Permanent lasting damage from animal attacks!

[cowboymrh]

For the sake of realism ...... I believe there should be permanent lasting damage from wolf and especially bear attacks.

This would also shorten the "infinite long runs" in the game.

For example: In real life, most people who have been attacked by a bear and survive, RARELY EVER recover to 100%. They have lasting injuries for the rest of their lives.

So I believe if you are attacked by a bear, you should lose for example, anywhere from 5% to 15% condition permanently for EACH bear attack!

Also for wolves, your condition should drop from 3% to 5% PERMANENTLY for each attack.

This would be condition you never get back!

This would make players be far more careful, and much less "cavalier" about wrestling wolves as a strategy.

[brun]

Really cool idea. I like!

[druffzilla]

I like the idea too but I think it should be more complex.

I've been bitten by animals a lot, never by a wolf though but cat and dog bites for example.

What is the worst on those bites is the bacteria in the wound, I once rescued a street cat out of a hole in southern Europe on holiday, she was caught there for quite some time and was totally panicked, I grabbed her on the neck and pulled her out, when I didn't let her go straight away she managed to bite me in the hand I was holding her neck with. That was one of the nastiest bites I ever had, it got infected too, my whole hand swell and I couldn't use it for a couple of days, it was very painful to move the fingers even after a few weeks, but today, a few years later there are only scars left...

Yes. Wolf bites and especially bear bites are a lot worse probably, but all the dog bites I had where nothing compared to that cat bite.

Anyway, my point is forever lasting damage is rare, if you don't get big pieces of meat ripped out, bones shattered or sinews cut you will probably discover from it completely.

So my idea would be that only real bad injuries leave forever lasting damage. If you loose more then 60% health in a row from the same cause, it can be two wolf bites, frostbite, burns, fall damage or a bear attack you get ~5% of the 60% = 3% permanent damage that will never heal and ~50% of the 60% = 30% long lasting damage, this damage will only heal 1-2% per day.

Maybe have the second part could apply for injuries in general, 50% heals fast and 50% heals slower.

If the forever lasting damage is to high, it would feel like you just messed up your whole run by getting attacked by a bear once, that would not be fun.

[bethany]

Interesting ideas, guys. Thanks for sharing!

[cowboymrh]

If the forever lasting damage is to high, it would feel like you just messed up your whole run by getting attacked by a bear once, that would not be fun.

Yes, it would take some "mental adjustments" to get used to shorter runs, but I think it would add much more challenge to the game. And if it does "mess up your whole run" ........ so be it! The idea is to make the game "tougher and more true to life" after all.

I read every day in the forums how experienced players are no longer "afraid of wolves and bears".

I've even read stories in the forums about players who "strip naked" to fight wolves so they don't damage clothing. IN REALITY, who in their right mind would do such a thing?

Losing permanent condition would change this mind set and bring back the "fear factor" once again to the game, even for experienced players.

To me....... this would be a 'SIMPLE FIX" for the DEVS and the easiest way to make the game more challenging while shortening the 1000 day runs!!

It's a big difference when you face down a wolf with 60% permanent condition instead of 100% condition!!

There's nothing like a little "genuine fear" to alleviate the mid game repetitiveness.

[druffzilla]

I agree with you, and a bear attack with ~90% health loss would leave ~4-5% forever lasting damage and the next 25 days you would run around with even lower health and you have to be more afraid of getting attacked. This would already leave quite a impact on the playstyle I think.

And I see this is as as big problem too:

I've even read stories in the forums about players who "strip naked" to fight wolves so they don't damage clothing. IN REALITY, who in their right mind would do such a thing?

But to solve this, wolf attacks should be simply more devastating when having no clothes or clothes in bad shape with less then 50% condition in average. Maybe twice as much basic damage when your clothes are in bad shape and three times when you don't wear clothes at all, then you would take a good amount of damage already which will possibly leave you with permanent damage.

