First Aid: Broken Bones

[Wastelander]

As someone who's never had a completely broken bone, I just can't begin to imagine the immense pain this must cause. I had a cracked bone, but I assume the pain from this was nowhere near the pain of a completely broken bone. I shudder just thinking about it.

[Dirmagnos]

1 hour ago, Boston123 said:

With broken bones, you don't just "apply splint", you actually have to set the bone back into place, where you pull on the limb and broken bone until the broken ends match up "like normal", then apply traction, when you put slight tension on the broken bone so it heals straight. Depending on where the broken bone is, the muscles around the break site can be extremely powerful (and will probably be spasming and cramping), making applying traction extremely painful and all-but impossible for a lone survivor to accomplish.

You just contradict yourself.

What you refer is a severe injury, that rarely happens. In most cases, even if bone is broken, it stays in its place, because its held there by same muscles, tendons and whatever else is in proximity depending on location. Bones do not just float in jello and move freely around.

And you dont need 4+ weeks. Its another result of modern comfortable living. Even 2 weeks are enough to regain some degree of mobility. It all depends on how bad situation is.

[Boston123]

1 minute ago, Dirmagnos said:

You just contradict yourself.

What you refer is a severe injury, that rarely happens. In most cases, even if bone is broken, it stays in its place, because its held there by same muscles, tendons and whatever else is in proximity depending on location. Bones do not just float in jello and move freely around.

And you dont need 4+ weeks. Its another result of modern comfortable living. Even 2 weeks are enough to regain some degree of mobility. It all depends on how bad situation is.

With regards to literally everything regarding Wilderness Survival, you always plan with the worst possible situation in mind.

[Dirmagnos]

15 minutes ago, Boston123 said:

With regards to literally everything regarding Wilderness Survival, you always plan with the worst possible situation in mind.

Thats the point of the definition, worse. As unlikely it may be to happen.

Generally you try to prepare as best as you can, not just throw down arms when shit hits the fan "nope, thats not what i was preparing for".

If you have an open break, far from home, cold, no supplies, night is near and wolves seem to howl rather close to your location then your chances are slim to none, true. But if you can get home, fracture is closed and seemingly set, have some supplies, then its a really good chance that you can get thru it. Even if you remain limp for the rest of your life due to improperly set bone, its still far better than alternatives.

[sir ice]

On 8/1/2016 at 4:24 AM, Dirmagnos said:

Except that in game you dont have that luxury. And people have survived horrendous injuries without modern medicine for a long time. Mortality rate was high, granted, but it is possible.

Or are to say to to me that if you were to break a bone in such situation, then you would just put a barrel of a gun in your mouth and pull a trigger ?

If I was in that situation I wouldn't touch my arm, and would stay in a cabin until it stopped hurting as much. It would probably heal badly, and I would be weaker. If it was my leg, I would lie there are freeze to death because my leg hurts. I might crawl a little if there is a nearby cabin, but then I would end up staying in there for weeks, or maybe months. I would die before healed (from starvation or dehydration) and get cabin fever. When you talk about cavemen surviving broken bones, you have to remember that they were in tribes. Others gave them food. 

[sir ice]

On 8/1/2016 at 3:57 AM, Majales said:

It's always good to know at least a little bit about first aid. There are situations, when rescue can be hours away or without immediate help someone dies.

Of course, but most people don't.

[cekivi]

Note that even in modern times some people have done truly insane things due to a desire not to die alone in the wilderness. For an example of how you could (in theory) survive a broken leg I recommend looking at "Touching the Void". Note that the man in the situation ultimately survived because he was able to reach help. Since NPCs are a roadmap item "help" could be getting to the trapper before the wolves find you (assuming the trapper is an NPC).

[Dirmagnos]

5 hours ago, sir ice said:

If I was in that situation I wouldn't touch my arm, and would stay in a cabin until it stopped hurting as much. It would probably heal badly, and I would be weaker. If it was my leg, I would lie there are freeze to death because my leg hurts. I might crawl a little if there is a nearby cabin, but then I would end up staying in there for weeks, or maybe months. I would die before healed (from starvation or dehydration) and get cabin fever. When you talk about cavemen surviving broken bones, you have to remember that they were in tribes. Others gave them food. 

Firstly you obviously never been in extreme situation, when survival instinct kicks in. When people change completely, as thin veil of civilization is stripped away and body does everything to stay alive. Brain chemistry literally changes and what you believed to be impossible suddenly doesnt look like such a big stretch. When death is not some abstract but quite real and looming danger people tend to reevaluate their life. Primal instinct is an extremely powerful driving force.

Also cavemen mostly killed off those who were too injured or tribe didnt have sufficient resources to spare. Humanism was not really such a big thing.

[Wastelander]

35 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

Primal instinct is an extremely powerful driving force.

This is correct.

35 minutes ago, Dirmagnos said:

Also cavemen mostly killed off those who were too injured or tribe didnt have sufficient resources to spare. Humanism was not really such a big thing.

