arguably could do the same with spent brass from rifles, although I reckon that each shot from a rifle is more standardized than a shotgun, so you are more likely to gain reliable results. 
The shotgun is near enough the one-shot equivalent to the "spray and pray" methodology - point it in the right direction, and so long as you are within 30-40 MOA, you'll hit it with something.
Bolt action and lever action rifles are also very reliable, with almost no moving parts. Shotguns still require a firing pin and cocking mechanism, and if you've got an auto ejector, that adds even more complexity, so compared with manual rifles, they're fairly even footed on the reliability score.
Fire rate is also superior for rifles, and unless you are hunting large numbers of small birds, everything a shotgun can do, a rifle can do better.
Shotguns have their uses, but for hunting, I would say a rifle is better.
 

[Docterrok]

Nuff said...

Hell of a kick.

[Boston123]

13 minutes ago, EternityTide said:

I am aware of the scale for buckshot, I was simply exaggerating to make a point.
The point I am making about shotguns is that because they are smoothbore firearms, they are woefully inaccurate over long distances. The purpose of rifling (as I'm sure you already know, but I'm going to outline it anyway) is to introduce a spin to the projectile that essentially turns the entire bullet into a gyroscope that stabilizes the projectile in flight, which is why smoothbore projectiles tend to tumble and keyhole after they have travelled any appreciable distance.
The saving grace of the shotgun is that it is very tolerant of what's loaded into it, and that allows greater versitility of payload. This means that multiple projectiles increase the chance of hitting a target, as oppose to a single projectile. As for reloading old shotgun shells, you arguably could do the same with spent brass from rifles, although I reckon that each shot from a rifle is more standardized than a shotgun, so you are more likely to gain reliable results. 
The shotgun is near enough the one-shot equivalent to the "spray and pray" methodology - point it in the right direction, and so long as you are within 30-40 MOA, you'll hit it with something.
Bolt action and lever action rifles are also very reliable, with almost no moving parts. Shotguns still require a firing pin and cocking mechanism, and if you've got an auto ejector, that adds even more complexity, so compared with manual rifles, they're fairly even footed on the reliability score.
Fire rate is also superior for rifles, and unless you are hunting large numbers of small birds, everything a shotgun can do, a rifle can do better.
Shotguns have their uses, but for hunting, I would say a rifle is better.
 

NOTE: Keep in mind, I am referring to manually-loaded-and-extracted double barrel shotguns, not pumps or automatics.

1) Cases: Shotgun shells are straight-walled, the cartridges fired from rifles are not. Therefore, the shotgun shells will always be stronger than the rifle cases, subject to less wear. You can only reload spent brass a certain amount of times, "bottlenecked" cases even less. With shotguns, this is much less of an issue, to the point where you can make impromptu cases out of paper. I've done it, and they work fine.

2) Rounds:

Modern rifle: You can't really fire hand-made bullets (the bits that zoom out to getcha', but I am sure you knew that) from a modern firearm, as leading occurs. This is when little deposits of lead get left behind in the barrel and in the rifling, which can cause problems (understatement). "Most" rounds fired from rifled firearms today are jacketed, meaning the softer lead is surrounded by a jacket of harder metal (which, again, I am sure you already know)

Shoguns: soft lead, hard lead, who cares?! No rifling to mess up. I know a guy who makes buckshot and slugs by melting down tire weights then dropping the melted lead into a bucket of water. The same guy makes "wax slugs' by dripping melted wax into birdshot shells, then letting it cool. Those things annihalate cinderblocks, (decommissioned) roadsigns, etc. It would have no problems dropping a deer or a wolf.

2) Blackpowder: No, I go over with this with Vancopower all the time. 99% of the time, you do not want to use blackpowder in a modern rifle. Shotguns, on the other hand, work perfectly fine with blackpowder. In fact, one could say that they were "designed" for it.

3) moving parts:

Bolt Action Rifle: bolt, firing pin + spring, , loading spring (in the magazine), extracting/ejecting arm + spring, plus the bits that make all those parts come together and work in sync. Of course, you could load in cartridges by hand, but that only removes the magazine spring.

Double-barrel shotgun: firing pin. That's ..... that's it. The user loads in and removes the spent shells by hand, as well as cocking back the firing pins. An extractor is common, but you can find DB"s without them.