And I think this would stack real fast, I'm thinking about other injuries then bites too.

In the beginning, especially in Stalker, it happens quite often that your condition drops low because of low temperature, in reality you would possibly loose a part of your ears or some toes so a permanent damage would make sense there too.

[cowboymrh]

wolf attacks should be simply more devastating when having no clothes or clothes in bad shape with less then 50% condition in average. Maybe twice as much basic damage when your clothes are in bad shape and three times when you don't wear clothes at all, then you would take a good amount of damage already which will possibly leave you with permanent damage.

Fully agree!

[Pegasus2]

I don't like the idea of permenent damage but you could cap the heal to 80% or so for the next 2 days, then 90% for the next two after than before reaching 100% again.

[jackattack]

Sounds like an idea for Stalker mode.

[Eachna]

I like the idea too but I think it should be more complex.

I've been bitten by animals a lot, never by a wolf though but cat and dog bites for example.

Equating being mauled by a bear or bitten by a wolf to pulling a feral cat out of a hole is silly.

Being mauled by a brown bear is crippling to deadly. Even a little black bear can be deadly. A wolf's head takes up the same volume (roughly) as a feral cat.

That was one of the nastiest bites I ever had, it got infected too, my whole hand swell and I couldn't use it for a couple of days, it was very painful to move the fingers even after a few weeks, but today, a few years later there are only scars left...

So you had a useless hand for a few days, and then a few weeks where the hand was at something like 75-80% condition, and only after even more time did it return to 100%. This is from an animal whose mouth wouldn't open wide enough to bite a fully gloved/mittened hand.

Scale that up for a wolf.

Anyway, my point is forever lasting damage is rare, if you don't get big pieces of meat ripped out, bones shattered or sinews cut you will probably discover from it completely.

You're completely overlooking joint and nerve damage with that list. Also losing individual fingers. Good luck operating a can opener (or using a knife to pry open a can) when you've just lost your thumb.

"Forever lasting damage" is very common with a brown bear. In fact, SURVIVING a mauling by a brown bear is the rare exception. Please note the word "mauling". Most people who talk about surviving bear attacks mean surviving an "encounter" with a bear where the bear (at most) just charges and doesn't come into physical contact with them.

Being bitten by a full-sized timber wolf is different from being bitten by a wide range of dogs. It (of course) depends on the breed and the dog's intentions. A Pekinese does not have the bite strength of a pit bull, no matter how angry it may be. It's possible to be bitten by a pit bull and only have a minor injury as a result. Something people overlook dealing with feral cats/dogs is that they're still cats/dogs. If they've had any exposure at all to humans they understand that people are not fundamentally threatening, they're just "annoying". Animals behave differently when they're at risk of being harassed vs. at risk of death (and they understand the difference).

In a game where animals are attacking with the same mindless fury as zombies (without being zombies), you can't judge them based on experiences with real counterparts (or feral cousins).

Recovering from other injuries (severe burns, freezing, hypothermia) is not as simple as swallowing pill and/or taking a nap. Even a sprained ankle should keep you from sprinting (I mean even after you take the pain killer).

If the forever lasting damage is to high, it would feel like you just messed up your whole run by getting attacked by a bear once, that would not be fun.

If you get attacked by a bear the run should be either be "over" or leave you close to crippled, not just leave you with 3% permanent damage.

With no training ...

* And no medical facilities

* And scavenged gear that appears to be years old

* And the mental drain of complete isolation

* And in a completely unfamiliar location

... you should not be punching a bear in the face with your fists and "winning".

[cowboymrh]

Here is my point: I'm looking for a "right away" fix to the game that could be implemented by the DEVS easily, and with the absolute least amount of "programming", but would dramatically change the game.

Everything you need to make the change is already in place for the DEVS.

Here's how I would do it:

I would make 10% of the damage caused by animal attacks "permanent and lasting"

Say your condition is 100% and you get attacked by a wolf. The wolf causes 30% damage to your condition.

