Transporting embers

[elloco999]

Personally, I would prefer fewer matches with the caveat that matches have MUCH higher durability. I have some matches that are almost a decade old that I can still light fires with

I would love this!

[Killjoy]

Speaking of simple torches...would you guys at Hinterlands consider making it possible to light a new torch with an old one?? (or punk if implemented)

You can already do that. Go into inventory and equip a new torch; the old one will drop to the ground; look at it and left click mouse button to light your new torch.

Sweet, thanks for this tip, I never would have guessed/figured that out on my own.

[SteveP]

Currently we can only manage to equip a single item. Would an ember be like that so it would drop to the ground if we had to equip a torch or weapon? Or would it have a container that could be kept in the backpack?

I suppose you should have the chance to light your torch from ember; is it slower than by match?

[cekivi]

Currently we can only manage to equip a single item. Would an ember be like that so it would drop to the ground if we had to equip a torch or weapon? Or would it have a container that could be kept in the backpack?

I suppose you should have the chance to light your torch from ember; is it slower than by match?

I don't know if the ember would need to be equipped to use. Fire starting is done primarily through the fire starting interface so it should work regardless of whether or not you can equip it.

As for lighting a torch, I would expect it to be much more difficult. The ember would need to blown up into a flame before you could light the torch with it. Even if you had really high fire starting skills it should still take 3-4 times as long. Plus you'd have to sacrifice your entire bundle to do it. It would make a neat option but the only time I could see using it is if things have gone terribly wrong.

[Casazzo]

Plus you'd have to sacrifice your entire bundle to do it.

Why that? That's not the way it works (in real life). You need to sacrifice some tinder though.

[cekivi]

Plus you'd have to sacrifice your entire bundle to do it.

Why that? That's not the way it works (in real life). You need to sacrifice some tinder though.

Your ember is just a small, smouldering coal in the center of some very dry tinder. If you were starting a fire under ideal conditions you might be able to remove only the ember and leave the remaining material intact. A much easier method is to open your ember bundle, blow on it (to add oxygen), ignite the tinder it's sitting in and use that to make the fire.

[SteveP]

I think you put the ember on the torch and it ignites. My vote would be to make it faster or as fast as using a match and a much easier method to starting fires. Other methods such a friction fire obviously take much longer and don't work when you need a fast fire. An ember can be a large chunk of glowing red-hot coal or carbonized wood so it has a lot of heat to it when you give it air. A cat tail head is a good means of carrying an ember in real life. I suppose there could be more variability with embers and they can go out if fire starting skill is low.

[cekivi]

I can see your argument but I don't think the ember should be able to light a torch faster than a match. If you are using a large ember as you suggest than you'll smoulder go through the tinder material in your ember bundle rather quickly so it wouldn't be as long lasting. Secondly, it still takes time to remove ember and flammable material from bundle, add torch and blow to the point of ignition versus a quick match strike. Lastly, from a game mechanics perspective, you shouldn't design something that makes an already implemented item (matches in this case) obsolete. The ember bundle should be very good but it must have some drawbacks as well so that matches remain a viable option.

[SteveP]

Getting embers must be an acquired skill; this is really intended for the long game where matches run out. If you have tinder like a cattail head, add an ember to it and it will flair up rapidly. An ember (glowing coal) has a lot more heat than a match. Friction fires take much longer to start.

Getting tinder to light can be a challenge using a match. If it doesn't flame immediately, you can have a problem. It really depends on the humidity and the quality of the tinder.

The very nicest tinder is made using birch bark, a recent addition to the game. It catches flame easily and burns with a lot of heat, even during damp weather.

Perhaps you are thinking of the tiny embers made using char cloth and a spark. Those take longer. I suppose in the game, we could have the ember start out large and then get smaller and smaller with time making restarting a fire harder.

[Boston123]

^ What?

"Getting an ember must be an acquired skill"? Really?

You take a bunch of punky wood, stuff it into a can, or roll it up inside a roll of birch bark, then place an ember on top of it. Blow it it some, so it smoulders, than place some more punky wood on top. Done.

Each time you make a fire, you get a new ember. You don't keep using the same one

You can balance the whole thing by making matches faster at lighting fires, and requiring the fire to burn for a certain period of time before suitable embers are produced.

[SteveP]

^ What?

"Getting an ember must be an acquired skill"?

It is an acquired skill in real life; you must be taught or showed how to do it. It requires some dexterity handling a shovel or sticks. A novice might be tempted to grab one end of a burnt stick unaware if it were hot or not. Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. To a person who has used fires frequently for camping and has actually moved embers (glowing coals) around, it would seem second nature however they'd also think it was a teachable skill. An ember can be a heap of glowing coals or the spark of red on the end of a half burnt stick. A decent ember has some size to it like a cigarette.