This, on the other hand, isn't - or at least not completely. It's true that there were 'mercy-killings', but at the same time, a lot of skeletons found show healed fractures and such, meaning that 'cavemen' (who didn't all live in caves, by the way - the stone age had some pretty cool architecture for it's time) did have some compassion for their fellows. Compassion is hardwired into the human mind, just like the will to survive (and just like the will to survive, it can be shut down, otherwise we wouldn't have war crimes). Also, prehistoric Homo Sapiens had some pretty cool, albeit crude, medicine, including ritualistic skull-drillings to release purported spirits from the brain. Makes me kind of glad to live in the current year  

EDIT: I also am an idiot who didn't read your post correctly, my apologies. Yes, if they were too injured, they were killed, and if resources were scarce as well. You are completely right. 

[Dirmagnos]

8 hours ago, Wastelander said:

Also, prehistoric Homo Sapiens had some pretty cool, albeit crude, medicine, including ritualistic skull-drillings to release purported spirits from the brain. Makes me kind of glad to live in the current year  

If you get hit in the head then its a good chance that it will burst a vein(several) and create hematoma. Drilling a hole is viable way to relive pressure and release excessive blood. Its fairly safe as well, since even if brain matter is damage in the process it doesnt really matter all that much and brain itself doesnt feel pain, which is kinda ironic considering that its one organ that processes pain.

[danicusrex]

16 hours ago, sir ice said:

Of course, but most people don't.

"Most people" don't know how to craft a bow, improvise medicines using local plants, dress & butcher a kill, etc. The survivor in this game is not "most people". The survivor is clearly a person with some familiarity with survival skills.

[Sly]

On 8/1/2016 at 9:33 PM, Dirmagnos said:

You just contradict yourself.

What you refer is a severe injury, that rarely happens. In most cases, even if bone is broken, it stays in its place, because its held there by same muscles, tendons and whatever else is in proximity depending on location. Bones do not just float in jello and move freely around.

And you dont need 4+ weeks. Its another result of modern comfortable living. Even 2 weeks are enough to regain some degree of mobility. It all depends on how bad situation is.

In general, I rather agree with Boston then you, Dirmagnos. 

As for time for bone to consolidate enough to regain mobility depends of what bone is broken and fracture characteristics and overall state of organism and may vary greatly.

[Sly]

7 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

If you get hit in the head then its a good chance that it will burst a vein(several) and create hematoma. Drilling a hole is viable way to relive pressure and release excessive blood. Its fairly safe as well, since even if brain matter is damage in the process it doesnt really matter all that much and brain itself doesnt feel pain, which is kinda ironic considering that its one organ that processes pain.

I do not think drilling the scull procedures until development of modern neurosurgery was intended to decompress epidural/subdural haematoms. But who knows...

[sir ice]

18 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

Firstly you obviously never been in extreme situation, when survival instinct kicks in. When people change completely, as thin veil of civilization is stripped away and body does everything to stay alive. Brain chemistry literally changes and what you believed to be impossible suddenly doesnt look like such a big stretch. When death is not some abstract but quite real and looming danger people tend to reevaluate their life. Primal instinct is an extremely powerful driving force.

Also cavemen mostly killed off those who were too injured or tribe didnt have sufficient resources to spare. Humanism was not really such a big thing.

I guess your right.

[strigon]

On 8/2/2016 at 6:11 PM, sir ice said:

Of course, but most people don't.

These characters are already doing things that most people don't know how to do.
Most people can't skin a bear, use a forge, craft most of the items used, or do just about anything else the game lets us do.

Also, isn't one of the characters literally a doctor?

[cekivi]

2 hours ago, strigon said:

These characters are already doing things that most people don't know how to do.
Most people can't skin a bear, use a forge, craft most of the items used, or do just about anything else the game lets us do.

Also, isn't one of the characters literally a doctor?

 

In the single player game the female character is a doctor. However, there's nothing to say that our sandbox characters are the same as the single player game characters.

[Dirmagnos]

4 hours ago, Sly said:

In general, I rather agree with Boston then you, Dirmagnos. 

As for time for bone to consolidate enough to regain mobility depends of what bone is broken and fracture characteristics and overall state of organism and may vary greatly.

True, i was referring to average minimal time.

4 hours ago, Sly said:

I do not think drilling the scull procedures until development of modern neurosurgery was intended to decompress epidural/subdural haematoms. But who knows...

The fact that ppl didnt know mechanics of the process, doesnt mean that it was any less effective. Penicillin is fairly recent discovery, but ppl used specific mold for certain conditions from ancient history. Call it releasing demons or relieving pressure, end result is the same.

[Sly]

5 hours ago, Dirmagnos said:

The fact that ppl didnt know mechanics of the process, doesnt mean that it was any less effective. Penicillin is fairly recent discovery, but ppl used specific mold for certain conditions from ancient history. Call it releasing demons or relieving pressure, end result is the same.

Of course if such surgery was performed on a patient with intracranial haematoma (ICH), then it is OK. 

But I seriously doubt about that. Even nowadays to indicate the right point (even right side) to perform drilling thorough neurological exam and/or some visualization technic (median echo - CT - MRI etc) should be performed.

Ages ago person probably might suffer from epilepsy/psychiatric condition or something else, not haematoma (ICH) with coma/sezures and probably had got his scull drilled.  

[sir ice]

19 hours ago, strigon said:

These characters are already doing things that most people don't know how to do.
Most people can't skin a bear, use a forge, craft most of the items used, or do just about anything else the game lets us do.

Also, isn't one of the characters literally a doctor?

I think one of them is a nurse. I already admitted defeat earlier but that is another good point.