I would take 10% of that damage, (3%) and make it permanent! So when you heal, you only heal to 97%.

Say you get attacked by a bear next. He causes 60% damage but somehow you are lucky enough to survive.

The permanent lasting damage from the bear attack would be 6%. Subtract that from the 97% of your max condition and now you are down to 91%.

Each attack would drop your permanent condition a little bit more, and more, and more.

For Stalker mode..... You could let that condition just keep dropping all the way to 0% .....then you're dead.

For Voyage mode, ..... you could stop the lasting damage effect at 50%.

I believe if this were implemented, You would never hear the words "THIS GAME IS TOO EASY" ....again!!

In combination with this idea, one other thing I would do is greatly reduce the percentage of times that decoys work on wolves. For Stalker mode ..... I would have it so decoys only work about 25% of the time. On Voyager mode, about 50% of the time.

What would really be cool is if the wolf "looked" like he was going for the decoy, ......... then at the last minute growled and charged at you instead!! LOL ...... talk about making you jump out of your seat! :shock:

[druffzilla]

Eachna, I never compared a cat bite with a bear attack...

And you're right, the wolfs probably attack with the intention to kill you and therefor make more damage then a dog would do when you steal his play ball, I didn't mean to say wolf/dog bites are not dangerous...

But if you don't struggle with a wolf to long, the damage done could be comparable with a simple dog bite.

My point was simply that most wounds, unless they are devastating, will heal completely.

I never wanted to say that bear attacks are something you should survive either, maybe have a small chance for Stalker that you can get killed by one.

When I think about this whole forever lasting damage thing I always think about frostbite too, freezing happens, at least on stalker, to me a lot more often then animal attacks. In the beginning you would have such huge impacts on your overall condition that you would maybe keep starting the game over and over to try to get good clothing straight away.

[cowboymrh]

Let me give you a quick example of how this concept (Lasting permanent damage) would affect the game:

Right now, I'm in the midst of a 450 day run on voyager mode. I haven't been attacked by a bear, but I've been attacked by wolves around 15 to 20 times. If you assume that the damage caused by the average wolf attack is around 30% condition loss, and took 10% of that and made it permanent (3%), my maximum healed permanent condition right now would be somewhere between 55% to 40%.

In fact, I would have died 100 days ago when I got trapped out in a blizzard harvesting a deer, and my condition was down to 30% from 100% by the time I made it to shelter.

Point is: having your permanent condition drop from animal attacks will change the entire way you look at the game. It will most certainly make it tougher and more challenging.

I personally believe that the DEVS main goal in the game regarding wolves was to have you be afraid of them and have you cautiously work around them or avoid them all together.

As it is now, experienced players go out and purposely hunt them without fear which is not how it would be in a REAL LIFE survival situation.

Lasting permanent damage would make wolves something to be feared again.

[Foxen]

...As it is now, experienced players go out and purposely hunt them without fear which is not how it would be in a REAL LIFE survival situation...

Yeah...and you wouldn't drink as much as you can at a time...and you wouldn't eat the complete piece of meat you're carrying at a time...and you wouldn't just 'run in a circle' around the point where your plane has crashed...and so many other things you wouldn'even think about in a REAL LIFE survival situation...but we do in the game...

...that's why it's called game...you know...and that's why it's even more important to stop thinking of it as a REAL LIFE simulation all the time!

It has to be fun to PLAY it...not to be 'as realistic as could be'.

[FINDarkside]

...that's why it's called game...you know...and that's why it's even more important to stop thinking of it as a REAL LIFE simulation all the time!

It has to be fun to PLAY it...not to be 'as realistic as could be'.

That's really bad argument. Everytime someone says that something is not realistic someone responds with "well this is a game". Following that logic we could say that aliens would be fine since this is just a game. Or are you really saying that you wouldn't want wolves to actually be a threat, instead of just being food running straight at you?