Now, I am not saying that rifles are inferior, far from it, I am just saying that shotguns often get a "bad rap". Rifles are superior to shotguns for hunting large game. Shotguns are almost infinitely more versatile. I can load a shotgun with slugs, spot some small game and load in some birdshot, then spot a bear and switch out for some slugs. Can't quite do that with a rifle.

Also, a note about smoothbore accuracy: with a well-fitting projectile, some tight wadding, and a surface to brace on, smoothbore firearms can be basically just as accurate, and as lethal, as rifled firearms within 100m. With a Revolutionary War replica musket, a tight-fitting ball, deerhide used as a tight patch, and a bench to brace on, I was getting sub-2 inch groups on a target at 75m. 

Important to note: For the "average" survivor, you aren't going to be making shots with ANYTHING at "long distance", regardless of weapon. Take someone off the street, give them a rifle, and have them aim at a target while cold (shivering), hungry (weak), tired, scared (also shivering), etc, and chances are they won't be able to shoot for jack. I make my own bow and arrows, consider myself pretty skilled with them, and still don't quite trust myself to make shots on a living target past 20 meters or so. If I was surviving in the woods in a TLD -style situation, I would limit myself to 40-50 meters at most....... which is basically what is happening in-game . Notice how with the rifle, you can't really shoot at anything "far away"? At those ranges, give me a shotgun with slugs

The survivor in Sandbox is very much the "average survivor". In fact, I would label them almost dangerously incompetent.

[Docterrok]

wow! I love all of the support! I hope this becomes a thing! 

[EternityTide]

5 hours ago, Boston123 said:

Modern rifle: You can't really fire hand-made bullets (the bits that zoom out to getcha', but I am sure you knew that) from a modern firearm, as leading occurs. This is when little deposits of lead get left behind in the barrel and in the rifling, which can cause problems (understatement). "Most" rounds fired from rifled firearms today are jacketed, meaning the softer lead is surrounded by a jacket of harder metal (which, again, I am sure you already know)

Shoguns: soft lead, hard lead, who cares?! No rifling to mess up. I know a guy who makes buckshot and slugs by melting down tire weights then dropping the melted lead into a bucket of water. The same guy makes "wax slugs' by dripping melted wax into birdshot shells, then letting it cool. Those things annihalate cinderblocks, (decommissioned) roadsigns, etc. It would have no problems dropping a deer or a wolf.

2) Blackpowder: No, I go over with this with Vancopower all the time. 99% of the time, you do not want to use blackpowder in a modern rifle. Shotguns, on the other hand, work perfectly fine with blackpowder. In fact, one could say that they were "designed" for it.

Arguably, a skilled individual could easily cast a copper jacket and fill it with lead, provided the bullet is cast in an even balanced manner, with no bubbles, and the external diameter is within tight enough tolerances. I have no experience with handmade munitions, so I can only speculate, but it's certainly possible from a theoretical point of view. 
As for black powder... it's a horrible propellant. Smoothbore weapons are not immune to fouling, as you seem to be suggesting, its just that fouling has an exaggerated effect on rifled barrels because they have greater internal surface area to trap contaminants, and the clogging of the rifling has more of a detrimental effect than simple build up on the side of a smooth barrel.
As well as that, you neglected to mention the bugbear of black powder.
Blackpowder, as most reanactment folks are aware (or at least should be), burns acidicly. The corrosive nature of its burn has been a major headache for firearm designers for centuries.
Cannon builders, for example, had one rather nasty problem, that of the touch-hole to ignite the charge. Cannons, as they aged, slowly were eaten away from the inside by the powder. Whilst this lead to pitting and scarring of the barrel interior, resulting in inaccuracy anyway, the major problem was that each firing ate away at the edges of the touch hole, widening it each time. Eventually it became wide enough that the hot gases were escaping from the touch  hole to such an extent, that cannons lost power and thus accuracy as they aged. Designers attempted to overcome these problems by using brass instead of iron or steel, in an effort to make the guns resistant to corrosion, but this was only minorly successful. Another innovation was the introduction of a removable plug which had the touch hole drilled into it, which would be replaced when the touch-hole grew too large (a long and arduous process which put the cannon out of commission for a considerable amount of time).
In modern times, blackpowder has been abandoned as a mainstream propellant for less damaging propellants (such as cordite), as this corrosive nature could never be overcome. I don't believe blackpowder should really be used in a modern shotgun except for a last resort.