The earlier objection to the addition of embers is that it would obsolete matches. See my response above. Making the use of embers a function of fire making skill would mean it might not be available to players until they had built a LOT of fires and tried to get embers and experiencing burns randomly when it goes wrong. The point is to have a mechanic that permits indefinite survival, IF you can keep your fire going before you loose your ember.

The suggested mechanism for conveying an ember in a tin can doesn't address the problem of trying to hold a hot can or the bottom coming off a tin can if it gets too hot and unsolders or burns through the metal. Usually an ember is carried in a special ember bundle that requires skill, experience and local knowledge. To carry a can, you need a wire handle. It depends on the heat of the embers. A bucket of them for a quick transfer can be really hot. You suggested a roll of birch bark to carry smoldering punk wood: punk wood can easily be too damp to carry an ember especially in Canada and in the winter. You need to dry it out a bit. If the embers get too hot, your birch bark can go up like a torch! Some damp bark would however help some types of ember carry systems.

Carrying glowing coal embers in a metal pail for 15 minutes using a shovel is pretty easy. Getting punk to smolder just right is an art. Les Stroud attempted a long term fire carry without success on one of his shows. Cody Lundeen has done some fire ember carries but often with mixed success (wet cave no good) (swamp cattails burnt too hot)

I think the answer to the long term limited match supply issue is to have friction fires. Embers really don't last longer than game torches especially if you use multiple ones. I think they would take the same amount of tending to keep going for extended periods of time such as one or two hours.

I'm all for making the game more realistic as a simulation however that does not appeal to everyone! I love the nifty survival tricks and the game incorporates a lot of them.

What if you have the torch still have glowing embers on it just like the fire does when it's about to go out? That would give you a few seconds to restart another fire or torch. I like that the torch now seems to burn less brightly near the end so you do seem to get a warning. Anyone else confirm that?

[cekivi]

Perhaps you are thinking of the tiny embers made using char cloth and a spark. Those take longer. I suppose in the game, we could have the ember start out large and then get smaller and smaller with time making restarting a fire harder.

I was indeed thinking of embers around that size. The ember bundles that I've seen demonstrated (mostly TV but I have started breakfast camp fires from the previous night's embers) have always been very small and the majority is the surrounding smouldering tinder. Hence the effort and time to take the ember and get it big enough again to ignite something. And yes, embers are much hotter than a fresh flame but you still (normally) need that flame for ignition to occur. The heat will definitely help ignition but without the corona of free radicals in a flame having vigorous ignition occur will take a little longer to achieve.

Going back to the mechanics, one of my earlier posts did make the argument for efficacy being linked to fire starting skill. However, the skill does start at 50 (out of a possible 100) and does increase rapidly. Having no chance at 50 skill and near perfect success at a 100 would be a little jarring and "gamey". Personally, I would prefer the duration and success of lighting the next fire to be the skills tested for - not the initial building of the bundle. Players need to be able to safely explore and experiment with new mechanics and having a barrier to that I think would detract from the game. Having failure (due to ember burning out) be a time and resource cost would be better than injury and immediate failure to encourage such exploration.

[vancopower]

+1

Neat idea but instead of making it with, plants you could just use plain coal, and tinder since pure coal will outlast almost anything in burning, great mechanic will be if you get your fire temperature high enough, similar to forge 120 C or so A button should pop up, "preserve coal embers" if you have the proper materials you could do so otherwise "materials needed" msg pops out

[cekivi]

Darn, our brilliant idea did not make it into the latest update

On the bright side, the bow reticle is back! Yea! I can hunt again

[Hesha]

May I suggest, as an intermediate solution, to just let embers in a stove stay "live" for a couple of hours rather than a few minutes?

[cekivi]

May I suggest, as an intermediate solution, to just let embers in a stove stay "live" for a couple of hours rather than a few minutes?

That would work great for indoor areas. Outside I guess you'd have to code duration to match the weather.

Be neat if you could harvest moss or some other insulating material. You could then throw some on your coals to keep them from going out for a little longer.

[Hesha]

Absolutely, that's why I said "embers in a stove". Outside you have to actively keep them alive.

[druffzilla]

May I suggest, as an intermediate solution, to just let embers in a stove stay "live" for a couple of hours rather than a few minutes?

Yeah a couple of hours should be a standart for this, and maybe a extinguish fire option to have embers "live" for longer?

[cekivi]

Absolutely, that's why I said "embers in a stove". Outside you have to actively keep them alive.

Well, there are a few stoves outside

I once started a game at dawn in the middle of a blizzard. Fortunately, I stumbled across a stove in the burnt out cabin in Mystery Lake. Kept me warm enough to push on to the Camp Office

[Hesha]

Oh, I see. Yeah, I forgot about that... there is a stove in Clearcut and then the fishing huts are technically "outside" too... but a stove is a stove. If the wind flow through the chimney is adjustable, it should be possible to keep embers alive for a few hours

[cekivi]

True.

For the time being though I'll just have to look forward to January. I got to play for an hour today (Timberwolf mountain is amazing!) and then I'm traveling for the rest of the holiday!