I'm not saying that the game should be 100% realistic, but if realistic is better in some case, obviously I wish it would be that way.

[Foxen]

Try seeing that the other way around:

Every time anyone has 'such a super cool Idea...to make the game better...it's at some Point reasoned by telling everybody that '...in RL one would...'.

So what now?

It's always the same story...

...and btw:

I wouldn't mind if there were aliens in the game...somthing(one) must have caused this bad 'event' :twisted: :lol:

[FINDarkside]

Try seeing that the other way around:

Every time anyone has 'such a super cool Idea...to make the game better...it's at some Point

Well you didn't have a super cool idea, since you didn't have any idea. I don't really like the idea of permanent damage, after all that's not realistic either, heals wound till certain point. However you were not even replying to the idea of permanent damage, you were replying to the message where cowboymrh said that the current system is not good.

BTW, thinking about how easy something is to implement while making suggestion is not too good idea. You don't know how the game works and you don't know whether something is easy or not. And obviously the easy way is usually not the best way, this game would be crap if hinterland had chosen easy way to every problem.

If you think that you are good at guessing the work needed, what if I told you that adding permanent damage would require more than 10 times more code than adding the ability to stack items?

[Foxen]

Hmmm....did you miss something...or did I???

I haven't said anything about the fact that something would be 'the easy way' or would be 'easy to implement'!

That must have been someone else...so why are you yelling at me!?!??

And btw. sure I have some 'really supercool Ideas that would make the game better'...for me!

But I don't write down in a Forum every little thing that comes to my mind about getting something to be 'better' thats bothering me...and then tell everyone '...because in RL...'.

But that's my hole point:

As said...it's the same story every time...'but in RL'...just try to look at it the other way around...that's all I said.

Does everything have to be 'like in RL'?

I don't think so...

And to stay to the Topic:

I (just as you...) don't think that this would be a good Idea because of the same Reasons you've already explained.

I don't think it would change anything in the behavior of players...it would just let them rage more when they died caused by this mechanic...

[cowboymrh]

And btw. sure I have some 'really supercool Ideas that would make the game better'...for me!

But I don't write down in a Forum every little thing that comes to my mind about getting something to be 'better' thats bothering me...and then tell everyone '...because in RL...'.

I'm pretty sure this area of the forum is called ALPHA PLAYTEST FEEDBACK which means: We play the game and render suggestions about things we like and what we would change.

If you have "Ideas" .... post them. This is the place to do it.

Sorry if it "offends you" that someone might want to make the game more similar to "real life". But in all honesty, that sounds more like your problem than mine.

For me, the fact that this game "is" very much what a real life survival situation would be like, is what attracts me to it.

If you want aliens and zombies ..... there's tons of un-imaginative mindless shooters out there that I'm sure would make you very happy.

I personally, really enjoy reading the different ideas of the players who love this game. I don't agree with all of them, but I like that they want to have a part in improving a game that they really care about, like me.

And I especially like the fact that the DEVS value our input ..... whether they like the idea or not.

[cowboymrh]

cowboymrh said that the current system is not good.

BTW, thinking about how easy something is to implement while making suggestion is not too good idea. You don't know how the game works and you don't know whether something is easy or not. And obviously the easy way is usually not the best way, this game would be crap if hinterland had chosen easy way to every problem.

If you think that you are good at guessing the work needed, what if I told you that adding permanent damage would require more than 10 times more code than adding the ability to stack items?

Fin ...... I DID NOT say the current system is not good..... ever.

I love the game overall, but am suggesting ideas that address the very common opinion by most experienced players that the "game is too easy" and that "they are not afraid of wolves anymore".

You are right that I don't know the amount of programming needed to implement my suggestion of "lasting damage", but I'm pretty sure the DEVS would cut me a little slack on that statement knowing that I'm probably not a game programmer.

[FINDarkside]

Fin ...... I DID NOT say the current system is not good..... ever.

I only meant the damage system, maybe it was a bit too strong word for what I meant, I just didn't pay too much attention to the wording.. I only meant that Foxen didn't say that your idea was bad, he said that the whole idea of making it more realistic was bad.

You are right that I don't know the amount of programming needed to implement my suggestion of "lasting damage", but I'm pretty sure the DEVS would cut me a little slack on that statement knowing that I'm probably not a game programmer.

My only point was that if you have good ideas, you shouldn't be shy to tell them even if they probably need a lot of work. After all Hinterland decides what they will do and it's easier to change complex idea to more simple one than it is to change simple idea to a complex one.

Hmmm....did you miss something...or did I???

I haven't said anything about the fact that something would be 'the easy way' or would be 'easy to implement'!

That must have been someone else...so why are you yelling at me!?!??

Why do you think that I'm yelling? That part wasn't for you anyway

[Foxen]

...Sorry if it "offends you" that someone might want to make the game more similar to "real life". But in all honesty, that sounds more like your problem than mine.

For me, the fact that this game "is" very much what a real life survival situation would be like, is what attracts me to it.

Sure...and that's fine!

My apologies if it sounded like I meant you in person, that wasn't meant personally!

I'm just honestly fed up with reading that '...the game isn't like in RL...because...blub...but it should be like in RL...' as a Reason to change /add anything in nearly every second Post that's in the Forum.

Sure the game is 'leaned to' something that could happen in Reality...but in the end it's a game and no RL-Survival-Simulator.

I said that several times...and I say that again (to all Players!):

PLS! Stop thinking of TLD as a RL-Survival-Simulator and start asking yourself if something in it really has to be like in RL to enjoy it.

If you want aliens and zombies ..... there's tons of un-imaginative mindless shooters out there that I'm sure would make you very happy.

I do play games with aliens...that's for sure...but what I wrote was meant as a 'why not-Case' and no serious Idea to implement it to the game

Why do you think that I'm yelling? That part wasn't for you anyway

That one was more meant as a joke...just forgot to set the Smileys, sry...here they are: :shock: :lol:

Didn't really take that personally

[jolynsbass]

Not to interrupt the "banter", just chiming in on this one.

I agree with the idea that having lasting damage would be a great addition to the game (at least in Stalker, and even to as limited degree in Voyager mode.) If each hand-to-hand encounter with a wild animal resulted in one step closer to death, it would definitely change the perspective of those who charge in, and make them rely a lot more on actual survival instincts: avoiding physical conflict/damage when possible, whether by evasion or use of long-range weapons.

[Hesha]

I'm just honestly fed up with reading that '...the game isn't like in RL...because...blub...but it should be like in RL...' as a Reason to change /add anything in nearly every second Post that's in the Forum.

Sure the game is 'leaned to' something that could happen in Reality...but in the end it's a game and no RL-Survival-Simulator.

I said that several times...and I say that again (to all Players!):

PLS! Stop thinking of TLD as a RL-Survival-Simulator and start asking yourself if something in it really has to be like in RL to enjoy it.

Sorry to hear about your exasperation with this, but I'm afraid you will keep hearing this argument. Many people want exactly that, a survival simulator. And at the moment TLD is the closest thing to that in existence.

I don't care for gamey elements in a game like this at all (as my two threads so far will have illustrated). This game clearly tries to simulate a real life situation and the more closely it emulates reality, the more interesting it becomes for me (and others). You seem to prefer TLD to be more on the gamey side of the spectrum, I prefer it to be more on the simulation side of the scale. All we can do is try to sway Hinterland to develop the game into the direction we prefer and be civil about it.

On topic: I wouldn't like automatic permanent damage, but a chance for it would be okay. After all there is no professional medical care and a lost eye, for example, is irreparable. To me torn clothing is punishment enough for taking on a wolf with just my knife in order to conserve ammo.